A lineage of Popes in unbroken succession

[Albion]

After theLord makes Peter a shepherd, telling him three times to "feed my lambs" and "tend my sheep."
Peter unlocks the door to the Gentiles because he is the one with the keys.

Now you've got it. The keys are not some tortured allusion to David's key and political power. It refers to Peter opening the door to the masses' understanding the Gospel. And once he had done this, what Christ was speaking of was accomplished in him--also has you said. No line of so-called Popes with any particular jurisdiction or infallibility is referred to in these verses.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Now you've got it. The keys are not some tortured allusion to David's key and political power. It refers to Peter opening the door to the masses' understanding the Gospel. And once he had done this, what Christ was speaking of was accomplished in him--also has you said. No line of so-called Popes with any particular jurisdiction or infallibility is referred to in these verses.

ROFL

You are kidding right?

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Thanks Trento!


Now, where is it said that Peter was a pope and that such titles meant anything and that it is passed on as the RCC teaches?

History written outside of the Bible is colored by our own biases and should rarely be taken at face value.

Titles like bishop, priest, deacon, pastor, reverand and 'shephard of the flock'?

Or how about that crazy title of 'Rock'. Man who could believe someone would be called Rock when Simon is perfectly acceptable.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

1...and not to anyone else, such as a later bishop of Rome. But you should know that "keys," like many other allusions in scripture, are open to various intenpretations. Since keys open things, and Peter opened the eyes of the multitudes on Pentecose, becoming the first to bring in a real surge of new disciples, and thanks to a special, miraculous gift of tongues, this is the most likely interpretation according to many Bible scholars.

AMEN! Open to MANY other interpretations!

How about over 30,000 different interpretations?

Yes that is right. Heck we got a Protestant denomination for just about anything under the sun. The devil is sitting on the corner selling them for cheap. You want one or maybe you think you have one of your own?

You got ONE thing right.

THERE IS MORE THAN ONE INTERPRETATION.

Don't you think Jesus knew that? Do you think God is stupid?

Of course you do not. You are an intelligent person with a very good imagination.

A.)Have you imagined that God left an Authority to guide us in the interpretation and help us remember.


B.)Have you imagined that this Authority would be right here on earth and the pillar that would uphold the truth.


C.)Have you imagined that another would have a seat like moses and be in charge of the King of the Universe's kingdom here on earth.

Matthew 23:2. Saying: The scribes and the Pharisees have sitten on the chair of Moses.
[SIZE=-1]Dicens super cathedram Mosi sederunt scribae et Pharisaei[/SIZE]


If you have then AMEN brother I got good news for you. So tell that demon on the corner you ain't buying and read what scripture has to say...


To answer 'A' we are told:

John 15:26. But when the Paraclete cometh, whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceedeth from the Father, he shall give testimony of me.
[SIZE=-1]Cum autem venerit paracletus quem ego mittam vobis a Patre Spiritum veritatis qui a Patre procedit ille testimonium perhibebit de me[/SIZE]


To answer 'B' we are told:

Timothy 3:15. But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
[SIZE=-1]Si autem tardavero ut scias quomodo oporteat te in domo Dei conversari quae est ecclesia Dei vivi columna et firmamentum veritatis[/SIZE]

To answer 'C' we are told:

16:19. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.
[SIZE=-1]Et tibi dabo claves regni caelorum et quodcumque ligaveris super terram erit ligatum in caelis et quodcumque solveris super terram erit solutum in caelis[/SIZE]

AND how do we know these keys grant Peter the powers of the Steward of the Kingdom? Because the spirit had the text written the same as that of Isaias 22:22 and because we kept the Traditions of the church as can be seen in the writings of the ECF.

22:22. And I will lay the key of the house of David upon his shoulder: and he shall open, and none shall shut: and he shall shut, and none shall open.
[SIZE=-1]Et dabo clavem domus David super umerum eius et aperiet et non erit qui claudat et claudet et non erit qui aperiat[/SIZE]

 

[JacktheCatholic]

So I know we are all intelligent and imaginative. So imagine for a moment this...

The house of God is the church that was built on Peter the Rock who received the keys to God's kingdom here on earth and whom received the supreme power on earth to bind and loose until Jesus returns to judge us all. That Jesus knew the beginning of time and the end of time and calling himself the alpha and omega was not just something cool to say. That since Jesus is so knowing he knew that we fallible humans needed God still to remember his teachings and protect them so he sent his third person who proceeded from the father and the Son in heaven to protect this teaching through his house on earth and with the help of his main steward whom he left his Keys. And because God is all powerful and infallible he promised the Spirit would help the one in the seat of Peter to be infallible in matters of Faith and Morals as he used men to write the inspired Word of God... with the Spirit of Truth.

If you can imagine that then Amen. Amen. Amen!

Because our Lord loves us so much that he did just that.

God Bless the Catholic Church the bride of Christ and as pure as can be.

 

[Rick Otto]

The Chief Cornerstone had no sense of humor(calling Peter-get-thee-behind-me-Satan a "rock")?
WE are not ALL "living stones"?
The Body of Christ is two headed?
Back-handed compliments introduce pompous put-downs?
The gospel isn't the key to heaven?
The Comforter only helps one guy?
All 30,000 interpretations are qualitatively different?
I know the Syllabus of Errors ranted on freedom of religion, speech & democracy, & it's author was the same guy who snuck Infallability in on a council ostensibly about Immaculate Conception, but manipulation is acceptable if it's "Spirit led"?

The RCC is cetainly not lacking in imagination!
Vanity is shameless in its unrestraint.

 

[Albion]

AMEN! Open to MANY other interpretations!

How about over 30,000 different interpretations?

Well, that's obviously not true. But there are a half-dozen good interpretations of the keys verse. Yes, your church has one and other churches have other ones. Does this come as a surprise?

You got ONE thing right.

THERE IS MORE THAN ONE INTERPRETATION.

Welcome to the word of religious studies.

A.)Have you imagined that God left an Authority to guide us in the interpretation and help us remember.

Yes. We normally call it Holy Scripture or the Bible. This is the Word of God, so what can be better?

B.)Have you imagined that this Authority would be right here on earth and the pillar that would uphold the truth.

If you are imagining that God left an infallible interpreter of his word, you are indeed imagining. There is nothing about that in scripture and I would think that if this were his intent, he'd have told us. Wouldn't you?

AND how do we know these keys grant Peter the powers of the Steward of the Kingdom? Because the spirit had the text written the same as that of Isaias 22:22 and because we kept the Traditions of the church as can be seen in the writings of the ECF.

I've heard the theory before--and you must have taken in it hook, line, and sinker. The problem is that 1) there is no connection between Isaias and Matthew except your impressive powers of imagining, and 2) the ECFs disagree with each other on the successors of Peter as administering the church and NONE of them attributes infallibility to the bishop of Rome. That's why your church split in two when the doctrine was made obligatoru only little more than one century ago.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

If you are imagining that God left an infallible interpreter of his word, you are indeed imagining. There is nothing about that in scripture and I would think that if this were his intent, he'd have told us. Wouldn't you?

I posted it for you dude...

It is called the Spirit of Truth and His church (The Catholic Church). For scripture simply read the post you quoted from.

 

[Albion]

I posted it for you dude...

It is called the Spirit of Truth and His church (The Catholic Church). For scripture simply read the post you quoted from.

I have read the scripture, dude. That's why I know that your grammatically challenged "Spirit of Truth" passage is not from the Bible.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

I have read the scripture, dude. That's why I know that your grammatically challenged "Spirit of Truth" passage is not from the Bible.

My mistake. Are you using the Jehovah's Witness Bible or maybe the Muslim Bible?

Double check bro, even the Muslim book has similiar Old Testament stuff.

I figured most Bibles would have scripture for Matthew 23:2, John 15:26, Timothy 3:15, Matthew 16:19 and Isaias 22:22.

 

[Albion]

My mistake....I figured most Bibles would have scripture for Matthew 23:2, John 15:26, Timothy 3:15, Matthew 16:19 and Isaias 22:22.

Believe it or not, they do.

None of the translations say what your tract did.

Care to use the scriptures to try to prove your point?

 

[everready]

Now you've got it. The keys are not some tortured allusion to David's key and political power. It refers to Peter opening the door to the masses' understanding the Gospel. And once he had done this, what Christ was speaking of was accomplished in him--also has you said. No line of so-called Popes with any particular jurisdiction or infallibility is referred to in these verses.

Is this what your reffering to?

http://www.professornigel.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=20&Itemid=28

 

[Albion]

Is this what your reffering to?

http://www.professornigel.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=20&Itemid=28

No. I was referring to a widely-held understanding of this passage in scripture that many Bible scholars have written on. I've never read your link.

 

[everready]

No. I was referring to a widely-held understanding of this passage in scripture that many Bible scholars have written on. I've never read your link.

Well, then that makes two of us, I hadn't seen it before last week. Just something I came across.

In Christ,

Lee

 

[kepha31]

The early church believed they were an extension of the Incarnation, united by the "breaking of the bread". The Holy Spirit superintended the Teaching Authority of this Church to instruct, combat heresy, and complile the Holy Books into a Bible. The structure of this Church is modeled after the Old Davidic Kingdom, not like any government or corporation on earth. Without this mysterious mixing of divine atributes with a visible human organization, Christianity would not have survived.

Apostolic Succession is a Sacred Tradition that pre-dates the canon of the Bible. To spare anyone from shooting themselves in the foot, preserving and compiling Sacred Scripture is also a Sacred Tradition, often falsely labelled as traditions of men.

Rejecting the authority of the Church means rejecting the Papacy, and it also means having to re-define the Incarnation and the way the Holy Spirit guides us.

Arguments about rock, Peter, Pope, Keys, Infallibility, are secondary.

 

[Rick Otto]

The Papacy is what redefines the way The Holy Spirit guides us.
Anyone can claim superintendancy by The Holy Spirit.
All one has to do is judge by His fruit, not Rome's.

 

[kepha31]

Rome is merely a city in Italy. It so happens that Rome was the capital of the known world at the time. That is why God chose to use Rome as the center of authority for the Church on earth. Jesus died for the whole world. There is a certain symbolism there. If Peter were to establish his 'diocese' in Paris, we would be called Parisian Catholics. If Peter were to establish this same authoritive church in Joppa, we would be called Joppian Catholics.

Pope Clement riegned as Pope as is clearly indicated by several writings. The Apostle John was still alive at the time. Why wasn't the Apostle John the Pope? Because he wasn't the bishop of Rome.

Attacking the Primacy of Peter and Apostolic succession demands re-writing historical facts to fit a theology born out of 16th century Nominalism, and severing the connection between the Incarnation and an earthly Church, severing the mystical body comprised of heaven and earth. It is a form of gnosticism.

 

[kepha31]

Isa. 22: 19 I will thrust you from your office, and you will be pulled down from your station. 20 In that day I will call my servant Eliakim the son of Hilkiah, 21 and I will clothe him with your robe, and will bind your sash on him, and will commit your authority to his hand. And he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. 22 And I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David. He shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open. 23 And I will fasten him like a peg in a secure place, and he will become a throne of honor to his father's house.

Isa. 22:19 - Shebna is described as having an "office" and a "station." An office, in order for it to be an office, has successors. In order for an earthly kingdom to last, a succession of representatives is required.
This was the case in the Old Covenant kingdom, and it is the case in the New Covenant kingdom which fulfills the Old Covenant. Jesus our King is in heaven, but He has appointed a chief steward over His household with a plan for a succession of representatives.

. 20: In that day I will call my servant Eli'akim the son of Hilki'ah,


Isa. 22:20 - in the old Davidic kingdom, Eliakim succeeds Shebna as the chief steward of the household of God. The kingdom employs a mechanism of dynastic succession. King David was dead for centuries, but his kingdom is preserved through a succession of representatives.

21: and I will clothe him with your robe, and will bind your girdle on him, and will commit your authority to his hand; and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah.

Isa. 22:21 - Eliakim is called “father” or “papa” of God's people. The word Pope used by Catholics to describe the chief steward of the earthly kingdom simply means papa or father in Italian. This is why Catholics call the leader of the Church "Pope." The Pope is the father of God's people, the chief steward of the earthly kingdom and Christ's representative on earth.

22: And I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David; he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.

Isa. 22:22 - we see that the keys of the kingdom pass from Shebna to Eliakim. Thus, the keys are used not only as a symbol of authority, but also to facilitate succession. The keys of Christ's kingdom have passed from Peter to Linus all the way to our current Pope with an unbroken lineage for almost 2,000 years.

23: And I will fasten him like a peg (Nail) in a sure place, and he will become a throne of honor to his father's house.

Rev. 1:18; 3:7; 9:1; 20:1 - Jesus' "keys" undeniably represent authority. By using the word "keys," Jesus gives Peter authority on earth over the new Davidic kingdom, and this was not seriously questioned by anyone until the Protestant reformation 1,500 years later after Peter’s investiture.

Revelation 3:7 RSV
7: "And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: `The words of the holy one, the true one, who has the key of David, who opens and no one shall shut, who shuts and no one opens.

Matthew 16:19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Matt. 16:19 - whatever Peter binds or looses on earth is bound or loosed in heaven / when the Prime Minister to the King opens, no one shuts. This "binding and loosing" authority allows the keeper of the keys to establish "halakah," or rules of conduct for the members of the kingdom he serves.

Jer. 33:17 - Jeremiah prophesies that David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the earthly House of Israel. Either this is a false prophecy, or David has a successor of representatives throughout history.

Dan. 2:44 - Daniel prophesies an earthly kingdom that will never be destroyed. Either this is a false prophecy, or the earthly kingdom requires succession.

 

[Albion]

Rome is merely a city in Italy. It so happens that Rome was the capital of the known world at the time. That is why God chose to use Rome as the center of authority for the Church on earth.

If that were so, I am sure there would have been at least a HINT of it in scripture.

Pope Clement riegned as Pope as is clearly indicated by several writings.

Not a one of them identifies him as anything more than the bishop of Rome.

Why wasn't the Apostle John the Pope?

Because the idea of a Pope was unknown at that time. It only developed centuries later.

 

[everready]

Anyone care to explain this?


http://www.biblebelievers.com/babylon/sect61.htm