A lineage of Popes in unbroken succession

[simonthezealot]

I am guilty of using Newadvent a lot.

But I also use Wikipedia (not the best I know).

Another is Catholic Answers.

I will look up this Schaff guy.

I doubt he is on a level with Thomas Aquinas though.

He summarizes in here the many differing views of Matt 16:18 amongst the fathers...Good read!

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/hcc3.iii.viii.xiv.html

 

[JacktheCatholic]

He summarizes in here the many differing views of Matt 16:18 amongst the fathers...Good read!

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/hcc3.iii.viii.xiv.html

Before I read this I would like to know who this Schaff dude is???

Are you speaking of Philip Schaff?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Schaff


Also, if Trento has referenced him itis to show a protestant confirming a Catholic Teaching and not necessarily that Trento believes in all he has to say. You know what I mean too.

 

[simonthezealot]

Before I read this I would like to know who this Schaff dude is???

Are you speaking of Philip Schaff?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Schaff


Also, if Trento has referenced him itis to show a protestant confirming a Catholic Teaching and not necessarily that Trento believes in all he has to say. You know what I mean too.

Yes that is him! And actually trento to an infamous degree misquotes Schaff to give the appearance that Schaff confirms Romes teaching! he is able to do this because of Schaffs even handed approach to history but upon further study you'll see these are all out of context cut-n-pastes taken from internet apologists...
I've not ONE time found Schaff to quote fathers out of context and I doubt you will either!

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Yes that is him! And actually trento to an infamous degree misquotes Schaff to give the appearance that Schaff confirms Romes teaching! he is able to do this because of Schaffs even handed approach to history but upon further study you'll see these are all out of context cut-n-pastes taken from internet apologists...
I've not ONE time found Schaff to quote fathers out of context and I doubt you will either!

Philip Schaff is a 19th century Protestant that had an education but I cannot see him as qualified for speaking fully on Church History. Right?

But I would entertain any notions you wish to bring to the table regarding Schaff.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Are we using this?

http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/history/About.htm

 

[simonthezealot]

Are we using this?

http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/history/About.htm

It's a valuable tool!

 

[JacktheCatholic]

It's a valuable tool!

Maybe...

The Catechism of the Catholic Church is quite valuable too.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

I have a problem with this:

Quote "Gregory the First, or the Great, the last of the Latin fathers and the first of the popes, connects the ancient with the mediaeval church, the Graeco-Roman with the Romano-Germanic type of Christianity."

http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/history/4_ch04.htm



What does he mean by "first of the Popes"???

 

[racer]

Before I read this I would like to know who this Schaff dude is???

Are you speaking of Philip Schaff?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Schaff


Also, if Trento has referenced him itis to show a protestant confirming a Catholic Teaching and not necessarily that Trento believes in all he has to say. You know what I mean too.

No, when Trento and you quote Schaff you are quoting him completely out of context to make it appear that he is confirming a Catholic teaching. I've debunked Trento numerous times when he quotes Schaff.

 

[simonthezealot]

I have a problem with this:

Quote "Gregory the First, or the Great, the last of the Latin fathers and the first of the popes, connects the ancient with the mediaeval church, the Graeco-Roman with the Romano-Germanic type of Christianity."

http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/history/4_ch04.htm



What does he mean by "first of the Popes"???

YOU mean the truth he speaks when he says the 1st of the popes??
My Dr. Shelly book at home gives numerous references to this same fact I'll try and post them later!

 

[simonthezealot]

YOU mean the truth he speaks when he says the 1st of the popes??
My Dr. Shelly book at home gives numerous references to this same fact I'll try and post them later!

Seriously Jack I think his comment comes from him being the first to actually be recorded as claiming papal primacy for Rome...

 

[JacktheCatholic]

No, when Trento and you quote Schaff you are quoting him completely out of context to make it appear that he is confirming a Catholic teaching. I've debunked Trento numerous times when he quotes Schaff.

I will try not to use Schaff in the future...

 

[JacktheCatholic]

YOU mean the truth he speaks when he says the 1st of the popes??
My Dr. Shelly book at home gives numerous references to this same fact I'll try and post them later!

Truth???

It is a 19th century Protestant theologian.

Protestant plus Theologian usually equates to anti-catholicism.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Seriously Jack I think his comment comes from him being the first to actually be recorded as claiming papal primacy for Rome...

The first Proetstant?

 

[Trento]

Note that the Council holds Nestor deposed. Pope Coelestine held a synod in Rome in which he condemned Nestorius. He then wrote to Cyril informing him of this decision. Importantly, Cyril convened a council in Alexandria to discuss the issues raised in the Pope's letter, and they too discussed the issue and then also condemned Nestorius.
This is important, because even though the "Pope" had ruled on this, and had informed Cyril, Cyril did not just follow the Pope’s lead, but instead called a council of those in his own See. This was because as Cyril understood it, he was the chief of his own area. What was ruled in Rome did not affect him. Surely, it did influence him, but the findings in Rome did not mean that the whole church immediately thought the issue was settled.

You are trying to imply that Pope St. Celestine did not speak on behalf of Rome alone.

Pope Celestine[422-431] received a letter from St. Cyril, Patriarch of Alexandria. Cyril expressed his need to let Pope Celestine know “about dangers to the faith”, i.e. Nestorius, Patriarch of Constantinople. Cyril added:

... the ancient custom of the churches persuades us to communicate these things to Your Holiness, I write again of necessity. [PG 77: 80]

Deign therefore to put in writing what seems proper to you. Is it necessary to remain in communion with him, or should it be proclaimed boldly that nobody is in communion with one who believes and teaches such things? It is also necessary that Your Piety’s opinion be manifested by letter to the bishops of Macedonia and all the east. [PG 77: 84-5]

Pope Celestine wrote back to Cyril in August of 430 telling him what he must do if Nestorius persisted in his error:

Wherefore, having assumed unto yourself the authority of our See, and using our stead and our place with authority, you shall execute this sentence with the utmost strictness... [PL 50: 463]

Pope Celestine wrote to the Eastern Bishops in August of 430 as well saying:

we have separated from our communion... Bishop Nestorius... [PL 50: 467]

Sentence has been passed against Nestorius by us, or rather by Christ our God... [PL 50: 467-9]

In a letter to the clergy and faithful of Constantinople Pope Celestine urged them that Nestorius had to be resisted saying:

...because our presence seemed necessary in such a matter, we have delegated our place to my holy brother Cyril. [PL 50: 485 sq.]

Nestorius, upon receiving his admonition to repent, had ten days to retract or be excommunicated.

The third Ecumenical Council of Ephesus began in June of 431. Nestorius was condemned in the first session. The bishops sent the sentence to Nestorius who then complained to the emperor. The Council defended itself to the emperor stating that:

Celestine, the most holy and God-beloved bishop of Great Rome... had condemned the heretical teachings of Nestorius before our sentence, and had previously informed us in passing sentence on him... [Mansi 4: 1227 sq.]

The Papal legates arrived in time for the second session in July. The legate Philip spoke first saying:

Indeed some time ago our most holy and most blessed Pope Celestine, bishop of the Apostolic See, defined with regard to this present case and business, through his letters to the holy man Cyril... letters which were read to your holy council. [Mansi 4: 1282. ACO I: Vol. 1: Pt. 3: 53]

After Pope Celestine’s letter was read Papal legate Projectus said to the council:

so that you[the Council] may order a conclusion to be put to what he[Celestine] both defined long ago, and has deigned to call to mind now...[Mansi 4: 1287; ACO I: 1: 3: 57]

The Byzantine Menologion commemorated St. Celestine on April 8.

 

[simonthezealot]

You are trying to imply that Pope St. Celestine did not speak on behalf of Rome alone.

.

Rome and Rome alone...Re-read my post for a better understanding! Not for Cyrils area!

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Rome and Rome alone...Re-read my post for a better understanding! Not for Cyrils area!

I would like to add that even if he said for Rome then all other regions would follow Rome. Rome is where the church has always looked for guidance.

 

[simonthezealot]

I would like to add that even if he said for Rome then all other regions would follow Rome. Rome is where the church has always looked for guidance.

Blinded to the truth! Even with it glaring you in the face!

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Blinded to the truth! Even with it glaring you in the face!

Truth or Opinion?

I see your opinion in that post. Facts can be two sided without enough information. Provide something concrete and not so open to interpretation.

 

[simonthezealot]

Philip Schaff is a 19th century Protestant that had an education but I cannot see him as qualified for speaking fully on Church History. Right?

But I would entertain any notions you wish to bring to the table regarding Schaff.

His qualifications are unmatched, read him for an even handed opinion...
Jack the word of God doesn't teach us that
His Church will be error free. If you read the word of God,
you wouldn't consider the Church to be error free.
It's the RCC that teaches the RCC is infallible,
not the Word of god, for an accurate depiction of history you MUST look outside her otherwise it seems as though your faith
is in the RCC regarding the Church never teaching error.