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A Literal Reading: Genesis 1

Hentenza

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Gen 1:4 - And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.
Gen 1:8 - there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.
Gen 1:13 - there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.
Gen 1:19 - there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.
Gen 1:23 - there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.
Gen 1:31 - there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.

One "small" grammatical correction. The days here have an interesting pattern in the Hebrew which is not often reflected in English translations. The first day has a cardinal number (one, two, three, etc.) yom echad ( יֹ֥ום אֶחָֽד׃) which translates as day one. The others have ordinal numbers (second, third, fourth, etc.). Also, days 2-5 lack a definite article ( הַ, ha, the), while days 6 and 7 have one on the numeric. The literal translation of creation week would be day one, a second day, a third day, a fourth day, a fifth day, the sixth day, and the seventh day. :)
 
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cubinity

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One "small" grammatical correction. The days here have an interesting pattern in the Hebrew which is not often reflected in English translations. The first day has a cardinal number (one, two, three, etc.) yom echad ( יֹ֥ום אֶחָֽד׃) which translates as day one. The others have ordinal numbers (second, third, fourth, etc.). Also, days 2-5 lack a definite article ( הַ, ha, the), while days 6 and 7 have one on the numeric. The literal translation of creation week would be day one, a second day, a third day, a fourth day, a fifth day, the sixth day, and the seventh day. :)

Interesting. Thanks!
 
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cubinity

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Marked off, even though they refuted everything you have stated about Genesis 1.
<snip>
So the part of your perspective that you have given thus far has been answered. And all have to do with Genesis 1 in some fashion.

The only thing I am arguing in this thread is that one cannot use Genesis 1 to argue that creation was limited to approximately 168 hours, and thus one cannot use this text to refute scientific notions of an older-than-you'd-like-to-believe earth.

If you have anything that makes sense to refute that notion, please provide.

Otherwise, you will not be refuting the one thing about Genesis I am arguing here.

Thanks for your understanding. :thumbsup:
 
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miamited

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Gen 1:4 - And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.
Gen 1:8 - there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.
Gen 1:13 - there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.
Gen 1:19 - there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.
Gen 1:23 - there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.
Gen 1:31 - there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.

_______________________________________________________________________

Hi cubinity,

Yes, yes, I did, thankfully graduate through the third grade. I can read. I'm asking you to substantiate your claim that the author of Genesis explicitly understands 'there was evening and there was morning' as a transition from light to dark. That's all. So just tell me where you find this 'ancient definition' that evening and morning meant more to an all wise God who wrote, through His Spirit, the whole of the Scriptures to be explicitly defined as a transition from light to dark.

The God I know, knows all things. He knows the future and the end of all things. He actually gave Adam and Eve the ability to communicate and knows the definition of all words, even the ones that Adam and Eve didn't know. Like 'transubstantiation'. While God may or may not agree with the claim that there is such a device in the taking of communion, He knows what the word means.

So, let's just work this through logically. God knows on the day that He caused to be written the account of the beginning of the creation that man defines 'evening' and 'morning' as the last half of the day and the first half of the day, respectively, and that's what He wanted to convey to us, then He would have caused to be written, 'there was evening and there was morning...' as the descriptor of the 24 hour day just so we would know, for all the days of the creation that He wants you to know that it was just a regular day just like the ones you live in today.

You, are actually the one doing what you are accusing me of. You are reading the descriptor of 'evening and morning' and assigning to that your own, and quite obviously faulty, understanding that evening and morning refer to a transition of light and dark. It never has!!! Morning has always meant the first half of the day. By our modern time and by the numbered hours of the ancients, it is morning even before the sun ever show itself and evening, while not as clearly explained does technically, and has always, referred to the last half of the day.

Every day is divided into an evening and morning, or as we now think, a morning and then an evening, but nevertheless, these terms have no bearing on sunshine or darkness, but just the division of a day. You have a day and you have the shorter division of each day as a morning and evening. It is your own definition that allows that these terms refer to a transition of light and dark.

Go ahead, tomorrow, get up at 3am and go to your local 24 hour Walmart and I'll gaurantee you that every employee that greets you will say 'good morning'. Not 'good afternoon' or ' good evening' as it is the first half of the day. They will continue to greet you with 'good morning' until about noon. Test that theory.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
 
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cubinity

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Hi cubinity,

Yes, yes, I did, thankfully graduate through the third grade. I can read.
<snip>

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

Oh, I see.

Yes, well, there is this little description in the text of how the first day goes:

And God said, &#8220;Let there be light,&#8221; and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light &#8220;day,&#8221; and the darkness he called &#8220;night.&#8221; And there was evening, and there was morning&#8212;the first day. - Genesis 1:3

You see, I took all that to mean that this was how the text was describing the content of a day. I didn't realize there was so much to it than that! How could I have not considered the input of the fine folks working graveyard at the Walmart :doh:?

My apologies if I've misunderstood something about what was being communicated there in the text, just because I have different shopping habits than your God foresaw me having.

Btw, congrats on the reading and the graduating. Truly amazing accomplishments, indeed.

Oh, and the fine folks of Walmart say hi. :wave:
 
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theFijian

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How about the fact that the key mechanism needed for common descent is non-existent?
Just so we can be sure you have the first clue what you're talking about what would that key mechanism be? Have you even demonstrated that it is non-existent
How about the fact that the pearly gates in Heaven did not wait a billion years for clams to produce them,
:doh: Where to begin? These are not natural pearls; these are not even literal pearls!
and therefore dating techniques are all but obsolete no matter how accurate they are? (anolagy intended)
What's an 'anolagy'? Did you mean 'analogy'? Did you mean 'pun intented'? There was neither an analogy nor a pun in what you wrote.

How about where the moon is located in distance and how fast it is moving away from Earth?
Quelle surprise now you roll out the PRATTS.

CE110: Moon Receding
How Good are those Young-Earth Arguments: Hovind's 'Proofs'

How about the rate of decaying magnetism of the Earth not being able to comply with a multi-billlion year old planet?

CD701: Decay of Earth's magnetic field
How Good are those Young-Earth Arguments: Hovind's 'Proofs'

There are many things, but it is just a natural human instinct to neglect what doesn't correspond to what they want to believe.

So this is why you are not a TE; your natural instinct is to neglect what doesn't correspond with what you want to believe. Thanks for clearing that up :thumbsup:
 
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Assyrian

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One "small" grammatical correction. The days here have an interesting pattern in the Hebrew which is not often reflected in English translations. The first day has a cardinal number (one, two, three, etc.) yom echad ( &#1497;&#1465;&#1445;&#1493;&#1501; &#1488;&#1462;&#1495;&#1464;&#1469;&#1491;&#1475;) which translates as day one. The others have ordinal numbers (second, third, fourth, etc.). Also, days 2-5 lack a definite article ( &#1492;&#1463;, ha, the), while days 6 and 7 have one on the numeric. The literal translation of creation week would be day one, a second day, a third day, a fourth day, a fifth day, the sixth day, and the seventh day.
smile.gif
Wouldn't 'one day' be a better translation of yom echad?

Gen 33:13 But Jacob said to him, "My lord knows that the children are frail, and that the nursing flocks and herds are a care to me. If they are driven hard for one day, all the flocks will die.
Num 11:19 You shall not eat just one day, or two days, or five days, or ten days, or twenty days,
1Sam 9:15 Now the day before [YLT one day before] Saul came, the LORD had revealed to Samuel:
Jonah 3:4 Jonah began to go into the city, going a day's journey [YLT a journey of one day]. And he called out, "Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!"
 
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Hentenza

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Wouldn't 'one day' be a better translation of yom echad?

Gen 33:13 But Jacob said to him, "My lord knows that the children are frail, and that the nursing flocks and herds are a care to me. If they are driven hard for one day, all the flocks will die.
Num 11:19 You shall not eat just one day, or two days, or five days, or ten days, or twenty days,
1Sam 9:15 Now the day before [YLT one day before] Saul came, the LORD had revealed to Samuel:
Jonah 3:4 Jonah began to go into the city, going a day's journey [YLT a journey of one day]. And he called out, "Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!"

Not for a direct literal translation which is what I posted in the post that you quoted. The Hebrew sentence construction places echad after yom. The construction is the same for the other verses that you cited. Translators place words in what they think would be the most legible form. For example, in Jonah 3:4 the direct translation would be "Then began Jonah to go through the city walk day one.........". Most translation render the portion of the verse as "a day day's journey or walk" or "one day's journey or walk" for readability purposes. Whether one places one before or after day does not alter the limitation on the verb which is that the action takes a maximum of one day. In Genesis the duration is further qualified as one evening and one morning defining the action as one whole, natural cyclical day.
 
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Assyrian

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Not for a direct literal translation which is what I posted in the post that you quoted. The Hebrew sentence construction places echad after yom. The construction is the same for the other verses that you cited. Translators place words in what they think would be the most legible form. For example, in Jonah 3:4 the direct translation would be "Then began Jonah to go through the city walk day one.........". Most translation render the portion of the verse as "a day day's journey or walk" or "one day's journey or walk" for readability purposes. Whether one places one before or after day does not alter the limitation on the verb which is that the action takes a maximum of one day. In Genesis the duration is further qualified as one evening and one morning defining the action as one whole, natural cyclical day.
It is not just a case of translators putting the words in the most legible order and form, word order matters. Simply translating each word and leaving them in the same order is not a proper translation, which needs to take account of the meaning of the word order in both languages. The order is much more important in English, where 'day one' is an idiomatic way of saying 'the first day'. On the other hand when we say 'one day', it refers either to the length of a day as you pointed out, or refers to a particular day without saying when the day was. One day I went to the beach... I am not sure that the order of the day and number matters that much in Hebrew
Jer 42:7 At the end of ten days, writes it 'ten days', while
Dan 1:15 At the end of ten days, writes 'days ten'.
Though there seems to be a tendency is to put the number after day for one day and put the number in front of days for the higher numbers.

However You seem to have the same range of meanings in Hebrew, Jonah's 'journey of one day' was as you said the distance you could travel in one day. On the other hand, in 1Samuel 27:1 Then David said in his heart, "Now I shall perish one day by the hand of Saul, did not mean how would only be dead for a day, but that some day, Saul was eventually going to kill him.

So, which are we talking about in Genesis 1? It hardly refer to the duration of a day, since neither evening or morning are a day long. You also find the same construction with the other days, with "and there was evening and there was morning an nth day" pointing to the days when the evening and morning happened, not how long they took. But just as 'it happened one day' is a lot vaguer than 'it happened the first day', so is 'it happened a second day'. "It happened the second day" would mean the very next day. Leaving out the definite article is a lot vaguer. It could be a second day some time later, or simply another day, a different one to the one mentioned before.

What is interesting is comparing the days in Genesis to all the other lists of numbered days in the bible, lists which do refer to a series of consecutive days. In all the other lists the first day either isn't numbered, or it is called the first day, with rishon and the definite article. The following days are, 'the second day...', 'the third day...', 'the fourth day...' Genesis doesn't follow the standard biblical way of describing consecutive day, which raises the question are they meant to be taken consecutively, or was 'one day' simply one day after days or aeons had passed in which God created the heavens and the earth, was 'a second day' another day, days or vast ages after that?
 
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Sum1sGruj

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The only thing I am arguing in this thread is that one cannot use Genesis 1 to argue that creation was limited to approximately 168 hours, and thus one cannot use this text to refute scientific notions of an older-than-you'd-like-to-believe earth.

If you have anything that makes sense to refute that notion, please provide.

Otherwise, you will not be refuting the one thing about Genesis I am arguing here.

Thanks for your understanding. :thumbsup:

Well, I have resolved the sun, the Sabbath, and the day issue., so why stop there, right?

There is all the philosophy and logic in the world, and yet people choose to go on material logic to explain how the Almighty God created the universe.

You see all these creationist claims that have been 'refuted' by science, but how have they been refuted? Because someone came up with a material explanation that, no matter how unlikely it may be, must conclude that is the way they theorize it? It's a bullying concept. Science simply claims anything and everything for itself, prescribes it's brand of logic an ideas, and tells creationists to eff off, pretty much. But the truth is that the evidence for creationism is everywhere. It just depends on what pair of eyes you are perceiving everything with.

The fact of the matter is that creationists have a base. Science does not. Nothing is truly 'empirical' until all is shown to be true. For example, look at the horizon problem with the Big Bang. Now, the Big Bang theory has many hints that such an event happened, but it has multiple issues with the horizon issue towering above them all.
It's actually absurd to front the idea as true, because it clearly is just a common belief that is lacking in several ways. (which echoes certain other theories as well)

If one cannot solve the problem, then everything after it is obsolete. The distance of light travel through billions of years is obsolete, for example.
In all actuality, the fact that the universe is uniform is really evidence for Creation. And if material reason takes a mighty purge in that respect, why stop at that point? Why not take it a step further and actually heed the Bible?

See, what would you think, hypothetically, if common descent happened to be proven false? Would your material reasoning not shift? And if so, would it even be sensible to continue with material logic?
That is the irony of it, really. We manifest our perceptions in what appeals to us the most.

I find it amazing that man goes on to draw it's own conclusions, and then says that it all must be the way that they see it or else God is a deceiver. It doesn't even make sense. Unless you know everything, you cannot really know anything. And that is a pure and simple fact. It just so happens that science runs into more problems in this modern era then it ever has before, and for good reason.
It's like a tower- you start building it, and patch mistakes, and add more on one side, and counterbalance the other the best you can.., and eventually, you have one ugly tower. So it is no wonder that science has reached a point where, initially, we thought we'd have figured out a lot more by now.

We discover new things all the time, no doubt, but as far as consolidation., one can pretty much forget about it.

And this is all what people use to dismiss creationism. If you believe in God, and believe that He is outside the laws of physical reality that we dwell in, then why attach material reasoning? Like I stated before, Him deceiving anyone is just a big load. People have simply deceived themselves.
 
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cubinity

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Except that I have not said anything about refuting Creationism as described in the Bible. In fact, I consider myself a creationist. I believe the ideas I have communicated are compatable with creationism. All i've said is that we can't use this text to assertain the duration of the first six days of creation. What's so detestable about that?
 
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miamited

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Hi cubinity,

Thanks for your response and I do see where you have come to associate the evening and morning as light and dark. Honestly I had never made that connection and still don't, but I am wondering how you might see the difference in Genesis 1:4-5 and Genesis 1:14-15.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
 
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cubinity

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Hi cubinity,

Thanks for your response and I do see where you have come to associate the evening and morning as light and dark. Honestly I had never made that connection and still don't, but I am wondering how you might see the difference in Genesis 1:4-5 and Genesis 1:14-15.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

Great question, Ted.

I interpret day 4 as the described beginning of our existing solar system.

I notice the text says that the things made in day 4 are made as markers for us, which is exactly how we use them, is'nt it? I think that's cool.

Nontheless, whether the earth is revolving around the sun or the Son, a moving observer can still stay on the dark side of the globe indefinitely, right?

Interesting stuff.
 
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theFijian

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Well, I have resolved the sun, the Sabbath, and the day issue., so why stop there, right?
You haven't even started to resolve anything. Can you start by actually explaining what you think 'material logic' is.

There is all the philosophy and logic in the world, and yet people choose to go on material logic to explain how the Almighty God created the universe.
You simply do not understand the nature of God's revelation of himself. He has relvealed himself through scripture, and he has revealed himself through nature. The Bible even tells you as much! You're probably not remotely familiar with Romans 1 but it says this:

[sup]20[/sup]For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made.

Your confusion about 'material logic' is this; you think if science can describe a particular phenomenon then God is not present or has no influence over that phenomenon. This is not what scripture teaches. Again I'll use that verse from Colossians that you seem incapable of dealing with:

Col 1:16, 17 - For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities&#8212;all things were created through him and for him. [sup]17[/sup]And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

The Bible states that we can know something about God in how he has created; it also states the it is Christ through whom all things hold together. God is both the maker and sustainer of all Creation. Any TE you ask will say that they believe and affirm this essential truth of Christianity. You however refuse to deal with this essential Christian truth either because you can't, or because you do not know how. Of course either of those would be a considerable blow to your ego which you certainly aren't going to allow.

There is nothing atheistic about methodological naturalism (which is what I'm presuming you mean by 'material logic' - again why make up phrases when there are perfectly good ones which actually mean something useful?), neither is the scientific method atheistic. This is becasue it does not posit God as an explanation for natural phenomena because it simply can not; God being pretrenatural cannot be observed, measured or tested emprically. This is all that science can deal with. Science doesn't say there is no God; it simply says it cannot answer that question.

This fundamental misunderstanding of science (don't be ashamed, you're not ther first and wont be the last) is what leads to your god-of-the-gaps. Creationists like you think that science must be able to tell us that God exists becasue ironically Creationist elevate Science to a level it does not warrant; they think that if something cannot be described scientifically then it cannot be 'true'

You see all these creationist claims that have been 'refuted' by science, but how have they been refuted? Because someone came up with a material explanation that, no matter how unlikely it may be, must conclude that is the way they theorize it?
Creationists make scientific claims, these claims are then refuted by science. If Creationists don't want to be refuted then they shouldn't pretend that their pseudo-science is in any way scientific.

It's a bullying concept.
Another gibberish phrase which betrays a lack of depth to your argument.

Science simply claims anything and everything for itself, prescribes it's brand of logic an ideas, and tells creationists to eff off, pretty much.
Quite simply this is false, science has a realm in which it can speak to and describe. Your error in this regard has already been addressed. And again there's no need for the foul language (well not if you don't want to give the impression that you have nothing better to say)

But the truth is that the evidence for creationism is everywhere. It just depends on what pair of eyes you are perceiving everything with.
The truth is that Creationists come over very postmodern whenever it suits them.

The fact of the matter is that creationists have a base. Science does not.
The fact of the matter is you create a false dichotomy.

Nothing is truly 'empirical' until all is shown to be true.
Please to at least educate yourself as to what words mean before bothering to use them.

For example, look at the horizon problem with the Big Bang. Now, the Big Bang theory has many hints that such an event happened, but it has multiple issues with the horizon issue towering above them all.
So pray tell what is this 'horizon issue'? You wouldn't happen to be parrotting Creationist PRATTs without having a clue what they mean?

It's actually absurd to front the idea as true, because it clearly is just a common belief that is lacking in several ways. (which echoes certain other theories as well)
More handwaving in the form of meaningless gibberish

If one cannot solve the problem, then everything after it is obsolete. The distance of light travel through billions of years is obsolete, for example.
More meaningless gargage.

In all actuality, the fact that the universe is uniform is really evidence for Creation.
What do you mean by 'the universe is uniform'? Do you have any idea what these things mean?

And if material reason takes a mighty purge in that respect,
More gibberish. 'mighty purge'? Do you gibve any thought to the sentences you construct?

why stop at that point? Why not take it a step further and actually heed the Bible?
Again, a false dichotomy.

See, what would you think, hypothetically, if common descent happened to be proven false? Would your material reasoning not shift? And if so, would it even be sensible to continue with material logic?
Creationism has no working methodology to 'do science'; Creationism is pseudo-science and only ever produces anything because it pigg-backs off of those doing proper science.

That is the irony of it, really. We manifest our perceptions in what appeals to us the most.
And what appeals to you is bravado, empty boasting, grandstanding, strawmen, fallacious arguments, handwaving, ignoring questions, self-contradiction etc etc

I find it amazing that man goes on to draw it's own conclusions, and then says that it all must be the way that they see it or else God is a deceiver.
No, it's because the Bible tells us that God has revealed himself through nature.

It doesn't even make sense. Unless you know everything, you cannot really know anything. And that is a pure and simple fact.
Lol! Thanks for admitting that you know nothing, does that mean you wont be pontificating anymore through because you know nothing?

It just so happens that science runs into more problems in this modern era then it ever has before, and for good reason.
More baseless assertions, all today's techonological innovations are grounded in modern science. Creationists do come over all hypocritical in this respect.

It's like a tower- you start building it, and patch mistakes, and add more on one side, and counterbalance the other the best you can.., and eventually, you have one ugly tower.
An apt description of Creationism.

So it is no wonder that science has reached a point where, initially, we thought we'd have figured out a lot more by now.
Really? Who thought this?

We discover new things all the time, no doubt, but as far as consolidation., one can pretty much forget about it.
More baseless meaningless assertions.

And this is all what people use to dismiss creationism. If you believe in God, and believe that He is outside the laws of physical reality that we dwell in, then why attach material reasoning?
Because the Bible tells us to use 'material logic' becasue it reveals something about God's nature to us.

Like I stated before, Him deceiving anyone is just a big load. People have simply deceived themselves.
Like I have demonstrated before, you have been deceived by your own puffed up ego.
 
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Greg1234

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There is nothing atheistic about methodological naturalism (which is what I'm presuming you mean by 'material logic' - again why make up phrases when there are perfectly good ones which actually mean something useful?), neither is the scientific method atheistic. This is becasue it does not posit God as an explanation for natural phenomena because it simply can not; God being pretrenatural cannot be observed, measured or tested emprically. This is all that science can deal with. Science doesn't say there is no God; it simply says it cannot answer that question.

You're missing the point. The fact of the matter is that physical science cannot explain these things. Christians adopt the idea that Darwinism is "how God did it". However, there is actually nothing there in physical science but puffs of smoke.

When attempting to explain the creation of man, physical science essentially has home field advantage- in the material you have atoms, DNA, physiology, mutations, mitosis, extinction etc all of which can be used to concoct a very vibrant , stuffed up, and lengthy story. And even if it is refuted, it simply has the vibrancy,

Christians are casting that simple fact aside and are being sucked by these tales. In Creationism, the great majority of that creation takes place through supernatural means. Creationists cannot readily recruit atoms, mutations, physiology, mitosis, genetic recombination or any other material means in order to "stuff up" the creation method used. In fact, you'll have a hard time getting past "God did it" using methodological naturalism.

When you compare the two, Darwinism looks like the explanation for "how God did it" simply because Darwinism has the means to generate the how. But this vibrant oasis is a mirage. Completely illusory. It doesn't matter how many times Darwinism is refuted, Christians who are "scientifically bent" will look at back at the Creationism alternative (God did it) and gravitate towards a more intellectually and scientifically fulfilling venture. That's all fine and good but not everybody is like you people.

The literal sense is Creationism, what is the interpretation? The elusive "creationism" method in its entirety through the use of supernatural. But I doubt anyone of us would begin to understand it in its entirety anyways.


The point is that if Darwinism is refuted then there is simply no reason to hold it up. If Creationism has never been refuted, no matter how vibrant the debunked alternative is, it simply has not been refuted.
 
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theFijian

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You're missing the point. The fact of the matter is that physical science cannot explain these things. Christians adopt the idea that Darwinism is "how God did it". However, there is actually nothing there in physical science but puffs of smoke.
Do creationists really just have handwaving to back up their arguments?
When attempting to explain the creation of man, physical science essentially has home field advantage- in the material you have atoms, DNA, physiology, mutations, mitosis, extinction etc all of which can be used to concoct a very vibrant , stuffed up, and lengthy story. And even if it is refuted, it simply has the vibrancy,
I really have little idea what this is supposed to mean. What is home-field advantage got to do with anything? Another misunderstanding of God two revelations? And 'vibrancy' means what exactly?

Christians are casting that simple fact aside and are being sucked by these tales. In Creationism, the great majority of that creation takes place through supernatural means. Creationists cannot readily recruit atoms, mutations, physiology, mitosis, genetic recombination or any other material means in order to "stuff up" the creation method used. In fact, you'll have a hard time getting past "God did it" using methodological naturalism.
Nobody around here disputes that God created supernaturally; at some point that which did not exist had to come into existance. Nobody around here disputes that God created. What Creationists seem to dispute is what we read in Colossions 1 (how many times do I have to post this before a Creationist will deal with it?)

[sup]16[/sup]For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. [sup]17[/sup] And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

When you compare the two, Darwinism looks like the explanation for "how God did it" simply because Darwinism has the means to generate the how. But this vibrant oasis is a mirage. Completely illusory. It doesn't matter how many times Darwinism is refuted, Christians who are "scientifically bent" will look at back at the Creationism alternative (God did it) and gravitate towards a more intellectually and scientifically fulfilling venture. That's all fine and good but not everybody is like you people.

The problem is 'Darwinism' has not been refuted no matter how long and hard Creationists girn about it, they have all failed to refute it.

The literal sense is Creationism, what is the interpretation? The elusive "creationism" method in its entirety through the use of supernatural. But I doubt anyone of us would begin to understand it in its entirety anyways.
Which is exactly why it is not Creation Science is an oxymoron, but hey not everything has to be scientific for it to be true.

The point is that if Darwinism is refuted then there is simply no reason to hold it up. If Creationism has never been refuted, no matter how vibrant the debunked alternative is, it simply has not been refuted.

Uh right so if something has not been refuted then it has not been refuted. Or if A then A? Not exactly insightful.
 
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Sum1sGruj

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You're missing the point. The fact of the matter is that physical science cannot explain these things. Christians adopt the idea that Darwinism is "how God did it". However, there is actually nothing there in physical science but puffs of smoke.

When attempting to explain the creation of man, physical science essentially has home field advantage- in the material you have atoms, DNA, physiology, mutations, mitosis, extinction etc all of which can be used to concoct a very vibrant , stuffed up, and lengthy story. And even if it is refuted, it simply has the vibrancy,

Christians are casting that simple fact aside and are being sucked by these tales. In Creationism, the great majority of that creation takes place through supernatural means. Creationists cannot readily recruit atoms, mutations, physiology, mitosis, genetic recombination or any other material means in order to "stuff up" the creation method used. In fact, you'll have a hard time getting past "God did it" using methodological naturalism.

When you compare the two, Darwinism looks like the explanation for "how God did it" simply because Darwinism has the means to generate the how. But this vibrant oasis is a mirage. Completely illusory. It doesn't matter how many times Darwinism is refuted, Christians who are "scientifically bent" will look at back at the Creationism alternative (God did it) and gravitate towards a more intellectually and scientifically fulfilling venture. That's all fine and good but not everybody is like you people.

The literal sense is Creationism, what is the interpretation? The elusive "creationism" method in its entirety through the use of supernatural. But I doubt anyone of us would begin to understand it in its entirety anyways.


The point is that if Darwinism is refuted then there is simply no reason to hold it up. If Creationism has never been refuted, no matter how vibrant the debunked alternative is, it simply has not been refuted.

That's pretty much the whole kit and kaboodle right there Greg1234. It's pretty much what you state below your avatar, which I am mad I didn't come up with before lol: Science is only a branch of science.

That is why when some call creationist ideas 'pseudo-science' and such, it's really just empty words which bear no real meaning.
I think the most frustrating part is that even as sensible as the creationists logical argument is, others will simply deny even though they know deep down it's competent.
Trying to prescribe a material logic to something that cannot be explained rationally is a big fail in itself, and the vibrancy you speak of is the only thing that keeps it afloat.
I can go ahead and tell anyone that if these self-righteous people such as Dawkins, Hitchens, all the way down to the average naysayers and know-it-alls, just portrayed this truthful logic as it is and let go of their ridiculous bias, the world would open up their eyes and stop trying to connect two things that clearly do not fit together.

And that's the irony of it really. Theistic-evolutionists at the end of the day, think about angles, realms, spirits, and the infinite God, just so the next day they can continue on preaching about how science says this and that and that God's Word is only true to what science theorizes, even pinning it against creationists., fellow Christians who should really be the ones with sovereignty over Creation apologetics. It's a bad joke.

And then, most of them from what I've observed, will go on to say things like 'creationists thought the world was flat' and whatnot. But the thing is, we are no longer living in the dark ages. When people thought the world was flat, it wasn't only among religious people, but everyone in general as well. It was common sense. They were living in a world of common sense.
We have now reached the age where creationists are well educated themselves, and science has simply gone awol and has been ridiculously exaggerated. One would think that any religious person would be happy to see that the greatness of God is piercing through many scientific flaws, and yet some religious people get., defensive? What?
It's just that new age backwardness one can expect to see in many things, not just Creation.

I can put it like this: If people back then saw the world was flat because it was just plain common sense, and they turned out to be wrong., then how about what TE's see as common sense? The script has kind of flipped now, hasn't it?
Therefore, what is being preached is not even being practiced.
 
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Greg1234

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That's pretty much the whole kit and kaboodle right there Greg1234. It's pretty much what you state below your avatar, which I am mad I didn't come up with before lol: Science is only a branch of science.
:thumbsup:

People don't seem to understand that methodological naturalism is not an authority in metaphysics. No more of an authority than astronomy is in mathematics. Of course, when you start off with the assumption that religion is "primitive" and that physical science is above all else, you would tend to think that somehow, physical science has to usurp religion. Notice however that mathematics is not trying to overthrow astronomy.



And that's the irony of it really. Theistic-evolutionists at the end of the day, think about angles, realms, spirits, and the infinite God, just so the next day they can continue on preaching about how science says this and that and that God's Word is only true to what science theorizes, even pinning it against creationists., fellow Christians who should really be the ones with sovereignty over Creation apologetics. It's a bad joke.

A materialist would desert the "sanctity" of his materialistic icon and appear as a part of something he so utterly and unconditionally detests, just to get that chance to inject Darwinism. I would imagine that to a materialist, it's a sublimely lucrative investment and a Christian Darwinist will have you think that such a drastic change is without repercussions.

It's like one of those movies where people go back in time, make a massive change, then expect everything that follows to remain the same. All materialistic arguments, from beast man authors to primitive notions, follow through from that change.

In Creationism, man himself advances through his proximity to the source. As a result, men from the earliest times would be seen as highly advanced. Darwinism is designed to blot that out with the proclamation of beast man intelligence, and based on that, the materialist advances his doctrine on primal ineptitude etched in theological doctrine.

One rarely sees a Christian Darwinist debate a materialist on theological matters but you can already imagine how that would turn out. If it doesnt turn into a Creationist bashing session then the arguments being put out are pretty weak. For one, they both already believe in Darwinism which speaks for itself. The shared belief in beast-man intelligence comes standard which rules out the use of textual evidence. A shared belief in a future naturalistic explanation for all super natural phenomena rules out the use of tangible evidence. To cap it all off, they even sing the praises of these people, calling themselves "closet naturalists" and attempting to dull brash proclamations by embedding materialism within endeavors already being pioneered by theists.

Sometimes, if it weren't for those icons, you would not even know who you're speaking with. I wouldn't blame then though. It's that "painless" and "harmless" injection of Darwinism.


And then, most of them from what I've observed, will go on to say things like 'creationists thought the world was flat' and whatnot. But the thing is, we are no longer living in the dark ages. When people thought the world was flat, it wasn't only among religious people, but everyone in general as well. It was common sense. They were living in a world of common sense.
We have now reached the age where creationists are well educated themselves, and science has simply gone awol and has been ridiculously exaggerated. One would think that any religious person would be happy to see that the greatness of God is piercing through many scientific flaws, and yet some religious people get., defensive? What?
It's just that new age backwardness one can expect to see in many things, not just Creation.

I can put it like this: If people back then saw the world was flat because it was just plain common sense, and they turned out to be wrong., then how about what TE's see as common sense? The script has kind of flipped now, hasn't it?
Therefore, what is being preached is not even being practiced.

Some of them are even starting to use passages from the bible to support Darwinism. When Darwinism is over, it will be "shown" that it was those Christians within Christianity that were holding back science with their bible verses. The scientific community will be absolved and the pattern will continue.
 
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theFijian

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That's pretty much the whole kit and kaboodle right there Greg1234. It's pretty much what you state below your avatar, which I am mad I didn't come up with before lol: Science is only a branch of science.
Ah I see, so a Creationist love-in is ok but a TE one is not? Hypocritical much?

That is why when some call creationist ideas 'pseudo-science' and such, it's really just empty words which bear no real meaning.
Obviously nobody is able to come up empty words quite like you.

I think the most frustrating part is that even as sensible as the creationists logical argument is, others will simply deny even though they know deep down it's competent.
Ad hominem. You have failed to make a cogent argument so you resort to attacking the motivations of those you disagree with. Speaks volumes to the paucity of your own arguments.

Trying to prescribe a material logic to something that cannot be explained rationally is a big fail in itself,
This false argument of yours has already been refuted, but unsurprisingly you refuse to engage with the questions raised against it.
and the vibrancy you speak of is the only thing that keeps it afloat.
You should stop using words of which you do not know the meaning.

I can go ahead and tell anyone that if these self-righteous people such as Dawkins, Hitchens, all the way down to the average naysayers and know-it-alls, just portrayed this truthful logic as it is and let go of their ridiculous bias, the world would open up their eyes and stop trying to connect two things that clearly do not fit together.
Ah I see, everyone else is biased except you? How remarkably humble and nothing less than we'd expect of you.

And that's the irony of it really. Theistic-evolutionists at the end of the day, think about angles, realms, spirits, and the infinite God, just so the next day they can continue on preaching about how science says this and that and that God's Word is only true to what science theorizes, even pinning it against creationists., fellow Christians who should really be the ones with sovereignty over Creation apologetics. It's a bad joke.
More ad hominem, again you have failed to address the arguments logically so you instead attack the motivations of your opponents. I can clearly see that your motivation is one of pride, vaingloriousness, bravado and ego.

And then, most of them from what I've observed, will go on to say things like 'creationists thought the world was flat' and whatnot. But the thing is, we are no longer living in the dark ages. When people thought the world was flat, it wasn't only among religious people, but everyone in general as well. It was common sense. They were living in a world of common sense.
Utter bilge. Was it 'common sense' to believe that the way to detect if someone was a witch was to see if they floated in water? yes what a world of common sense that was.

I can put it like this: If people back then saw the world was flat because it was just plain common sense, and they turned out to be wrong., then how about what TE's see as common sense? The script has kind of flipped now, hasn't it?
Therefore, what is being preached is not even being practiced.
How about what Creationists see as common sense? What script are you gibbering about?
 
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