A letter to my ex pastor

[Emerald518]

My former pastor, who is also a relative of mine, was at a family gathering yesterday and when she snottily aske me why I avoid her, I decided to go home and write her this letter calling her out on how she treated me when I was going to her and her husband's church. It's only about half of what I want to say to her, but it feels so good to get this out in the open:


"Dear *name of cousin/ex-pastor*,

When I saw you today, you asked me if you had ever done anything to me that would make me want to avoid you. I answered “no”, because initially your question caught me off guard, but the more I think about it, the more I can’t keep to myself something I probably should have told you a long time ago…I am not writing this out of vitriol or anger, but I am writing it in order to give myself closure and as a way of helping me let go of what happened and be able to forgive so that the anger I feel does not have any hold over me and neither will you have any control over my life.

The truth is that, yes, I do avoid you and yes, you did do something to me. When I was going to **name of her and husband's church** and under your pastoral care, I came to you for help and advice about a situation that I was going through and had been going through all my life. For years leading up to that day, my father had been mentally-emotionally and physically abusive to me and I had never told anyone outside of my immediate family. Why I waited so long, I don’t know, but I believe I didn’t out of fear that if I told someone, nothing would be done to help me or make it better...when I finally did get the courage to open up to someone about it, I chose you because you were my pastor, you were family and I was sure that because of those two things, you would help me get out of that horrible situation…after all, if God really did lead me to join your church, then it meant that you would help me in regards to all of this, wouldn’t it? But I could not have been more wrong in my assumption even if I'd tried…



I came to you for help, and instead of being comforted was told by you that the reason things between my father and I were as bad as they were was because I wasn’t a good enough daughter or Christian, that if I did better, prayed more, read more scripture and was more of a servant to my father, then he would stop doing the things he was doing to me. Desperate for change, I did everything you told me to do and when they didn’t get better, I came to you again only to have more guilt and blame dumped on me for not being good enough. You told me it was my responsibility to change things in my family and my responsibility to change my father’s heart because I was the only Christian in my household and you also told me that allowing people to abuse and mistreat me was “the Christian thing to do”…you justified it by saying that when He was on the cross, Jesus Christ allowed people to abuse and mistreat Him and if I was a Christian, I should want to be like Jesus and if I wanted to be like Jesus, then I had to allow people to hurt, mistreat and abuse me however they wanted. In addition, you also told me that God would judge me for not only my sins, but that He would also place the guilt of my father’s sins on me and judge me for them too if I didn't forgive him and let him keep abusing me "for the sake of the Gospel and the cause of Christ", that God didn’t care about what happened to me once I got saved because I was “good to go” and that God cared more about my abusive father than He did about me. I left church that day hurt and angry and with one thing on my mind: that God hated me and was allowing all of these terrible things that were going on in my life to happen to me because He hated me…and then for the next two years until I left the Pentecostal Church, I was afraid of and angry at God…



It wasn’t until two years after that terrible day and the day I got baptized at **name of church I go to now** that God showed up and showed me who He really was. He also showed me the truth about what had been going on when I was in both your church and in **name of church**, where I went shortly after your church closed its doors. God showed me that I had been the victim of false teaching and spiritual abuse and that I’d been deceived. God also showed me that I had been under demonic oppression and influence and that the things that go on in many modern Pentecostal Churches are NOT things that come from the Holy Spirit, but rather are Satanic counterfeits…scripture confirms this in several passages, saying that in the last days, Satan will be actively doing everything he can possibly do to deceive people and turn them away from the knowledge of the truth (there are too many scriptures to list in one message, so I’ve provided a link that gives a complete listing of them here if you care to read: What Does the Bible Say About Deception By Satan In Last Days?.) God also showed me that there are many, many people in the church today who think that they know Christ and are saved, but in reality are not and when they come before Him on the day of judgment, they will be shocked when He looks them in the face and tells them that He never knew them…this is the teaching of Matthew 7:21-23.



After I was baptized, things were finally starting to get better. In the two years leading up to that wonderful day, God prepared me to step into the ministry that He had called me into, a calling which I cannot deny had happened and orchestrated and provided me with everything that I needed in order to walk in it. He made a way for me to go back to school, He lead me to join **name of church I go to now** and their college ministry, **name of ministry** and when the day finally came, I was growing like a weed in my walk with Christ. I was on fire and so much so that I only had to glance at the scriptures before immediately knowing and understanding what they meant, and there were many things I had been taught in both your church and in **name of other church I went to** that I realized were wrong. God also showed me that the He allowed me to go into those two churches and endure what I did because His calling on my life was not only to be a musician, but also to help people who are deceived find the truth…after all, how could I help those who were under Matthew 7:21-23 if I didn’t experience it for myself? God generously and graciously blessed me with everything I could have ever wanted…but unfortunately, things didn’t turn out the way they should have…



There was a decision that I had to make…I wanted to quit the job that I was working at that hospital so I could focus completely on school, however, doing so meant that I would risk taking out student loan debt in order to accomplish that. At some point along the lines and during those two years (I can’t remember exactly if it was in your church or not, but I believe the reinforcement of this belief came later when I was in **name of other church I went to**), someone planted the idea in my head that student loan debt was sinful and if I dared to take it out or even put myself in a position where I would risk having to do it, then it would be just one more thing that God would punish me for and the worst sin that I could possibly commit. It was a belief that was drilled so far into my head that it stuck around long after I was out of the terrible, chaotic, unscriptural, fanatical, abusive and spiritually ignorant “Christian” denomination that is Pentecostalism and something that I was not able to shake. Now looking back, the reason I wanted to quit that job so badly was because God placed that desire on my heart, but wanting to obey scripture and please God as much as I possibly could because of how much I loved Him once He did what He did for me, I kept resisting thinking that it was nothing more than Satanic temptation and another attempt by him to deceive me. As a result, I ended up missing the door of opportunity that God opened for me and all of it was gone in an instant. I was angry and hurt all over again and for the past four years, have been angry at God just the way that I was when I was in your church. While I’m finally starting to get to the place where I’m not angry at God anymore, I’m still angry for other reasons…I’m angry that this was allowed to happen to me, I’m angry at myself for believing the things that I did and I’m also angry that someone who could claim to know the Father in Heaven and be in a position of leadership over His people could do and say something so horrible to someone who comes to them in a time of need and when they’re afraid, hurting and in desperate need of help. What you did in telling me that my father’s treatment of me was my fault and that I essentially deserved it for not being good enough was just about the most un-Christian thing that anyone who claims to be a follower of Christ could do and even though I’m not angry at you for doing what you did, I’m still absolutely disgusted by what happened. Romans 8 opens by saying that there is now therefore no condemnation in Christ Jesus, and further in that passage it also states in verses 8:33-34 that if God justifies us, then NO ONE has any right to bring charge against us who are His elect…you heaped condemnation on me when you told me that things between my father and I were my fault, a judgment that you not only had no right to make, but one that left me with lasting scars and one that God Himself would not DARE to make.



God also graciously showed me back in January of 2018 that the real reason I walked away from all that He had wanted for me back in 2015 was because I wrongly thought that I had earned all of it through suffering everything that I did and that I had to keep doing things so I would stay good enough to have all of it, because on my own and apart from doing those things, I wasn’t good enough to have them. I have no right to blame you or say that the choices I made were your fault, because despite what things may influence us to do certain things, we still have a choice to let them defeat us or overcome them, to obey or disobey God’s will…however as I said, certain things can definitely have an influence on us and I am certain that the things that I was told and taught both by you and by other people who used the name of God to exploit, manipulate and otherwise mistreat me and lead me astray definitely had a very heavy influence on what happened back there. God will not only call my actions into account on that day, but He will also do the same to you and to every person who has ever walked this earth…Romans 2 also teaches that no one is above or able to escape God’s judgment and just because you may be in a position of leadership or have a certain calling in your life or that because you call people out over their sins and “do God’s job” by judging them doesn’t meant that your sins aren’t any less heinous or that God would “overlook them”...rather, judgment begins in the house of God (1 Peter 4:17) and those who teach and hold leadership positions are judged more harshly than others because God has entrusted them with caring for His people (James 3:1). Both in your church and in **name of other church I went to**, not only was I taught incorrect doctrine, but there were many things that I was never taught and this ignorance was what lead me to be victimized by this counterfeit Christianity…I was never taught how to analyze scripture, I was never taught the proper way to pray and knowing that God showed me that I was never a true believer until the day I was baptized, I was obviously never taught the Gospel as the scriptures teach it…the Gospel is not “signs and wonders will follow those who believe”, but rather, the Gospel as I know to be true now is “Christ died for the ungodly” and “not by works, but by faith alone in Jesus Christ”…and not only does scripture say that in the last days many will depart from the faith, be deceived and have itching ears when it comes to following sound doctrine, but God also declares “my people perish from lack of knowledge” (Hosea 4:6). Because I was never taught the true Gospel during my years as a Pentecostal and because I was taught works instead of grace, I came out with a lot of damage and a lot of ignorance and fear that caused me to go down a very wrong path…as far as I am concerned, all of what God wanted to give me was stolen, snatched right out my hands by false teachers and false teaching who influenced me into making the choices that I made.

Contrary to a verse that many so-called Christians take out of context and use so that no one will call them out and hurt their pride, the Bible never says that we are not to judge; instead, it says that when we DO judge, we are not to judge unrighteously. Scripture also says that we will know a tree by its fruit and those who do know Jesus Christ and belong to Him exhibit the fruits of spirit as outline in Galatians 5:22-23, which are love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness and self-control. It also states in 1 Corinthians 13 that love is patient, kind, does not envy, is not rude, is not self-seeking and does not dishonor others. Furthermore, the Bible also says that people we will know that we belong to Christ by the love that we show for others, because as Christians it is our duty to imitate our Father in Heaven by loving others as He loves us, because God is love. What you did in telling me the things that you told me was not love….you dishonored me and you provoked me to anger. In other behaviors that I see of you, you are arrogant, self-seeking, proud and immature. I even see evidence of this in how your church came to be founded, something that God also revealed to me after I left…you were angry that your former pastor called you out on some of your behaviors when you were in your old church…you tried to take over his ministry and when he didn’t let you do what you wanted and kicked you out, you started your own church as a way of getting revenge on him by attempting to steal his congregation away from him. You said that it was because you wanted you help people who had been hurt by your former church…but what I’m sure that you don’t realize is that the damage you were trying to help people heal from was damage that you had caused by your behavior when you tore your former church apart. Based on this, it is my inference, that you do not truly know Jesus Christ at all and never have, and rather than being under the influence of the Holy Spirit, you are under the influence of the Spirit of Jezebel, a wolf in sheep’s clothing and Satan has been leading you by the nose the entire time. Just as well, if I did not truly know the Gospel when I was in your church, then it is clear to me that you do not know the truth for yourself, because you cannot teach someone what you do not know…this is what scripture speaks of when it speaks of the blind leading the blind. Judgment beings in the house of God, Sherry…

The last and final thing that I have to say to you is that contrary to what you told me, God NEVER asks us to willingly put ourselves in a position where we allow others to hurt us if what is happening to us is not persecution for His name’s sake…rather, God also tells us many times in the Proverbs to be careful with whom we associate with so we are not influenced by their bad behavior and in the New Testament that if a brother or sister in Christ does not repent once we lovingly correct them, then we are to treat them as an unbeliever and an apostate. I do not know if you will realize what you need to realize after you’ve read this letter, but I pray that you would realize that you need to repent and seek the face of God and ask for His forgiveness of your sins, believe and be saved. If not, then I do not wish you any ill will and will continue to pray that God releases you of your bondage and that you come to know Christ, but I do not wish to see you again."

I still have a lot more to go and it's all pouring out of me like water, but there it is...black and white, no frills...I feel such peace...

 

[JacobKStarkey]

Everyone has every right to put toxic people, including family, out of one's life.

We have had to do that with a daughter and my wife's sister.

They are not "safe" persons to be around. Regarding your former family member and former pastor, expect no joy in return but only recrimination and hateful attacks.

And anyone who talks about women being servants to men breeds a particular brew of toxic religious belief, in my opinion.

I support your decisions 100%, Emerald518,

 

[Endeavourer]

What a path you have traveled!!

My caution to you is that your cousin sounds like a psychopath, i.e. someone who is self focused and feels no empathy for others. To a certain extent you may be throwing your pearls before the swine, so to speak, in this letter.

If you send it, I'd caution you to expect either (a) she never acknowledges it so, or (b) she decides to cause more trouble in your life than she has already. Be sure you are strong enough for the second option before sending it.

Based on what you have described, I would not expect this letter to cause her to examine herself or change her behaviors.

 

[Emerald518]

Thanks, everyone. I'm glad that this is getting mostly positive reviews, however I am still working on the ending. I have been approached by several other people that I've had take a look at this and say that I shouldn't call her faith into question because it sounds too "mean" or whatever, but the thing is, I'm not trying to be mean. The reason that there is so much heresy and false teaching in the church today is because too many people shy away from giving "tough love" when they need to....Jesus wasn't "nice" to the Pharisees and Sadducees for the sake of them coming to repentence...He was not afraid to openly call them out and condemn them for the heretical snakes and wolves in sheep's clothing that they were and when God put that ministry on my life, I believe that He may have very well have intended for me to call people out like that....I can't be too sure though because I never really got the chance to walk in it before I made it go away...thoughts?

 

[topher694]

Thanks, everyone. I'm glad that this is getting mostly positive reviews, however I am still working on the ending. I have been approached by several other people that I've had take a look at this and say that I shouldn't call her faith into question because it sounds too "mean" or whatever, but the thing is, I'm not trying to be mean. The reason that there is so much heresy and false teaching in the church today is because too many people shy away from giving "tough love" when they need to....Jesus wasn't "nice" to the Pharisees and Sadducees for the sake of them coming to repentence...He was not afraid to openly call them out and condemn them for the heretical snakes and wolves in sheep's clothing that they were and when God put that ministry on my life, I believe that He may have very well have intended for me to call people out like that....I can't be too sure though because I never really got the chance to walk in it before I made it go away...thoughts?

I'm really sorry you had to go through this. I've been in the position many times to try to help people pick up the pieces after something like this, and it's really hard. I've also been through something somewhat similar myself. So, stay strong and trust in God.

I have a couple observations/suggestions, feel free to take them or leave them, but as I said, I've got experience with these things:

• The main issue here is wrong hearts/motives, ignorance, and spiritual baggage they carried with them as they started their church (as you observed). However, don't let their abuse of certain truths turn you away from those truths. You are right, Christ did die for the ungodly, which is all of us. That is a foundation of our faith. But "these signs will follow those who believe" is biblical too. It's not one or the other, it is both. I sense you understand this, but just a warning not to let their issues turn you away from His truth in ANY way.

• I totally get writing this letter to be therapeutic. I did something very similar once myself. But I have a suggestion to consider. Finish this letter to your satisfaction, but don't send it. After you are done send a different one, and her is why:

• As your friend suggested, they won't take it well. Especially challenging their faith/beliefs in any form or fashion... even if you are 1000% right, they won't take it well.

• This will probably lead to more drama for you in some manner... In my opinion, that isn't worth it, you've had enough drama from them.

• You have a lot in there about scripture, God's nature and so on. The more of that stuff you have in there like that, the more they can pick it apart (that's what happens on these forums every day). That leaves you defending your stance or gives them something to point to (even erroneously) to discredit you and everything you said... that's what people like this do.

• If you do the above suggestion, then in your second letter that you do send to them do the following:

• Make it short and to the point, you don't need to get into specifics.

• Focus on your hurt and need for healing.

• Don't be afraid to take responsibility for your shortcomings and apologize... this is biblical and it will throw them off (and that is biblical too)

• For example: ... honestly I have been avoiding you, and I'm sorry if that has hurt or offended you in any way, but several years ago I opened myself up to you and the response I received really caused me even more hurt and confusion. It has been a source of struggle for me ever since and it is something that I am still dealing with and trying to heal from. I have made significant progress, but I'm not all the way there yet. I am sorry if this upsets you in any way, that is not my intent. However, I would ask that you respect the healing process, give me the space and time I need to heal and not press the issue further.

• Now that would be much, much more difficult for them to create an issue out of, however, there is still a good chance that they will try. But in the long run it may prove to be more effective.

As I said feel free to take it or leave it. It is not a criticism of you in any way shape or form. Just my own personal experience. I wrote a letter like you did once... it was great! Boy did I tell that person what they needed to hear! Then when I was all done with the letter, God had me delete it and write something short and sweet and less pointed than my original. And, in the end it turned out way better for me to do that.

Blessings

 

[Endeavourer]

I totally get writing this letter to be therapeutic. I did something very similar once myself. But I have a suggestion to consider. Finish this letter to your satisfaction, but don't send it. After you are done send a different one,

Yes, Tofpher, I concur with this advice. Thank you for writing such a great explanation. Earlier I had started a draft to say the letter was too long and opened more exposure than she needed but I did not have the time to put the thought into it that you did so I abandoned my post. Thank you for posting your GREAT advice.

I've also been in a place 2x where church "leaders" perpetrated some devastating abuse. Generally confronting someone who is inclined to abuse just doesn't go well. I confronted one (also a family member) who dug in his heels and punched back 2x as hard. When an abuser has Scriptures twisted up in their heads they just aren't thinking straight - and the feel justified in their thinking!

The family member I confronted (as gently and caringly as I could possibly do, after many hours put into drafting a simple message) responded very harshly because he felt that if he was angry he wasn't sinning, per (Eph 4:26 Be angry and sin not...) He is a "ruling elder" in a large denomination and has served with other elders for many years. His anger only increased at me because he felt I was censuring his speech (when I wanted him to stop his abuse and treat me with civility). So now we have a total breach in the family and I'm not sure I can muster up a desire to attend our next family reunion, even though my mom has a form of cancer so there likely won't be too many more.

The 2nd time I received spiritual abuse was from a beloved pastor who decided I was an inconvenient member of his congregation, I guess. I had some battle scars that couldn't be nicely hidden in fine Sunday clothes (somewhat literally, lol), and he attacked me personally so I would resign instead of continue attending his church with that visible sign of my scars. I wrote a letter to him which I haven't sent. Some day I might. Who knows. While I do not have closure in this case, perhaps not having closure from him is more peaceful than engaging him.

 

[topher694]

Yes, Tofpher, I concur with this advice. Thank you for writing such a great explanation. Earlier I had started a draft to say the letter was too long and opened more exposure than she needed but I did not have the time to put the thought into it that you did so I abandoned my post. Thank you for posting your GREAT advice.

I've also been in a place 2x where church "leaders" perpetrated some devastating abuse. Generally confronting someone who is inclined to abuse just doesn't go well. I confronted one (also a family member) who dug in his heels and punched back 2x as hard. When an abuser has Scriptures twisted up in their heads they just aren't thinking straight - and the feel justified in their thinking!

The family member I confronted (as gently and caringly as I could possibly do, after many hours put into drafting a simple message) responded very harshly because he felt that if he was angry he wasn't sinning, per (Eph 4:26 Be angry and sin not...) He is a "ruling elder" in a large denomination and has served with other elders for many years. His anger only increased at me because he felt I was censuring his speech (when I wanted him to stop his abuse and treat me with civility). So now we have a total breach in the family and I'm not sure I can muster up a desire to attend our next family reunion, even though my mom has a form of cancer so there likely won't be too many more.

The 2nd time I received spiritual abuse was from a beloved pastor who decided I was an inconvenient member of his congregation, I guess. I had some battle scars that couldn't be nicely hidden in fine Sunday clothes (somewhat literally, lol), and he attacked me personally so I would resign instead of continue attending his church with that visible sign of my scars. I wrote a letter to him which I haven't sent. Some day I might. Who knows. While I do not have closure in this case, perhaps not having closure from him is more peaceful than engaging him.

You are very welcome. I encourage you - as I would anyone in this case - not to let the issues of former leaders discourage you from trusting others in the future. Sure, be wise. Learn from those situations. Don't give away trust too freely or easily, but don't close yourself off from it either. That's how the enemy uses us and can ultimately turn us into the very thing that we escaped from. (I suspect that might be what happened to the leaders in your situations). It probably won't be easy at first, that's ok, just don't close yourself off to it.

As long as we are on the topic, here's one thing that I learned and have been doing myself and in ministry that has helped me tremendously. It is very easy as we grow and experience things like this to become enamored with the idea of calling out "false" or "wrong" things. While there certainly is a time and a place for that. What I've found is more productive and healing is not to focus on what others are doing wrong, but to focus on demonstrating what is right. To be the example of the authentic vs pointing out the inauthentic. It is much more productive for your own growth and ultimately for those around you. Plus, when you truly demonstrate the authentic, the inauthentic has a way of exposing itself all on its own. Now, it is a longer road, but in the end a much less exhausting one... in my experience.

 

[Emerald518]

You are very welcome. I encourage you - as I would anyone in this case - not to let the issues of former leaders discourage you from trusting others in the future. Sure, be wise. Learn from those situations. Don't give away trust too freely or easily, but don't close yourself off from it either. That's how the enemy uses us and can ultimately turn us into the very thing that we escaped from. (I suspect that might be what happened to the leaders in your situations). It probably won't be easy at first, that's ok, just don't close yourself off to it.

As long as we are on the topic, here's one thing that I learned and have been doing myself and in ministry that has helped me tremendously. It is very easy as we grow and experience things like this to become enamored with the idea of calling out "false" or "wrong" things. While there certainly is a time and a place for that. What I've found is more productive and healing is not to focus on what others are doing wrong, but to focus on demonstrating what is right. To be the example of the authentic vs pointing out the inauthentic. It is much more productive for your own growth and ultimately for those around you. Plus, when you truly demonstrate the authentic, the inauthentic has a way of exposing itself all on its own. Now, it is a longer road, but in the end a much less exhausting one... in my experience.

I totally agree with you on that last part...it may be longer, but it's also more biblical and more in line with the fruits of the spirit...patience, gentleness, kindness, self-control, etc. And it doesn't have to be the longer road...God could shorten that process if He needed to.

 

[Emerald518]

Yes, Tofpher, I concur with this advice. Thank you for writing such a great explanation. Earlier I had started a draft to say the letter was too long and opened more exposure than she needed but I did not have the time to put the thought into it that you did so I abandoned my post. Thank you for posting your GREAT advice.

I've also been in a place 2x where church "leaders" perpetrated some devastating abuse. Generally confronting someone who is inclined to abuse just doesn't go well. I confronted one (also a family member) who dug in his heels and punched back 2x as hard. When an abuser has Scriptures twisted up in their heads they just aren't thinking straight - and the feel justified in their thinking!

The family member I confronted (as gently and caringly as I could possibly do, after many hours put into drafting a simple message) responded very harshly because he felt that if he was angry he wasn't sinning, per (Eph 4:26 Be angry and sin not...) He is a "ruling elder" in a large denomination and has served with other elders for many years. His anger only increased at me because he felt I was censuring his speech (when I wanted him to stop his abuse and treat me with civility). So now we have a total breach in the family and I'm not sure I can muster up a desire to attend our next family reunion, even though my mom has a form of cancer so there likely won't be too many more.

The 2nd time I received spiritual abuse was from a beloved pastor who decided I was an inconvenient member of his congregation, I guess. I had some battle scars that couldn't be nicely hidden in fine Sunday clothes (somewhat literally, lol), and he attacked me personally so I would resign instead of continue attending his church with that visible sign of my scars. I wrote a letter to him which I haven't sent. Some day I might. Who knows. While I do not have closure in this case, perhaps not having closure from him is more peaceful than engaging him.

I am definitely going to take the advice you quoted above and revise some things in the letter. Now that the initial anger is out and I've had my "explosion" as I'll call it, the part about accusing her of tearing up her old church and the whole thing with my job and school is bordering on accusatory and that could cause more damage, not to mention the mistake with school was my mistake and my choice that I made even though I have very little doubt that the things she told me as well as things told to me in the second church did very heavily influence me into making that choice....it's unnecessary info and not only childish but also unrighteous for me to blame another person for the choices that I made...so those are going to out...I'll step back and let God do the convicting on the church thing because while I'm sure that that's what happened knowing the type of person that she is, that was before my time and I'm not entirely sure. I don't want to commit the same sins that she is and don't want to cross into hypocrisy and stoop to her level...I want to be the example of Christ that God would want me to be in this situation.

 

[Endeavourer]

You are very welcome. I encourage you - as I would anyone in this case - not to let the issues of former leaders discourage you from trusting others in the future. Sure, be wise. Learn from those situations. Don't give away trust too freely or easily, but don't close yourself off from it either. That's how the enemy uses us and can ultimately turn us into the very thing that we escaped from. (I suspect that might be what happened to the leaders in your situations). It probably won't be easy at first, that's ok, just don't close yourself off to it.

As long as we are on the topic, here's one thing that I learned and have been doing myself and in ministry that has helped me tremendously. It is very easy as we grow and experience things like this to become enamored with the idea of calling out "false" or "wrong" things. While there certainly is a time and a place for that. What I've found is more productive and healing is not to focus on what others are doing wrong, but to focus on demonstrating what is right. To be the example of the authentic vs pointing out the inauthentic. It is much more productive for your own growth and ultimately for those around you. Plus, when you truly demonstrate the authentic, the inauthentic has a way of exposing itself all on its own. Now, it is a longer road, but in the end a much less exhausting one... in my experience.

Thank you for your reply.

What I learned from these two experiences is to not submit my spiritual conscience to any type of "leader", but to serve God more than man.

If it weren't for my children, I would have exited the church scene altogether and just worshiped at home Sundays on my own, with my own studies. As much as that's the path I wanted to go, God did not allow that because I couldn't put my own comfort above the ministering that my children need. My oldest son is involved in an inner city church plant, so I've been attending there, and trying to encourage my other children to join us as well. I will likely never be a formal member of another church as a consequence of my experience.

It's QUITE a different path for me, as previously I attended formal services in nice suburbs where women were allowed no participation in any vote. My household's only vote was with my offerings, since I didn't have a male in the household. It had a high emphasis on reverence. The culture in my church was that people were not outspoken about the work the Lord was doing in their hearts. Now I see that having no participatory interaction in worship stunts your spiritual growth.

My new environment is more akin to a mission field. I spent Saturday canvassing our most crime ridden inner city blocks (where the church is located) to invite 400+ homes to our first church service in that location which included a free mother's day breakfast. We walked up with boldness to drug houses where all the dealers were hanging out on the porch and cars sped past with quick stops to make the deal. One of the dealers actually came, PTL, although he was under some influence. We sent some breakfast and bacon home to the others who had promised to come if we had bacon, but then didn't show up. I also spent a good part of the week trying to figure out how to make enough breakfast for some 450 households without any RSVP system. Yikes. Would 4 show up, or 400?

As I tended to the visitors, I noticed they were taking large plates of food..more than they could eat. Then it made sense when many of them took out plastic grocery bags from their purses to take the extras home. This struck my heart. Every time I saw this happening I told them to go get another big plate of food to take home as well. Clearly they needed my leftovers more than I did.

As long as this church is content to allow me to participate with their ministry without a formal membership, this is where I feel led to stay. Ironically, it's the same denomination that my family member is a ruling elder in, so wild horses won't drag me to formally join. I'd rather exit.

The relevance to the OP with all of this story is the Lord SHOVED me out of the door to the tidy, cozy, malnourished environment I was in. It seems he has done that with her as well. Once you can leave the old behind, the future is really exciting.

2 Cor 1: 3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort; 4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God. 5 For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ. 6 And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation.

 

[Emerald518]

Thank you for your reply.

What I learned from these two experiences is to not submit my spiritual conscience to any type of "leader", but to serve God more than man.

If it weren't for my children, I would have exited the church scene altogether and just worshiped at home Sundays on my own, with my own studies. As much as that's the path I wanted to go, God did not allow that because I couldn't put my own comfort above the ministering that my children need. My oldest son is involved in an inner city church plant, so I've been attending there, and trying to encourage my other children to join us as well. I will likely never be a formal member of another church as a consequence of my experience.

It's QUITE a different path for me, as previously I attended formal services in nice suburbs where women were allowed no participation in any vote. My household's only vote was with my offerings, since I didn't have a male in the household. It had a high emphasis on reverence. The culture in my church was that people were not outspoken about the work the Lord was doing in their hearts. Now I see that having no participatory interaction in worship stunts your spiritual growth.

My new environment is more akin to a mission field. I spent Saturday canvassing our most crime ridden inner city blocks (where the church is located) to invite 400+ homes to our first church service in that location which included a free mother's day breakfast. We walked up with boldness to drug houses where all the dealers were hanging out on the porch and cars sped past with quick stops to make the deal. One of the dealers actually came, PTL, although he was under some influence. We sent some breakfast and bacon home to the others who had promised to come if we had bacon, but then didn't show up. I also spent a good part of the week trying to figure out how to make enough breakfast for some 450 households without any RSVP system. Yikes. Would 4 show up, or 400?

As I tended to the visitors, I noticed they were taking large plates of food..more than they could eat. Then it made sense when many of them took out plastic grocery bags from their purses to take the extras home. This struck my heart. Every time I saw this happening I told them to go get another big plate of food to take home as well. Clearly they needed my leftovers more than I did.

As long as this church is content to allow me to participate with their ministry without a formal membership, this is where I feel led to stay. Ironically, it's the same denomination that my family member is a ruling elder in, so wild horses won't drag me to formally join. I'd rather exit.

The relevance to the OP with all of this story is the Lord SHOVED me out of the door to the tidy, cozy, malnourished environment I was in. It seems he has done that with her as well. Once you can leave the old behind, the future is really exciting.

2 Cor 1: 3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort; 4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God. 5 For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ. 6 And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation.

Hearing about a church where women are not permitted to serve in any kind of ministerial setting is indeed very odd, because while my church doesn't allow women to be deacons or in any kind of pastoral role, we have female ushers, Sunday school teachers, a woman who heads our ministry for people with disabilities and in our college aged ministry, they allow female interns who are interns with the church through the group (basically interns who are your peers in the group, I couldn't find the appropriate wording) to preach on whatever topics we're currently talking about. Was your former church very legalistic?

 

[topher694]

My new environment is more akin to a mission field. I spent Saturday canvassing our most crime ridden inner city blocks (where the church is located) to invite 400+ homes to our first church service in that location which included a free mother's day breakfast. We walked up with boldness to drug houses where all the dealers were hanging out on the porch and cars sped past with quick stops to make the deal. One of the dealers actually came, PTL, although he was under some influence. We sent some breakfast and bacon home to the others who had promised to come if we had bacon, but then didn't show up. I also spent a good part of the week trying to figure out how to make enough breakfast for some 450 households without any RSVP system. Yikes. Would 4 show up, or 400?

As I tended to the visitors, I noticed they were taking large plates of food..more than they could eat. Then it made sense when many of them took out plastic grocery bags from their purses to take the extras home. This struck my heart. Every time I saw this happening I told them to go get another big plate of food to take home as well. Clearly they needed my leftovers more than I did.

That's really cool! (And amen to the RSVP thing... lol)

 

[Endeavourer]

Was your former church very legalistic?

To someone not raised in it, maybe, but it didn't feel legalistic to me. Personal liberty/freedom was highly respected as long as there was not a visible mark against the testimony of the church. If there was, one had to stand up for a comment of censure. This included unwed pregnancies, publicly living together before marriage, convictions of crimes, etc. Other than the censure situation (which I also hated), the church actually was a really nice place to worship and fellowship. There are a lot of humble believers in it.

One area that I ignored was their gender role teaching - I figured no place was perfect and as long as I loved most everything else about the church's teaching, I wouldn't let that bother me.

In retrospect I had absorbed more of it than I realized and it has caused some really deep scars in my life, particularly as I tried to apply that teaching to a marriage against an abuser. I feel my marriage to my ex husband might have been salvageable if I had imposed reality based consequences on his behavior instead of thinking it was my lot to suffer under his abuse per that Peter passage to wives that has been so twisted up. If I had shown him the door until he was willing to treat me nicely instead of try to take his abuse even sweeter next time (gag!!), it probably would have worked, serving as a deterrent against such behavior in the future.

I left the church because I felt convicted to stop wearing hats to church (I felt their doctrine about it was all wrong and could no longer go along with that visible statement on the top of my head.) The pastor threatened to censure me under the 4th commandment (honor your father and your mother..which he interpolated to include all of my authorities, including my pastor - i.e. him). Since even with the censure I wouldn't have been able to change, it would have led to a public excommunication process. I didn't feel up to all of that so I resigned after his brutal letter.

 

[Emerald518]

To someone not raised in it, maybe, but it didn't feel legalistic to me. Personal liberty/freedom was highly respected as long as there was not a visible mark against the testimony of the church. If there was, one had to stand up for a comment of censure. This included unwed pregnancies, publicly living together before marriage, convictions of crimes, etc. Other than the censure situation (which I also hated), the church actually was a really nice place to worship and fellowship. There are a lot of humble believers in it.

One area that I ignored was their gender role teaching - I figured no place was perfect and as long as I loved most everything else about the church's teaching, I wouldn't let that bother me.

In retrospect I had absorbed more of it than I realized and it has caused some really deep scars in my life, particularly as I tried to apply that teaching to a marriage against an abuser. I feel my marriage to my ex husband might have been salvageable if I had imposed reality based consequences on his behavior instead of thinking it was my lot to suffer under his abuse per that Peter passage to wives that has been so twisted up. If I had shown him the door until he was willing to treat me nicely instead of try to take his abuse even sweeter next time (gag!!), it probably would have worked, serving as a deterrent against such behavior in the future.

I left the church because I felt convicted to stop wearing hats to church (I felt their doctrine about it was all wrong and could no longer go along with that visible statement on the top of my head.) The pastor threatened to censure me under the 4th commandment (honor your father and your mother..which he interpolated to include all of my authorities, including my pastor - i.e. him). Since even with the censure I wouldn't have been able to change, it would have led to a public excommunication process. I didn't feel up to all of that so I resigned after his brutal letter.

Wow. I'm glad you did get out. I agree that there will always be some things about any church, even the ones that do their absolute best to follow what scripture teaches, that will be unbiblical. Our world is far from perfect and while we can get 99.9999xinfinity% here on earth, we will never reach 100% until we get to Heaven, and God knows that, which is why He gave us His grace. He knows that even if we were at 99.99% on our own, we still couldn't get into Heaven because in order to get to Heaven, we need to be at 100%...and grace allows us to be at 100% because Jesus was at 100%. That being said, even if a church has one thing that is spiritually abusive, it's still a spiritually abusive church...at little leaven leavens the whole lump. I'm glad that you got out, as I suspect that in time, the pastor who told those things to you will probably end up bringing that church down.

In just reading your post again, the part about there not being a mark against the church strikes me as very odd...again I don't know how your church was because I most likely was never involved with it, but to me, that seems like it's bordering on being expected to submit to the church and your pastor as the ultimate authority rather than God being the ultimate authority. It has me thinking about the passage in Galatians where Paul rebukes the Galatians for doing things to try and please man rather than God...

 

[topher694]

To someone not raised in it, maybe, but it didn't feel legalistic to me. Personal liberty/freedom was highly respected as long as there was not a visible mark against the testimony of the church. If there was, one had to stand up for a comment of censure. This included unwed pregnancies, publicly living together before marriage, convictions of crimes, etc. Other than the censure situation (which I also hated), the church actually was a really nice place to worship and fellowship. There are a lot of humble believers in it.

In just reading your post again, the part about there not being a mark against the church strikes me as very odd...again I don't know how your church was because I most likely was never involved with it, but to me, that seems like it's bordering on being expected to submit to the church and your pastor as the ultimate authority rather than God being the ultimate authority. It has me thinking about the passage in Galatians where Paul rebukes the Galatians for doing things to try and please man rather than God...

My approach to these types of things is exactly the opposite. It is a corporate variation of what I said before about demonstrating the authentic. I know people that come to church are going to come with issues, make mistakes along the way, we all do. So rather than those things being a mark against the church, I see encouraging and empowering people to overcome their issues and end up more like Christ through them as a mark FOR our church.

 

[Endeavourer]

Was your former church very legalistic?

In thinking about it some more, we probably had quite a bit in common with some Pentacostal denominations that are legalistic.

Skirts, long hair, headship teaching... that kind of stuff. I was raised in all of that so it didn't feel burdensome to me. As my adult life progressed, I felt less convicted to wear skirts, although I wouldn't wear pants inside a church. My kids weren't allowed to wear jeans to any church function.

That's an area the Lord changed, too....in my new church if I wear my Sunday dresses I feel that I'm coming with a "I'm better than you" look. It took several weeks of convictions in my heart to dress down before I finally just took the leap to wear a pair of jeans to church. Even dress pants are not neighborly when our congregation has kids coming in flood water sweat pants that have holes on both the back and front of the knee.

 

[Emerald518]

In thinking about it some more, we probably had quite a bit in common with some Pentacostal denominations that are legalistic.

Skirts, long hair, headship teaching... that kind of stuff. I was raised in all of that so it didn't feel burdensome to me. As my adult life progressed, I felt less convicted to wear skirts, although I wouldn't wear pants inside a church. My kids weren't allowed to wear jeans to any church function.

That's an area the Lord changed, too....in my new church if I wear my Sunday dresses I feel that I'm coming with a "I'm better than you" look. It took several weeks of convictions in my heart to dress down before I finally just took the leap to wear a pair of jeans to church. Even dress pants are not neighborly when our congregation has kids coming in flood water sweat pants that have holes on both the back and front of the knee.

Maybe not so much Pentecostal, but more like Independent Fundamental Baptist.

 

[Kenny'sID]

You absolutely need to send her that letter, they simply are NOT fit to do what they're doing, and to think, they most likely consider themselves good people when in reality, they are clueless.

So sorry to hear that happened to you and once again, you need to send that to her, do it for yourself, you deserve it...and so does she.

 

[Endeavourer]

This is how I used to dress to go to church, lol, although I tended towards the more modest of this type of hat: Women Church Suits, Hats, Dresses and Plus Size Suits. www.ChampagneChurchSuits.com Or Call Sales @ (866) 866-8282 | Champagne Elite Suits | Women church suits, Church suits, Suits

Now I dress in my most casual, least presumptuous clothes possible. I want to look like the people I'm serving so they feel comfortable and accepted.

 

[Endeavourer]

Maybe not so much Pentecostal, but more like Independent Fundamental Baptist.

Ah, OK. I didn't realize IFBs had female preachers. Well, my background is akin to IFB, so we have something in common.

I hope we were helpful with your letter situation. More than anything I'm worried that you're exposing your heart to more abuse. Your cousin doesn't care about you, and if you turn the heat up on her she'll just strike back harder at you (possibly involving other people) because she not only doesn't care about you, she doesn't care about the other people either.

When you deal with an abuser and assume they have a heart like yours that can be tender and actually care, you are making a big miscalculation. It can't and they don't.