A lighthearted look into why God cares about free will:

[The Gibborim]

Any thoughts?

 

[zephcom]

Lots of thoughts about free will. No thoughts at all about God caring.

Free will is something modern Christianity seems determined to insist that everyone has despite the fact that their religion takes away free will at nearly every turn.

Prophecy, for instance, can not possibly exist if free will exists.

 

[Introverted1293]

He makes a very good point. I was going to come back with an argument. But he does make a very good point.

Although it doesn't always seem like a free choice, if the reason why you are obeying him is out of fear of God's wrath and punishment. My reason for wanting to obey him is out of fear.

 

[zephcom]

He makes a very good point. I was going to come back with an argument. But he does make a very good point.

Although it doesn't always seem like a free choice, if the reason why you are obeying him is out of fear of God's wrath and punishment. My reason for wanting to obey him is out of fear.

Fear of God's wrath and punishment is, IMMHO, a really poor reason to obey Him.

Divine Love has no wrath or punishment component at all. Wrath and punishment are human emotions brought into religion by the humans who want to rule in the physical realm.

Read Jesus' teachings and leave out all others to find the real nature of God.

 

[The Gibborim]

Lots of thoughts about free will. No thoughts at all about God caring.

Free will is something modern Christianity seems determined to insist that everyone has despite the fact that their religion takes away free will at nearly every turn.

Prophecy, for instance, can not possibly exist if free will exists.

I think prophecy doesn't remove free will. If I time traveled to the future and saw that you ate cornflakes for breakfast tomorrow, that doesn't remove the choice you made to have them.

 

[Introverted1293]

Fear of God's wrath and punishment is, IMMHO, a really poor reason to obey Him.

Divine Love has no wrath or punishment component at all. Wrath and punishment are human emotions brought into religion by the humans who want to rule in the physical realm.

Read Jesus' teachings and leave out all others to find the real nature of God.

You are probably right.

But I hope there is mercy for those who do obey him out of fear.

I don't fully understand God I guess. God created hell for those who disobey him, and yet he doesn't want us to fear. I guess I don't understand. But I won't question him, for I know that I'm human. God is God. And his judgments are perfect.

I just pray that as a seek to obey him, which I am far from perfect, there will be mercy. Because it is out of fear that I seek to obey him.

 

[zephcom]

I think prophecy doesn't remove free will. If I time traveled to the future and saw that you ate cornflakes for breakfast tomorrow, that doesn't remove the choice you made to have them.

Actually, it does remove free will.

Here is the problem with your time machine illustration:

When you tell me that you saw me eat cornflakes for breakfast tomorrow, if I have free will, I -could- have bacon and eggs tomorrow just to prove you wrong. However, if what you saw was absolute, then I would not have the ability to eat anything but cornflakes and would not have the free will to change.

The issue does not revolve around what you saw from your time machine. The issue revolves around whether what you saw is absolute or could be changed.

When we bring this back to religion and God, the classic definition of God is that God's knowledge is absolute...it can not be in error. -IF- this God claims to know what is going to happen in the future, the fact that He can not be wrong means people can not make any choice except that which God has seen them make.

Bringing this even closer to Christianity, if Jesus said that Judas would rat Him out, Judas could NOT have changed his mind because Jesus got all His information directly from God and God can not be made wrong by definition. Judas did not have free will.

Now that we KNOW humans do not have free will, the Christian concept that each person HAS to confess Jesus to acquire salvation becomes a cruel joke because no one has the free will to do that.

 

[zephcom]

You are probably right.

But I hope there is mercy for those who do obey him out of fear.

I don't fully understand God I guess. God created hell for those who disobey him, and yet he doesn't want us to fear. I guess I don't understand. But I won't question him, for I know that I'm human. God is God. And his judgments are perfect.

I just pray that as a seek to obey him, which I am far from perfect, there will be mercy. Because it is out of fear that I seek to obey him.

If my understanding of God is accurate, and I try to understand God as Jesus presented Him, His Divine Love will overcome everything negative including fear.

Life in this realm happens to allow us to learn and grow spiritually. Your journey through life is one of growth just as mine is. I doubt God will let you fail in your journey here.

 

[Chesterton]

When we bring this back to religion and God, the classic definition of God is that God's knowledge is absolute...it can not be in error. -IF- this God claims to know what is going to happen in the future, the fact that He can not be wrong means people can not make any choice except that which God has seen them make.

I think you're overlooking the fact that God sees it after it has happened, from His view.

 

[possibletarian]

Actually, it does remove free will.

Here is the problem with your time machine illustration:

When you tell me that you saw me eat cornflakes for breakfast tomorrow, if I have free will, I -could- have bacon and eggs tomorrow just to prove you wrong. However, if what you saw was absolute, then I would not have the ability to eat anything but cornflakes and would not have the free will to change.

That does not exclude you choosing freely to eat cornflakes though, just that someone has the knowledge that you will choose cornflakes. Not that your free choice is changed in any way.

A bit like knowing the end of a movie, you know exactly what will happen but you had absolutely no influence over it at any stage. Generally when Christians talk about free will they mean free from God's perspective and what they mean is 'God let me choose freely' (especially in the area of believing)

I think the whole free will thing is not really an issue anyway, the common scientific understanding is that we don't have it. I found this interested not overly technical article that is a decent read.

There’s No Such Thing as Free Will

 

[zephcom]

I think you're overlooking the fact that God sees it after it has happened, from His view.

No, I didn't overlook that. We look at history after it happens and no one ever demonstrates free will when we look back. For instance, President Kennedy ALWAYS goes to Dallas on -that- day. He never changes his mind. And I'm thinking that if he had free will to change his mind, he would.

In reality, it really doesn't matter when God looks, once He knows we are powerless to make Him wrong. A choice of one thing is not free will.

 

[zephcom]

That does not exclude you choosing freely to eat cornflakes though, just that someone has the knowledge that you will choose cornflakes. Not that your free choice is changed in any way.

A bit like knowing the end of a movie, you know exactly what will happen but you had absolutely no influence over it at any stage. Generally when Christians talk about free will they mean free from God's perspective and what they mean is 'God let me choose freely' (especially in the area of believing)

I think the whole free will thing is not really an issue anyway, the common scientific understanding is that we don't have it. I found this interested not overly technical article that is a decent read.

There’s No Such Thing as Free Will

If you will allow me to disagree with you on what Christians mean when they say 'free will', I will point out that when Christians -I- know say free will, they mean me and why I'm going to hell because I didn't exercise my free will to ask for salvation.

As far as the cornflakes go, I COULD have chosen them and made you correct. But that doesn't change anything in my comments because if your knowledge was absolute, I couldn't have chosen anything else under any circumstance.

If we are going to go with the common scientific understanding that we don't have free will, would someone PLEASE tell all these Christians going door-to-door, going on missions across the planet, and generally just harassing anyone and everyone they see that they HAVE to accept Jesus on the terms of their religion or rot in hell because they have free will to either accept Jesus or reject Him.

The religion is wrong to blame people for not choosing Jesus since the people have no choice.

 

[Chesterton]

No, I didn't overlook that. We look at history after it happens and no one ever demonstrates free will when we look back. For instance, President Kennedy ALWAYS goes to Dallas on -that- day. He never changes his mind. And I'm thinking that if he had free will to change his mind, he would.

In reality, it really doesn't matter when God looks, once He knows we are powerless to make Him wrong. A choice of one thing is not free will.

Well yeah, once you do something it's sorta etched in stone forever, but not before you do it.

When you watch a movie on DVD, and replay it and watch it again, you didn't cause the actions in the movie just because you can watch the characters doing the same thing over and over.

 

[possibletarian]

As far as the cornflakes go, I COULD have chosen them and made you correct. But that doesn't change anything in my comments because if your knowledge was absolute, I couldn't have chosen anything else under any circumstance.

In that case my absolute knowledge would be that you freely choose to eat cornflakes. I had absolutely no influence on it by knowing that.

 

[zephcom]

Well yeah, once you do something it's sorta etched in stone forever, but not before you do it.

When you watch a movie on DVD, and replay it and watch it again, you didn't cause the actions in the movie just because you can watch the characters doing the same thing over and over.

I didn't say that God or you caused caused people to not have choices. It is the knowledge of the choice that removed free will. It is a sort of Schrodinger's Cat situation.

God doesn't cause us to do anything in the manner that a director causes actors to say and do things. It is merely possessing knowledge of sufficient certainty that it can not be made wrong.

Your cornflakes and time machine might not fit into that category. In truth, a time machine may only provide you with one possible future and when I don't eat the cornflakes I have merely made a minor change in the future.

God is a different situation because we define God, in part, by the fact that He can not be wrong. If God possesses knowledge of how I'm going to do something tomorrow, then I can not do anything else but that or I've made God wrong.

And, by our definition of God, I've just made God -not- God if I do something different than what He knew I would do.

 

[zephcom]

In that case my absolute knowledge would be that you freely choose to eat cornflakes. I had absolutely no influence on it by knowing that.

Ah, see my other post on the idea of 'causing' me to do something. I never said you 'caused' me to do it. I only said it removed my free will. That is a different thing entirely.

 

[possibletarian]

Ah, see my other post on the idea of 'causing' me to do something. I never said you 'caused' me to do it. I only said it removed my free will. That is a different thing entirely.

How would me knowing what you choose remove you freedom to choose cornflakes, unless it caused it somehow ?

 

[zephcom]

How would me knowing what you choose remove you freedom to choose cornflakes, unless it caused it somehow ?

Just as in the Schrodinger's Cat situation, all possibilities exist until someone looks. Then all the possibilities collapse into just the one that the observer sees.

In some respects you would 'cause' it but what you caused is the collapse of possibilities and not a particular action. In other words, you didn't cause me to eat cornflakes but, by looking, you collapsed all the other things I could have had into just cornflakes. And now I HAVE to have cornflakes because the knowledge of my choice is known.

It is the same thing as everyone being in the 'now' and watching me have cornflakes except you cheated and used a time machine to look into the future. Since you did that, I no longer can have anything else. (I'm assuming your knowledge is absolute here)

And that is the problem with God knowing the future. There is no restriction on who the observer is because it is the knowledge and not the person.

We could go on through life always thinking we had free will because our lives feel like we do. But once God starts blabbing about the future, we know that free will doesn't exist. It can't possibly exist if God already knows how it comes out.

 

[possibletarian]

Just as in the Schrodinger's Cat situation, all possibilities exist until someone looks. Then all the possibilities collapse into just the one that the observer sees.

How does it relate exactly ? The one that observer sees is the one that is currently known in the same time as the knowledge is gained.

In some respects you would 'cause' it but what you caused is the collapse of possibilities and not a particular action. In other words, you didn't cause me to eat cornflakes but, by looking, you collapsed all the other things I could have had into just cornflakes. And now I HAVE to have cornflakes because the knowledge of my choice is known.

No I'm not collapsing or limiting anything into anything, I have simply seen the future.

It is the same thing as everyone being in the 'now' and watching me have cornflakes except you cheated and used a time machine to look into the future. Since you did that, I no longer can have anything else. (I'm assuming your knowledge is absolute here)

It is known you will have cornflakes, but the choice was made by you in the future, I simply know about it.

And that is the problem with God knowing the future. There is no restriction on who the observer is because it is the knowledge and not the person.

I'm not sure what that means

We could go on through life always thinking we had free will because our lives feel like we do. But once God starts blabbing about the future, we know that free will doesn't exist. It can't possibly exist if God already knows how it comes out.

I don't believe in free will either, but that lack of belief does not come from believing that knowing the future locks anyone into anything, as they still actually choose in the future, it's simply known or seen what they will choose.

Of course the whole discussion is academic I have never yet met anyone who can truly see the future ( as opposed to having valid reasons to predict what will happen) as for biblical prophecy it seems so vague as to be able to be applied to multiple events.

 

[zephcom]

How does it relate exactly ? The one that observer sees is the one that is currently known in the same time as the knowledge is gained.



No I'm not collapsing or limiting anything into anything, I have simply seen the future.

By seeing the future, you limit my choice to -one- thing. Having only one thing to choose from is not free will.

It is known you will have cornflakes, but the choice was made by you in the future, I simply know about it.

Certainly I 'chose' cornflakes. But that is only the way I feel about it, it is not the actual variety of things I could have had. A choice of one thing is not a choice at all.


I'm not sure what that means



I don't believe in free will either, but that lack of belief does not come from believing that knowing the future locks anyone into anything, as they still actually choose in the future, it's simply known or seen what they will choose.

And because you know, they can't do anything else. They perceive they have chosen from all the options. What -they- don't know is your knowledge reduced all the options to just one.

Of course the whole discussion is academic I have never yet met anyone who can truly see the future ( as opposed to having valid reasons to predict what will happen) as for biblical prophecy it seems so vague as to be able to be applied to multiple events.

For you and me it is academic. For a lot of people on the planet, they structure their entire lives around the concept that 'prophecy' is accurate while at the very same time they insist that others have the free will to choose or reject their God with a resultant afterlife of either heaven or hell.

And some of those people are in charge of rather large and influential governments. They should be told they believe two things which can not both be true.