A Literal Theistic Evolutionary Reading of Genesis 1

Jamsie

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Bring forth in verse 11 is a different word than bring forth used in verse 24.

Post 95 points that out.

Still baling so a little time for a quick response. It doesn't matter that the words are different as the intent is the same. The decree is to the land not to the vegetation just as it is to the land not to the living creatures. I addressed this with you (or Johan) elsewhere, 1:24 wouldn't say Let the land sprout living creatures...would it? So we are still dealing with the same intent and there is absolutely no immediacy indicated. Remember, God ordained processes ...why do you refuse to accept then as now?
 
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-57

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I don't have time to defend what I am about to quickly suggest...perhaps briefly tomorrow. If God did use a process to bring forth humanity he clearly, as we discussed his ability to intervene, could have taken Adam and placed him in the garden separating him and then creating Eve. I personally don't put much emphasis on this because whether by a pure act of creation or by separating Adam, with the "breath of life", from the "population" still original sin" or the "fall" would still be completely viable either way. Sorry would have to address another time....

If Adam was taken from the evolving population....which isn't in the bible....given the breath of life...which made a living creature a living creature doesn't make much sense.
Still, what of the others? The rest of the population. Surely their offspring would still be around today in an unfallen state.

On the other hand, if Adam was a pure act of creation..why not the plants and other animals mentioned in Genesis? Why is one part literal and another part not?
 
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-57

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Still baling so a little time for a quick response. It doesn't matter that the words are different as the intent is the same. The decree is to the land not to the vegetation just as it is to the land not to the living creatures. I addressed this with you (or Johan) elsewhere, 1:24 wouldn't say Let the land sprout living creatures...would it? So we are still dealing with the same intent and there is absolutely no immediacy indicated. Remember, God ordained processes ...why do you refuse to accept then as now?


Why 2 different words? Your problem is now trying to make both words speak of evolution. Considering the problem you are having with just one word....the second word really screws up your theory.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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HI Jamsie,
I was just reading along in Gen 1 and 2, trying to come to terms with the facts of science and the Word, and these words just leapt out at me.
A couple thoughts in reviewing your excellent post.
I believe each of the commands were each made on their own individual day. 6 individual commands spoke on 6 individual days.
Individual days, but not necessarily consecutive days. There were many many days in between each individual creative day.
God spoke the command, but the elements of that command were not necessarily fulfilled completely on that day. We may differ on this. You might say He, by a word or command, empowered and set the process into motion on that day of creation. How long it took to actually come to completion we cannot know. Could have been millions of years.
Also these days were sequential, but not consecutive.

For example, I have had 5 graduation days in my educational career:
On the first graduation day I graduated from Kindergarten.
On the second graduation day I graduated from elementary school.
On the third graduation day I graduated from middle school.
On the forth graduation day I graduated from high school.
On the fifth graduation day, I graduated from college.
Of course these days did not occur one after the other, but one did follow the other in sequence. There were many 24 hour days between each graduation day, but I think you may see what I mean. Again, we may differ here.

So you might say"
First creative Day — light and time (Gen 1:3-5);
Many non-creative days later,
Second creative Day — the sky and “separated” waters (Gen 1:6-8);
Many non-creative days later,
Third creative Day dry ground, bodies of water, and plants (Gen 1:9-13);
Many non-creative days later,
Forth creative Day — the sun, moon, stars, and planets (Gen 1:14-19);
Many non-creative days later,
Fifth creative Day 5 — fish and birds (Gen 1:20-23);
Many non-creative days later,
Sixth creative Day — land animals and humans (Gen 1:24-30; 2:7,15-25).

Again, not really putting this up for debate... just the thoughts of a seeker of truth.
I thought I would insert this from my perspective if you haven't been following:

First a general look at Genesis 1 and it’s construction. “And God said, ...” clearly this establishes that all of creation was actualized by God’s spoken command or fiat. Each day begins with those very words, so that the commands of God were the source of all creation, the sole and only operative agent. (Psalm 33:6 – Heb. 11:3 – 2 Peter 3:5) One will also note that His commands were all sufficient certainly requiring no further action on God’s part.

So if God's commands are the sole agency of creation it would be logical that what follows the fiat must be explanatory. As noted the efficacy of the command would involve the fulfillment. Any "It was so" would establish the fulfillment based solely on his decree. The structure would strongly suggest that there is a command(s), fulfillment, explanatory comments, and the particular day.

“And God said, let the land produce...”. (or "let the land bring forth/produce vegetation" or "Let the water bring forth/teem with...") ..."Understanding as we do that the command is the sole operative agency then one can’t help but notice that the command/fiat is directed not to living creatures, vegetation, birds but to the land/water. Gen. 1:24 speaks to the mediate creation of animals as we know that animals like “man” were created from the “dust” of the earth/land. Earth/Land/Dust being a pre-existing material (creatio ex materia) thus at one level clearly mediate creation. The passage avoids “let there be living creatures...” or let there be vegetation", etc. but again if the command itself is the sole operative then it is quite plain what God is commanding...the land/water. Is it not possible that God set in motion at the beginning all of the "laws" for the incipient powers, elements, material, etc. as to the natural processes of phenomena to be produced... as we see today?

As to the age of the earth question what prohibits each day to be based upon the decree invoked without reference to the time for the fiat to be ultimately manifested? I believe 2 Peter 3:8 is figurative not literal with the intent to assert that God is timeless, so why do we attempt to put time limits on him? So in six days God created everything, not necessary to be consecutive, not necessary to be of specific duration...each day represents the fiat(s). Some call it the "creation week" the Bible does not.
*****
You and I seem to be of the same general page and I'm curious how you arrived at your perspective or interpretation? Unfortunately I had lost all of my original notes from quite a few years of study and only have discussion posts remaining.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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Why is there a need for many non-creative days?
Just like there is a need for many non-graduate days between each graduation. Takes time to actually do the work leading up to the graduation day. It also takes time for the commands to come into fulfillment.
 
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-57

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Just like there is a need for many non-graduate days between each graduation. Takes time to actually do the work leading up to the graduation day. It also takes time for the commands to come into fulfillment.

Why do the commands need such a long time to come to fulfillment?

Secondly if you're trying to say the days represent a long time for evolution to work....your analogy needs to to graduate middleschool before kindergarten as the bible is out of the order inwhich the evo's say things evolved.

Theistic evolutionism adds many problems to Genesis as well as other portions of the bible.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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Why do the commands need such a long time to come to fulfillment?

Secondly if you're trying to say the days represent a long time for evolution to work....your analogy needs to to graduate middleschool before kindergarten as the bible is out of the order inwhich the evo's say things evolved.

Theistic evolutionism adds many problems to Genesis as well as other portions of the bible.
One could ask why did the fig tree take so long to dry up from the roots? This is just the way the God kind of faith works. You may not see the results immediately. If God commanded the earth to sprout forth plants... how long would that take? I am a gardener. I plant seeds and it make take two weeks before the sprouts "come forth." As to why God chose to do it this way... He may tell us one day. As far as I know the scripture does not tell us why.
 
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-57

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One could ask why did the fig tree take so long to dry up from the roots? This is just the way the God kind of faith works. You may not see the results immediately. If God commanded the earth to sprout forth plants... how long would that take? I am a gardener. I plant seeds and it make take two weeks before the sprouts "come forth." As to why God chose to do it this way... He may tell us one day. As for as I know the scripture does not tell us why.
Jonah 4:6 Now the LORD God appointed a plant and made it come up over Jonah, that it might be a shade over his head, to save him from his discomfort. So Jonah was exceedingly glad because of the plant.
....10 But the LORD said, “You cared about the plant, which you neither tended nor made grow. It sprang up in a night and perished in a night.
 
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Jamsie

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Jonah 4:6 Now the LORD God appointed a plant and made it come up over Jonah, that it might be a shade over his head, to save him from his discomfort. So Jonah was exceedingly glad because of the plant.
....10 But the LORD said, “You cared about the plant, which you neither tended nor made grow. It sprang up in a night and perished in a night.

Once again as you were previously shown you are attempting to use a singular miraculous incident and expand it to all of the creation account. One example that refutes such was posed with the question did all animals talk because of Balaam's donkey? There are many examples of God's one time miraculous interventions but attempting to somehow link them to the laws of nature that he established at the beginning fails. Do we see plants, trees, shrubs grow up in a night...and perish the next?
 
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-57

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Once again as you were previously shown you are attempting to use a singular miraculous incident and expand it to all of the creation account. One example that refutes such was posed with the question did all animals talk because of Balaam's donkey? There are many examples of God's one time miraculous interventions but attempting to somehow link them to the laws of nature that he established at the beginning fails. Do we see plants, trees, shrubs grow up in a night...and perish the next?
Do we see talking donkeys?
 
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Jamsie

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Just trying to reply to this...
You will note the question mark, so it was a question to you. Since you believe that one can extract verses from various parts of the Bible (Jonah) and apply them to Genesis then I asked the same by extracting a verse (Numbers) and willy-nilly applying it to Genesis. Hopefully you can see that that tactic fails.... that's all!
 
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You will note the question mark, so it was a question to you. Since you believe that one can extract verses from various parts of the Bible (Jonah) and apply them to Genesis then I asked the same by extracting a verse (Numbers) and willy-nilly applying it to Genesis. Hopefully you can see that that tactic fails.... that's all!
No, I was just presenting an instance where God mad a plant quickly. Then I said this is what I thought God did on day 3.
 
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The first day was eternity past plus the first day of creation.
It seems to me that Day 1 begins with the words "Then God said ..." in Gen 1:3 ... by which time "the heavens and the earth" were already in existence (v.1).

In that case, the "six days" were a subset of the total creation.
 
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Ragdoll

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Genesis 1....the light God created here is not physical...it is His presence manifested against the darkness and void.
On the 4th day God created the sun, moon, and stars...He said let their be lights (plural)
And they shall divide day from night (not darkness) and they shall be for signs, and seasons, and for days and for years.
He created 2 great lights...one to rule by day and the lesser by night.
This is also when the measurement of time began. Up to that point time did not exist as we know it.

While God is light, the light God created was not Himself. There are no ancient scholars who interpret the light as God creating Himself.
275243364_674306223896770_6663977415115957738_n.jpg
 
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I am a geophysicist who worked 47 years in the oil business. I have always felt that YECs were correct that the Bible needs to be true, but their way to make it 'true' actually makes it false. Those who accepted science strangely would proclaim the Bible devoid of scientific information but then proclaim that we should believe the Bible is God's word. But that is a God who is clueless about what happened at creation. I will put up my view of Day 1 but the full write up can be found at the link below.

I hold to a Days of Proclamation view, where Genesis 1 is the pre-temporal planning for the universe. Nothing was created in Genesis 1. By making it pre-temporal, we avoid huge mis-matches between the order of events in Genesis 1 and the order of events in Geology. Anyway, here is day 1 and the link is below:

Proclamation 1

Genesis 1:3.
Proclamation: Then God said, “Let there be light”;
Human writer's addenda: "and there was light".
Information from what isn't said: It doesn't say "and there was light instantly"

The account has God saying "Let there be light"; it doesn't have Him saying "Let there be light and there was light". That would make no sense. The phrase, "and there was light", is the editorial statement of the human author. "Let there be light" is the statement of God; "and it was so" is the statement of the human writer.. This is how the Days of Proclamation view approaches each of the proclamations in Genesis. Remember, this is the pre-temporal planning of the universe. The 'and there was light' was added to the account maybe billions of years after the proclamation.

Pre-temporal is both a logical and an old view.

Is viewing Genesis 1 as pre-temporal sensible? Absolutely it is. No matter whether one believes all of Genesis 1 is pre-temporal planning of the universe, or believes these statements immediately created the light, part of this first proclamation is pre-temporal. When God said 'Let', there still was no light, time or space. When God said 'be' there still was no light, time or space. The first part of this sentence is clearly a pre-temporal event until the sentence is finished and light comes into being. So even if one rejects the Days of Proclamation view which has all of Genesis 1 as pre-temporal planning, there is no getting around the fact that the first creative proclamation was stated logically prior to the universe's existence. So why not take a look at how a pre-temporal interpretation of Genesis 1 improves the fit between science and the Bible. Secondly, both Christians and Jews have taken at least parts of this passage as pre-temporal. Nachmanides, a medieval Jewish rabbi, said the whole Torah was written prior to the creation of the world. He explains why Moses doesn't list himself as author:

"The reason for the Torah being written in this form [namely, the third person] is that it preceded the creation of the world, and needless to say, it preceded the birth of Moses our teacher.” 3

St. Basil, looking at Genesis 1:3-5, notes that there is an oddity in the account. Instead of saying "the first day," the Hebrew says "was one day." New American Standard translates it this way. The Hebrew word e-hat is the word for one, and it is translated everywhere else in the Bible as "one", "single", or "only", but never as first. Basil suggests that this day is connected with eternity past.

"If then the beginning of time is called one day rather than the first day, it is because Scripture wishes to establish its relationship with eternity. It was, in reality, fit and natural to call one the day whose character is to be one wholly separated and isolated from all the others."4

Earlier in his essay, St. Basil had presaged the above statement with:

"The birth of the world was preceded by a condition of things suitable for the exercise of supernatural powers, outstripping the limits of time, eternal and infinite."5

The first day was eternity past plus the first day of creation. With these two statements, St. Basil began the path to the Days of Proclamation view by making the first day, pre-temporal.

The Importance of Light in Genesis 1:3

Liberal Christians, by this I mean those who do not believe the early Genesis accounts contain history or scientific information. will often agree that Genesis 1:3 is historical and scientifically accurate. I am a physicist so Genesis 1:3 tells me much about nature. To me it is quite interesting that the pre-planning mentions light first. It is fundamental to the nature of the universe. It is implicit in the nature of light. When God called light into existence, we know that the velocity of light is measured in distance divided by time. Light's existence requires both time and space to exist. Because light travels in space-time and the shape of space-time is controlled by the gravitational field, we also know that gravity was in existence. General Relativity is about both gravity and the space-time that comes with it. Gravity is one of the fundamental forces in nature. Light is a form of radiation formed by time-varying electrical and magnetic fields so we know electromagnetism existed. . Further, since science shows that at high temperatures, electricity, magnetism and the weak force (responsible for radioactive decay) are all one force, we know the electroweak theory was in existence. To explain this a bit more, while at high temperatures, electromagnetism and the weak force are one, at our temperatures, they split into two different forces. This simple sentence "Let there be light," proves God was thinking about 3 of the 4 fundamental forces in the first planning event.

Science tells us that the first thing that came into existence in the big bang was light. The first 30-50,000 years after the big bang was an era dominated by radiation, called the radiation era. During the radiation era, it was too hot for quarks to condense and hold together to form particles. So, with the very first proclamation we know a lot about the universe. Thus with this simple statement we know that 3 of the 4 fundamental forces of nature are in existence, and we match what we know of the big bang. Thus, I think that proclamation is as true as is the Genesis 1:1.
The Migrant Mind: Days of Proclamation: Historical Reading of Genesis 1

I also used to interpret Genesis 1:3 as some sort of big bang like cosmology. I changed my view when I read the church fathers on the subject. I knew something was amiss with how I read Genesis Day 1.

Gen.1:1 - God creates the universe, electromagnetic energy and photons, matter and of course water. God is like the Great Carpenter, Who gets out his supplies before building planetary systems. This verse kicks off the first act of God's work of creation. The earth mentioned in this verse is in it's earliest fetal stages of creation.

Gen.1:2 - The earth is without form, shapeless and void. This earth has more in common with a bubble in a lava lamp than it does a spherical planet. God's Spirit moves over the watery blob of the earth. God is about to create something for the earth. Now if God decides to pull off some big bang so close to the earth, then the earth will be destroyed and water vaporized.

Gen.1:3 - God creates the earth's core. The earth is now becoming a living planet that can sustain life, as God created the earth for the purpose of being inhabited. The earth's core is the light of life to a planet where vast vegetation will grow and how the soil will provide nutrients to sustain all plant and tree life. And as the core begins to churn...

Job 38:14 - ...the earth takes shape like clay to the seal.

Gen.1:4-5 - These verses are traditionally understood as the earth's first full rotation as a spherical planet. God is creating the day-night cycle. The separation of light and darkness are guaged by the rotation of the earth. But this separation of light and darkness doesn't reach fruition until Day 4. God here is planning everything out in careful steps to assure that life will be sustained on earth. We know of no other planet that has life on it. God knows what He's doing. We have no scientists anywhere in the world who can build a planet.

Day 2 - God continues creating the earth. So there is no big bang cosmology in Genesis. Gen.1:3 is not a big bang nor can it be when God is moving over the earth, being close to the earth. Also, the earth was not created before the universe. God created both the universe and the earth on the same Day in the first verse of Day 1. And last, the big bang cosmology has sun, moon and stars right away. In Genesis, the sun, moon and stars were not created until Day 4, after the universe already existed. But the universe before Day 4 was a dark place.

COMMENTARY ON GENESIS CHAPTER ONE: A Scientific Harmonization of Creation Week | Christian Forums
 
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