A lighthearted look into why God cares about free will:

[The Gibborim]

Yeah...it only took about 40 secs before I noticed some big problems with his reasoning.

For example...

"God wants us to love as he does..."

He then goes on to describe God as having "free will" or loving mankind freely, etc. Does he?

From all I've heard god is only good...can only does good...god is love etc. Can god choose, freely, to hate mankind?

If he can, then he isn't "only good" or any other such descriptions of him. That would mean he is capable of evil as well as good.

If he's only capable of doing "good" however, then he doesn't choose anything freely. He simply does the only thing which is in his nature.

In-fact, the video has nothing to do with God's free will but with the request God makes for us to love him and love others. We can not love others or love God without the ability to choose to love. If love is forced or compelled, love is not love.

 

[Noxot]

love requires freedom. freedom implies being able to both love or not love. God is not defined as good by anything or anyone other than himself. he had no greater thing to compare himself to. it appears that one reason God is said to be a Trinity is so that he could have some sort of self-reference but he could only reference himself with himself. since he knew himself so well and loved himself so much he probably would not want to do evil to himself even though he could. he is good in a higher sense that has nothing to do with a comparison and contrasting of knowledge of good and evil. this is due to the perfection and wholeness of that reality called "God".

we humans have knowledge of good and evil due to being limited and existing in a world as creatures of necessity and having a mind capable of thinking and making decisions and judgments and plans. but this knowledge is saturated in creature concerns. God does not have to be bothered with killing himself to get nourishment. he's just not tempted in that way. he had no such kind of weakness in his own perfection.

by the very act of creation God in some sense changed. God is in some way dynamic. if he found a more perfect reality he would become it. it might very well be why he decided to create. maybe being perfect implies a continual perfection that never ends rather than a static definition and finality. it's probably both. or you can look at Gods creation as his own introspection and fellowship with himself.

 

[RDKirk]

In-fact, the video has nothing to do with God's free will but with the request God makes for us to love him and love others. We can not love others or love God without the ability to choose to love. If love is forced or compelled, love is not love.

Well, then we have to get into the meaning of "love."

In Christian scripture, "love God" is synonymous with "obey God."

What else are we gong to do? Give Him a back rub?

 

[Ana the Ist]

In-fact, the video has nothing to do with God's free will but with the request God makes for us to love him and love others. We can not love others or love God without the ability to choose to love. If love is forced or compelled, love is not love.

It glazes over the topic, but it seems worthy of examination. Can god do evil?

 

[The Gibborim]

It glazes over the topic, but it seems worthy of examination. Can god do evil?

I would say he can but doesn't want to. You also run into issues if you start conforming God to good and evil as by doing so you are saying that there is something that existed before God and he must conform to it or not. This would make whatever that standard is the real, ultimate God.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I would say he can but doesn't want to. You also run into issues if you start conforming God to good and evil as by doing so you are saying that there is something that existed before God and he must conform to it or not. This would make whatever that standard is the real, ultimate God.

I'm not getting into any issue of "did something exist before god"...I don't see how good or evil moral choices could exist without anything to choose them.

If you believe that god can "do evil" but doesn't want to...why not just make mankind the same way? Why not create us so that we can "do evil" but never want to?

 

[The Gibborim]

I'm not getting into any issue of "did something exist before god"...I don't see how good or evil moral choices could exist without anything to choose them.

If you believe that god can "do evil" but doesn't want to...why not just make mankind the same way? Why not create us so that we can "do evil" but never want to?

There is a difference between man and God. God is non temporal. He created time and so by definition must be "outside it" it is difficult to talk about him in temporal terms and be correct. To say that God can choose to be good one moment and bad the next makes God temporal.

Now, I can already hear your rebuttal to this. You will say "Ah but doesnt this limit God removing his free will and free action?"

I would say no. We have no way of comprehending a being that exists in one eternal moment that spans all of time. He can "stand back" from time and observe it all. He doesnt follow time and act on it as the correct moment comes.

"For he chose us in him before the creation of the world"

I love the way C.S Lewis puts it:

“God, who needs nothing, loves into existence wholly superfluous creatures in order that He may love and perfect them. He creates the universe, already foreseeing - or should we say "seeing"? there are no tenses in God - the buzzing cloud of flies about the cross, the flayed back pressed against the uneven stake, the nails driven through the mesial nerves, the repeated incipient suffocation as the body droops, the repeated torture of back and arms as it is time after time, for breath's sake, hitched up. If I may dare the biological image, God is a "host" who deliberately creates His own parasites; causes us to be that we may exploit and "take advantage of" Him. Herein is love. This is the diagram of Love Himself, the inventor of all loves.”

For him everything happens at once. He creates the universe at the same time as being crucified and at the same time as anything else happens.

 

[Ana the Ist]

There is a difference between man and God. God is non temporal. He created time and so by definition must be "outside it" it is difficult to talk about him in temporal terms and be correct. To say that God can choose to be good one moment and bad the next makes God temporal.

Now, I can already hear your rebuttal to this. You will say "Ah but doesnt this limit God removing his free will and free action?"

I would say no. We have no way of comprehending a being that exists in one eternal moment that spans all of time. He can "stand back" from time and observe it all. He doesnt follow time and act on it as the correct moment comes.

"For he chose us in him before the creation of the world"

I love the way C.S Lewis puts it:

“God, who needs nothing, loves into existence wholly superfluous creatures in order that He may love and perfect them. He creates the universe, already foreseeing - or should we say "seeing"? there are no tenses in God - the buzzing cloud of flies about the cross, the flayed back pressed against the uneven stake, the nails driven through the mesial nerves, the repeated incipient suffocation as the body droops, the repeated torture of back and arms as it is time after time, for breath's sake, hitched up. If I may dare the biological image, God is a "host" who deliberately creates His own parasites; causes us to be that we may exploit and "take advantage of" Him. Herein is love. This is the diagram of Love Himself, the inventor of all loves.”

For him everything happens at once. He creates the universe at the same time as being crucified and at the same time as anything else happens.

Sorry, but this is nonsense. Either you can comprehend it, and use it as an explanation for the problem at hand...or you can't. To say, "this is the way god works, and we can't comprehend it...but it fixes that problem of god not having free will!" is frankly, a cop out. If you don't comprehend it, how do you know god has free will choices?

Any choice exists in a temporal reality. There's a moment before the choice is made, a moment when the choice is made, and a moment after. To say that god has not yet made a choice, and simultaneously already made that choice...is a logical paradox. It's like saying god can make 1+1=3, or make a square circle, or make a weight so heavy he cannot lift it.

Is this really how you think of god? Or is this just the explanation you went to when you realized that your answer of "god can do evil, he just chooses not to" has some serious problems?

 

[The Gibborim]

Sorry, but this is nonsense. Either you can comprehend it, and use it as an explanation for the problem at hand...or you can't. To say, "this is the way god works, and we can't comprehend it...but it fixes that problem of god not having free will!" is frankly, a cop out. If you don't comprehend it, how do you know god has free will choices?

Any choice exists in a temporal reality. There's a moment before the choice is made, a moment when the choice is made, and a moment after. To say that god has not yet made a choice, and simultaneously already made that choice...is a logical paradox. It's like saying god can make 1+1=3, or make a square circle, or make a weight so heavy he cannot lift it.

Is this really how you think of god? Or is this just the explanation you went to when you realized that your answer of "god can do evil, he just chooses not to" has some serious problems?

I really think this way. There is no other way to think of him. If he created time he must be outside it just as if you create a painting, you must first be "outside" the painting. You are not governed by paint or paper only the painting is. You are not confined to 2D. You can step back and observe the painting from several angles in 3D.

It can be seen as a cop out but it is also true. God doesnt make choices like we make choices. If he does then I would argue that is a paradox.

If we are getting into logic as well then tbh God created that too and so technically he isnt confined by that either... I struggle when I get down this path of reasoning as it ends up a bit wacky...

 

[Ana the Ist]

I really think this way. There is no other way to think of him. If he created time he must be outside it just as if you create a painting, you must first be "outside" the painting. You are not governed by paint or paper only the painting is. You are not confined to 2D. You can step back and observe the painting from several angles in 3D.

I don't really want to get into explaining it to you...but there is no "outside" the universe. There's no place where the universe ends and outside of it begins. I know religious folk like to picture the universe in their head like it's a big fish bowl...and god is sitting outside of it somewhere, but that isn't the case. Anyways...

It can be seen as a cop out but it is also true. God doesnt make choices like we make choices. If he does then I would argue that is a paradox.

I don't see why it would be...it would make far more sense than what you're proposing. The way we make choices isn't a logical paradox...so if god made them the same way, we don't have all of these messy problems.

If we are getting into logic as well then tbh God created that too

Again, I know this is because you're a believer...so you like to imagine "logic" as this set of rules that govern reality, but they aren't. They're just a method we use for describing reality...no need for a creator.

For example, we use the word outside to describe...something which is outside of something else. We use the word inside to describe something that is inside something else. We also know that these two terms are mutually exclusive, because of their definitions...the way they describe reality. So when we say that something cannot be both inside something else and outside of it...it's not because some magical sky man wrote the law of non-contradiction...it's because that's how we describe reality.

and so technically he isnt confined by that either... I struggle when I get down this path of reasoning as it ends up a bit wacky...

You should struggle lol because it is effectively nonsense. You believe that god came to earth as a man and sacrificed himself, to himself, for the sins of mankind which go back to the first guy eating an apple he wasn't supposed to eat....which is tricky enough in itself.

When you say that god exists outside of time, however, you're not only saying that he's done these things I've described above...but he's also not yet done these things I've described above and (if he has free will) he may never choose to do these things I've described above.

That doesn't make any sense at all...either you believe god came to earth as Jesus or he didn't. You can't possibly believe that god did come to earth as Jesus, and he also has yet to come to earth as Jesus...and may never come to earth as Jesus. If god did it...and he made a choice to do it...then those choices exist in a linear temporal fashion.

 

[Belk]

I really think this way. There is no other way to think of him. If he created time he must be outside it just as if you create a painting, you must first be "outside" the painting. You are not governed by paint or paper only the painting is. You are not confined to 2D. You can step back and observe the painting from several angles in 3D.

It can be seen as a cop out but it is also true. God doesnt make choices like we make choices. If he does then I would argue that is a paradox.

If we are getting into logic as well then tbh God created that too and so technically he isnt confined by that either... I struggle when I get down this path of reasoning as it ends up a bit wacky...

Can you please tell me the passages in the bible that detail how the universe and time function?

 

[The Gibborim]

I don't really want to get into explaining it to you...but there is no "outside" the universe. There's no place where the universe ends and outside of it begins. I know religious folk like to picture the universe in their head like it's a big fish bowl...and god is sitting outside of it somewhere, but that isn't the case. Anyways...



I don't see why it would be...it would make far more sense than what you're proposing. The way we make choices isn't a logical paradox...so if god made them the same way, we don't have all of these messy problems.



Again, I know this is because you're a believer...so you like to imagine "logic" as this set of rules that govern reality, but they aren't. They're just a method we use for describing reality...no need for a creator.

For example, we use the word outside to describe...something which is outside of something else. We use the word inside to describe something that is inside something else. We also know that these two terms are mutually exclusive, because of their definitions...the way they describe reality. So when we say that something cannot be both inside something else and outside of it...it's not because some magical sky man wrote the law of non-contradiction...it's because that's how we describe reality.




You should struggle lol because it is effectively nonsense. You believe that god came to earth as a man and sacrificed himself, to himself, for the sins of mankind which go back to the first guy eating an apple he wasn't supposed to eat....which is tricky enough in itself.

When you say that god exists outside of time, however, you're not only saying that he's done these things I've described above...but he's also not yet done these things I've described above and (if he has free will) he may never choose to do these things I've described above.

That doesn't make any sense at all...either you believe god came to earth as Jesus or he didn't. You can't possibly believe that god did come to earth as Jesus, and he also has yet to come to earth as Jesus...and may never come to earth as Jesus. If god did it...and he made a choice to do it...then those choices exist in a linear temporal fashion.

Lets not get patronizing. Neither of us knows the intelligence or education of the other so lets just assume we have different ideas in our heads.

Do you think Denis the Menace as a concept of a cube? Denis has never been in 3D. He has only ever been in 2D. To him the page is all there is. It is impossible to think of anything outside of the page. How could there be. Everything is made from page. For there to be something outside it would have to be not page and thats just ridiculous.

You may think this is silly but I think it demonstrates a point.

Also, you may have issue with the phrasing of "outside" but when talking about supernature (outside of nature like super structure) all youre really left with is metaphor. You may say it sounds silly to have a man in the sky sitting on a throne who has a son (like the gods of Rome) and sends him down to Earth (as if he is parachuting from a great height). When the son dies he goes down to the underworld (as if the world was flat and could be passed through) and when he ascends he rises up in the air to join his father to sit a little to the right of his father who is sat in a jewel encrusted throne.

When talking about things not directly perceivable to the 5 senses you must use metaphor. its all there is. Take thought for example. We are having a discussion. I could say "I see your point." I dont mean that I visually spot a sharp object that is owned by you. I could say "I grasp your argument" but this would involve me reaching my hands into your head to grab your thoughts. I could say "Ah now I follow you" but im not really walking behind you to reach a destination. Try to talk about thought without using metaphor.

So it is with God. It may create an incorrect image but we really can not do any better. anything else you come up with will be equally as incorrect.

 

[The Gibborim]

Can you please tell me the passages in the bible that detail how the universe and time function?

Time space and matter are a continuum. If there was matter but no space WHERE would you put it. If there was matter but no time WHEN would you put it. They must all be created at the same instant.
Bible verse:
In the beginning (Time) God created the heavens (Space) and the Earth (matter)

If you create something you must be outside it. The bible says that God created the heavens and the Earth. Therefor he must first be outside.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Lets not get patronizing. Neither of us knows the intelligence or education of the other so lets just assume we have different ideas in our heads.

I'm not making assumptions about your intelligence...I imagined the universe in much the same way before I ever looked into it. I can understand a layman's explanation of the physics involved in how we know there isn't an outside of the universe...but mainly I'm trusting in the knowledge of experts.

Do you think Denis the Menace as a concept of a cube? Denis has never been in 3D. He has only ever been in 2D. To him the page is all there is. It is impossible to think of anything outside of the page. How could there be. Everything is made from page. For there to be something outside it would have to be not page and thats just ridiculous.

I don't think Dennis the Menace holds any concepts...he's a fictional character. I really only need to consider such things if someone were to claim he's real.

You may think this is silly but I think it demonstrates a point.

Also, you may have issue with the phrasing of "outside" but when talking about supernature (outside of nature like super structure) all youre really left with is metaphor. You may say it sounds silly to have a man in the sky sitting on a throne who has a son (like the gods of Rome) and sends him down to Earth (as if he is parachuting from a great height). When the son dies he goes down to the underworld (as if the world was flat and could be passed through) and when he ascends he rises up in the air to join his father to sit a little to the right of his father who is sat in a jewel encrusted throne.

I don't know what "supernature" is or what it refers to.

When talking about things not directly perceivable to the 5 senses you must use metaphor. its all there is. Take thought for example. We are having a discussion. I could say "I see your point." I dont mean that I visually spot a sharp object that is owned by you. I could say "I grasp your argument" but this would involve me reaching my hands into your head to grab your thoughts. I could say "Ah now I follow you" but im not really walking behind you to reach a destination. Try to talk about thought without using metaphor.

See, grasp, and follow aren't metaphors how you used them there...they each have alternate definitions which equate to "understand". Check it out..

Definition of FOLLOW

So it is with God. It may create an incorrect image but we really can not do any better. anything else you come up with will be equally as incorrect.

If we cannot understand these things about god...than the video in the beginning of the thread is merely speculation and guesses. It doesn't have any value beyond any guesses I might make.

 

[RDKirk]

Can you please tell me the passages in the bible that detail how the universe and time function?

Observation of nature is not excluded by the bible, but pointed out by the bible:

The heavens declare the glory of God,
and the sky proclaims the work of His hands.

Day after day they pour out speech;
night after night they communicate knowledge.

Quantum theory is not excluded by scripture.

 

[The Gibborim]

I'm not making assumptions about your intelligence...I imagined the universe in much the same way before I ever looked into it. I can understand a layman's explanation of the physics involved in how we know there isn't an outside of the universe...but mainly I'm trusting in the knowledge of experts.



I don't think Dennis the Menace holds any concepts...he's a fictional character. I really only need to consider such things if someone were to claim he's real.



I don't know what "supernature" is or what it refers to.



See, grasp, and follow aren't metaphors how you used them there...they each have alternate definitions which equate to "understand". Check it out..

Definition of FOLLOW



If we cannot understand these things about god...than the video in the beginning of the thread is merely speculation and guesses. It doesn't have any value beyond any guesses I might make.

"If we cannot understand these things about god...than the video in the beginning of the thread is merely speculation and guesses. It doesn't have any value beyond any guesses I might make."

This is what the whole video is about. It is about God maintaining a logically consistant world for us so that we can act freely. Its about him NOT disrupting the laws of logic too often to that we can act in a world that is predictable. If we are talking about the God of the bible then we have to accept everything that is claimed he did. He brought a man back from the dead, parted a sea, used a few fish and loafs of bread to feed 5000. All these things break logic. We can not break logic becuase it is just an inherent part of the universe that we live in. The being who created the universe, who created matter, time, causality, he is not confined by it. The video was saying how God chooses not to break logic too often so that we can love freely.

"I don't think Dennis the Menace holds any concepts...he's a fictional character. I really only need to consider such things if someone were to claim he's real."

Come on. Use your imagination. Im trying to make a point about a 2 dimensional being trying to comprehend 3D and how it couldnt do it. I was trying to do this to show how a 3 dimensional being (4 if you include time) can not comprehend more dimensions that they already exist in. How would you explain 5D or 6D? Apparently there are 13 dimensions.

Ok so you dont like the word "outside". Lets choose a different one. God exist throughout the universe. He existed before matter but created matter. the whole universe was created at the same time so that must mean he is equal or greater in size to the universe (note these are useless terms to use about a being not made of matter but really, what other option is there.)

 

[Noxot]

if a bowl is submerged in water then the water is both inside and outside of it. or you could just say that the bowl is inside of the water. it does not seem illogical to me to say something is both inside and outside of time.

 

[Belk]

Time space and matter are a continuum. If there was matter but no space WHERE would you put it. If there was matter but no time WHEN would you put it. They must all be created at the same instant.

In our current cosmology, yes. This does not mean it must be this way.

Bible verse:
In the beginning (Time) God created the heavens (Space) and the Earth (matter)

Uh huh. Where is the detailed description in the bible? You see you are making claims that modern science can not substantiate so I am assuming you have gotten this information from the bible. Otherwise you are simply making claims without evidence.

If you create something you must be outside it. The bible says that God created the heavens and the Earth. Therefor he must first be outside.

According to whom? You are not taking your experience inside the universe and asserting it applies when no universe exists are you?

 

[zephcom]

if a bowl is submerged in water then the water is both inside and outside of it. or you could just say that the bowl is inside of the water. it does not seem illogical to me to say something is both inside and outside of time.

It may not seem illogical to you to say that something is both inside and outside of time, but what you are really saying is that something is both inside and outside of the universe. That is because time is actually one of the dimensions which define the universe itself.

A something which is in the universe would need to be composed of elements which comprise the universe. So far, our logic tells us that if something is composed of elements which comprise the universe that something is restricted to the universe.

It is illogical to theorize something which is both restricted to the universe and not restricted to the universe.

People seem to be far too willing to accept logical impossibilities as real when it comes to God and religion.

Personally, I have no problem with 'God' being restricted to this universe and being restricted by time. Let's face it, an intelligence which permeates the entire universe as we know it today would certainly qualify as 'God'.

 

[Noxot]

if I think of something it is inside of me but in some sense I am outside of it due to what thinks being greater than the thought