A journey to liberal Christianity

[kern]

Hi all,

I'm interested in hearing stories of people who moved into liberal Christianity, and especially why they are Christian rather than agnostic or some other religion.

I participated in this forum around 10 years ago as a Catholic; at that time in my life I tried to be as orthodox a Catholic as I could (although there were certain aspects of Catholic teaching that I never accepted). But now I feel differently. It's unusual because I still enjoy Catholic services and praying the Divine Office but I'm not sure I believe in any of it any more. And also, I'm at the point where I'm just not sure I can continue to support the Catholic Church even as an unbeliever (for various reasons).

I've looked into the Episcopal Church because it is more socially and politically liberal (at least some churches) while preserving elements of the fixed liturgy of Catholicism. Also my aunt was an Episcopal priest. But at the same time I wonder if I even believe enough to go to Episcopal services.

I do think that humans have an innate need for some sort of spiritual activity -- it doesn't seem to me that the almost universal existence of religion or spirituality in human history can be explained just by "they were scared of death" or "humans are naturally gullible" or "they just didn't know science yet."

But I do think that modern science and ethics have undermined (for me) a lot of what seems essential to Christianity. I can't accept that Christianity is the one true faith when tens of billions of humans have lived and died without ever hearing about Christianity. Miracles and the effectiveness of prayer just don't seem to have survived the modern scientific view of the world. I haven't seen any explanation that seemed right to me for why the violent, cruel parts of the Bible (particularly the OT) are still relevant to us.

At the same time, I still feel like there's something in Christianity that appeals to my spiritual side. But it's hard to say why I enjoy a Catholic Mass or praying the daily office when I can't really say if I believe anything in it.

I'm not really interested in debating the fine points of all of this (like whether you personally believe miracles exist), I'm just wondering about people who have shed the orthodoxy but retained some elements of Christian faith. Why Christianity?

What I intend to do is look around and see if I can find a fairly liberal Episcopal Church and see how that works for me. But I sympathize with a post I read earlier in here who said you feel caught between three types of people: 1) true believers who insist on orthodoxy, literal bible, etc., 2) people who go to church for social or cultural reasons but don't really know what they believe, and 3) agnostics/atheists who completely reject (and insult) all religion and spirituality. I know there are people who aren't in these 3 categories but it seems hard to find them sometimes.

Anyway, I'm interested in hearing about why you've held on to Christianity, and any books, writers, blogs, etc. that were influential on you.

 

[SAT]

Hi all,

I'm interested in hearing stories of people who moved into liberal Christianity, and especially why they are Christian rather than agnostic or some other religion.

I participated in this forum around 10 years ago as a Catholic; at that time in my life I tried to be as orthodox a Catholic as I could (although there were certain aspects of Catholic teaching that I never accepted). But now I feel differently. It's unusual because I still enjoy Catholic services and praying the Divine Office but I'm not sure I believe in any of it any more. And also, I'm at the point where I'm just not sure I can continue to support the Catholic Church even as an unbeliever (for various reasons).

I've looked into the Episcopal Church because it is more socially and politically liberal (at least some churches) while preserving elements of the fixed liturgy of Catholicism. Also my aunt was an Episcopal priest. But at the same time I wonder if I even believe enough to go to Episcopal services.

I do think that humans have an innate need for some sort of spiritual activity -- it doesn't seem to me that the almost universal existence of religion or spirituality in human history can be explained just by "they were scared of death" or "humans are naturally gullible" or "they just didn't know science yet."

But I do think that modern science and ethics have undermined (for me) a lot of what seems essential to Christianity. I can't accept that Christianity is the one true faith when tens of billions of humans have lived and died without ever hearing about Christianity. Miracles and the effectiveness of prayer just don't seem to have survived the modern scientific view of the world. I haven't seen any explanation that seemed right to me for why the violent, cruel parts of the Bible (particularly the OT) are still relevant to us.

At the same time, I still feel like there's something in Christianity that appeals to my spiritual side. But it's hard to say why I enjoy a Catholic Mass or praying the daily office when I can't really say if I believe anything in it.

I'm not really interested in debating the fine points of all of this (like whether you personally believe miracles exist), I'm just wondering about people who have shed the orthodoxy but retained some elements of Christian faith. Why Christianity?

What I intend to do is look around and see if I can find a fairly liberal Episcopal Church and see how that works for me. But I sympathize with a post I read earlier in here who said you feel caught between three types of people: 1) true believers who insist on orthodoxy, literal bible, etc., 2) people who go to church for social or cultural reasons but don't really know what they believe, and 3) agnostics/atheists who completely reject (and insult) all religion and spirituality. I know there are people who aren't in these 3 categories but it seems hard to find them sometimes.

Anyway, I'm interested in hearing about why you've held on to Christianity, and any books, writers, blogs, etc. that were influential on you.

Hello I am one of your nightmare people lol. Bible believing full on Christian.

1st media that may help you- try looking at some of Tim Keller Vidios they would help you I think, he talks at/to educated people, that sounds awful doesn't it I will try to rephrase that lol. He is good at answering some of the questions you mentioned above, to people who are willing to listen with an open mind. I just believe, so am not educated I just believe. There is a video where he is questioned by unbelieving UV students, if you can't find it just drop a comment here and I will find the link to it for you.

I was once I catholic (when young) I now go to any church that stands by the bible but I believe for no particular reason I should go to my closest church, I would not go to a liberal church as I may as well just watch the god channel (godless channel). Brother you have come to a crossroads you need to decide which direction to take, me if I was to advise you I would say try to resolve the reasons why you doubt the bible, if you can’t I would advise a clean break, you have come from a very solid church irrespective what people say about it, at least it is not blown about in the wind just taking up the latest fad, or human rights issue as though that was more important than salvation. I don’t think you would have it in you to bend and twist the bible in the way you will need to.

 

[hedrick]

I grew up in the PCUSA, so I've never been anything else. I'm also a "Bible believing full on Christian." However I look at the Bible to see just what kind of thing it is. And it's pretty clearly not a single account written by God. Rather, it's an account written over several hundred years by many people with differing understandings, of God's work with Israel, and finally Jesus. Trying to force-fit it into a single consistent account has never seemed possible or even sane to me.

My current church is made up mostly of people from a similar background, but there are also a substantial number of people from more conservative backgrounds, mostly Catholic. They seem to have changed mostly because they couldn't live with the legalism of a conservative tradition. But my impression is that it's fairly unusual to move between branches of Christianity. Mostly when people realize that the conservative view isn't plausible, they're not interested in hearing a version that fits what the Bible actually is. They just leave the faith. Similarly, people from the liberal tradition who find something missing mostly leave the faith, though a few do move to conservative churches, just as a few in our church come from more conservative backgrounds.

We get lots of accounts of conversion here. But sociologists who have looked at the data will tell you that this is unusual. The main cause of people becoming liberal used to be upward social mobility, often in the form of marrying upwards. However for the last few decades this has large stopped, as the American dream has slowly receded. So at this point relative changes are mostly due to differences in birth rate and immigration.

There's no question that pre-modern people saw miracles all over the place, and we simply can't. To some extent this is a matter of perspective. Many things in life are miracles, even though they are also subject to scientific explanation. But they were also credulous about reports of unusual events, and we are now more careful. Does that mean that no miracles occur? I'm not so sure. It certainly means that they don't happen very often. But I'm inclined to think a literal resurrection did actually happen, and I suspect that there are also occasional miracles today. I'm not sure the Christian faith depends upon that. (There are plausible non-miraculous understandings of the Resurrection.) But still, I don't think the fact that pre-modern people saw them all over and we don't means that they never happen.

 

[XtianAgain]

Welcome Kern!

I grew up Catholic, was even an Altar Boy. Most of my family is still Catholic. Went through a phase when I was young of dabbling in what was known at the time as "Born Again Christian". Lost flavor for me quickly.

Grew into adulthood and first tried out New Age and Eastern Philosophies. After, dabbling around for years eventually became nonreligious. Throughout this time (and really my whole life) I was always very liberal minded. Never saw why homosexuals didn't deserve equal rights, thought people of color and the less fortunate deserved programs to enhance their lives, women deserved economic and social equality etc etc

After a major tragedy in a city I lived in I started praying again and looked to the Bible with fresh eyes. Seeing Jesus (who I always loved) as not just my Lord and Savior, but a leader for change in his time. I became more intrigued and searched for resources.

After reading people like Borg and Spong it dawned on me that Fundamentalism doesn't necessarily equal Christianity. You can believe in science and be a Christian. You can believe in LGBT rights and be a Christian. You can see the Bible in a nonliteral sense and be a Christian.

At the end of the day its what Jesus said...Love God with all your heart and treat others how you want to be treated.

 

[SAT]

Welcome Kern!

I grew up Catholic, was even an Altar Boy. Most of my family is still Catholic. Went through a phase when I was young of dabbling in what was known at the time as "Born Again Christian". Lost flavor for me quickly.

Yes that "born again is still alive and well.




Grew into adulthood and first tried out New Age and Eastern Philosophies. After, dabbling around for years eventually became nonreligious. Throughout this time (and really my whole life) I was always very liberal minded. Never saw why homosexuals didn't deserve equal rights, thought people of color and the less fortunate deserved programs to enhance their lives, women deserved economic and social equality etc etc


I am I guess what you would call a fundamentalist in that I believe the bible is the word of God, well as more a guide to salvation I guess. But that doesn't mean I don't think homosexuals shouldn't have the same rights as me, in other words you are not more moral than I because you don't take the Bible seriously and I do. Where we differ I guess is probably here-


-

You may say "we should love our homosexuals Brothers".

I would say "we should love our homosexuals Brothers".

They would say "if you love me you must also love my sin". (Not all)


You would say "we should love our homosexuals Brothers".

I would say Brother "I am concerned for your salvation because your actions are counter to biblical teaching".


I would say the difference between the two is love. I love him/her enough to become unpopular, but my measure of love is the bible, I could say your love is just helping him to eternal separation from God, because your measure of love is human rights. I understand that is an over simplification but I try to make the point that we are both trying to be moral and it would be incorrect to say that someone who follows the bible is somehow less than a human rights activist.

I would say and I do, that if you go down the line of saying well I just believe I just pick and choose what I believe, but I do believe in Jesus, then you have missed the point, you are just a Peter, denying Jesus because you are in different company.

You should remember that when you speak as you do, you are saying to an unbeliever, don't take the bible to seriously believe in me instead. I would respectfully suggest you no right, yes I am taking your right away! Because Christianity isn't about rights as we don't deserve any do we? Its about salvation and Christ’s shedding of blood for our sins. You see when you unpack liberalism you are just left with self that then needs no god, other than a god to indicate you are a moral person.





After a major tragedy in a city I lived in I started praying again and looked to the Bible with fresh eyes. Seeing Jesus (who I always loved) as not just my Lord and Savior, but a leader for change in his time. I became more intrigued and searched for resources.

Sorry about the tragedy, the only change Jesus wants is to save us, can I just tell you, in your country and mine to, many years ago slavery took place, this slaver was not the slaver that Paul spoke of, this was something much different! But those slaves had a belief in Christ that you and I would die for, yet many of their ancestors who benefited from the abolition of slavery (achieve human rights) now are non-believers their rights have given them their passport to hell! now I know that is a simplification, but I say to show that human rights is a poor substitute for a proper belief in God and his word.

I am so sorry if I am coming across judgmental, but I am just trying to show that you use nice words, that when unwrapped is no substitute for the bible.



After reading people like Borg and Spong it dawned on me that Fundamentalism doesn't necessarily equal Christianity. You can believe in science and be a Christian. You can believe in LGBT rights and be a Christian. You can see the Bible in a nonliteral sense and be a Christian.

Just read the bible don't look to the world for your answers.

At the end of the day its what Jesus said...Love God with all your heart and treat others how you want to be treated.

Hopefully someone would be prepared to love you enough to put the world to one side, and speak eternity to you not just the here and now.

Brother in Christ I have been very hard on you I know but I just tell you what is in my heart, because I was once like you and someone loved me into Christ’s arms.

I think I may have made some formatting errors here so sorry, can't seem to get it to put parts in italic's.

 

[Kurama]

Brother in Christ,

It is difficult in this contemporary era to truly uphold the Greatest Commandment when we are surrounded by those who insult, poison and degrade our faith. I am delighted that you are still interested in Catholic Mass...for I am banned from attending them.

The reason why I hold onto my Catholic faith is because of persecution. The state hates me, the Communist Party sees me as lower than dirt, I am harassed for being a ''deluded cultist''... I refuse to attend the state run Chinese Patriotic Association (of which the Party appoints its own bishops), and thus I am putting myself in so much trouble...

It is clear that the more persecuted we are, the more hated we are....the stronger our faith grows. You may cut our branches, but our roots will only grow stronger and deeper. I am proud to be part of the Body of Christ, I am proud to have Jesus Christ as my Head. I am not afraid of the Communist Party, for I know my Lord is greater than them!

And there are Christians across the world who are being killed for their faith! From the Copts to the North Koreans, millions are being persecuted for spreading love. In Syria, the al-Qaeda wing of the Opposition have already started their genocide against Christians (mainly because they are pro-Assad, since he's the only one who's going to defend them against the Islamists).

I will take this knowledge down to martyrdom...I have had enough of being a slave of the government, I have had enough of having my rights taken away! There is nothing better to die for than my faith, which embraces love and freedom!

I've wrote in depth about the persecution I face: http://www.christianforums.com/t7753972/

Please pray for us...pray for all those being persecuted in the name of Jesus. We come together with a loving and tolerant faith, to spread love across China, and the state kills us...one by one.

''You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.''
-Matthew 10:22

 

[SAT]

Brother in Christ,

It is difficult in this contemporary era to truly uphold the Greatest Commandment when we are surrounded by those who insult, poison and degrade our faith. I am delighted that you are still interested in Catholic Mass...for I am banned from attending them.

The reason why I hold onto my Catholic faith is because of persecution. The state hates me, the Communist Party sees me as lower than dirt, I am harassed for being a ''deluded cultist''... I refuse to attend the state run Chinese Patriotic Association (of which the Party appoints its own bishops), and thus I am putting myself in so much trouble...

It is clear that the more persecuted we are, the more hated we are....the stronger our faith grows. You may cut our branches, but our roots will only grow stronger and deeper. I am proud to be part of the Body of Christ, I am proud to have Jesus Christ as my Head. I am not afraid of the Communist Party, for I know my Lord is greater than them!

And there are Christians across the world who are being killed for their faith! From the Copts to the North Koreans, millions are being persecuted for spreading love. In Syria, the al-Qaeda wing of the Opposition have already started their genocide against Christians (mainly because they are pro-Assad, since he's the only one who's going to defend them against the Islamists).

I will take this knowledge down to martyrdom...I have had enough of being a slave of the government, I have had enough of having my rights taken away! There is nothing better to die for than my faith, which embraces love and freedom!

I've wrote in depth about the persecution I face: http://www.christianforums.com/t7753972/

Please pray for us...pray for all those being persecuted in the name of Jesus. We come together with a loving and tolerant faith, to spread love across China, and the state kills us...one by one.

''You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.''
-Matthew 10:22

Oh my dearest brother in Christ, you are such an inspiration to us, while we tear pages out of our bibles that offend our sensitivity you put them back in and glue them with persecution. I don't think I can say anymore than you have demonstrated. But brother we should all be persecuted for our beliefs as the bible makes clear. Do send details of what you have to endure so I may publish it on my Facebook page, do be careful that you don't put yourself in unnecessary danger. Your loving sister in Christ.

 

[Aaron_Walker]

I grew up Roman Catholic, got disillusioned in the Church in my teens, started attending an Anglican church in my early 20s which coincided with my discovery of Spong and other liberal authors. That initially led me to agnosticism, and a study of eastern religions, esp. Zen Buddhism. At one point I stopped seeing myself as a Christian.

I rediscovered Christianity several years ago as I began to read medieval Christian mystics. It began as a purely academic interest (or so I thought at the time), but I quickly found myself transformed by the writings of Meister Eckhart and Hildegard of Bingen. It was eventually among the Quakers that I found what I was looking for, in terms of fellowship, although I still attend Anglican services, too, when I can.

I wouldn't necessarily use the word "liberal" to describe my views. I think of "my" brand of Christianity as contemplative and progressive. However, I do feel myself at home among liberal Christians. For me it comes down to the spirit of tolerance and mutual respect rather than subscribing to a particular set of theologically liberal assumptions.

 

[PeaceBWithU]

When I was first saved, I went to a Baptist church and was conservative. I didn't question anything at all. Through the years, I read more about Christianity and realized that I couldn't answer people's questions, I had to assume a lot. I finally realized that, as a liberal Christian, I can answer the questions honestly and still be a good strong Christian.

 

[Gnarwhal]

Interesting read Kern, thanks for sharing.

I was raised a conservative, and brought up in the same Christian & Missionary Alliance church most of my life. My wife and I left that church when we were 22 and returned again when we were around 23, now we're 26 and we have since left again over a variety of issues about a year and a half ago.

After graduating high school I joined my church's college group which was a fantastic ministry that operated on campus, as time went on I became progressively more liberal, questioning a lot of things I had been raised to believe. About two years into my time there, my church gave the college group an ultimatum essentially saying they can either shed the sponsors (volunteer adults who supported the group financially, logistically and relationally) and move it back to the church grounds, or be cut off and wither without any support from the parent church. Well, within a few months the group which had been around for more than 20 years suddenly shriveled and died.

That kind of rattled my cage.

It was also something of a catalyst to get me to explore some of the other "streams" of the Christian faith. After a couple years of getting mixed up in the wrong things (like the Charismatic movement, IHOP) thanks to my old church, I finally broke away for good and started researching ancient Christianity. This led me to the Eastern Orthodox Church. While I love the Orthodox Church and desire to be a part of it, it's not a viable option right now if I want to sustain my marriage because my wife isn't comfortable with it (she's still an Evangelical and ultimately plans to stay that way). So as a result I've started looking into the Roman Catholic and Anglican churches... they've been compelling for the most part, and offer more hope in terms of a place to land for the both of us than the Orthodox Church did.

At times I wrestle with agnosticism because if I can't be an Orthodox Christian, Catholic or Anglican I don't see another option that satisfies me spiritually. My agnosticism isn't spiritual in regards to my beliefs in or views of God, but rather it's ecclesiastic. I believe the Nicene Creed expresses all the truths of the Christian faith, and that Holy Tradition is equally important to Holy Scripture, I believe in the Sacraments and that the Eucharist is more than just grape juice and nifty crackers, I believe it is the body and blood of Christ.

I often think of Pascal's Wager when I get to a low, but I also think about how I really do authentically, organically love God and want to be a part of everything he's doing. My faith is weak, but I try my best.

 

[XtianAgain]

Welcome Brother Cogent

 

[Gnarwhal]

Welcome Brother Cogent

Thanks bro!

I've actually been on CF and WWMC for quite a while, I've just had my username changed a few times (I was previously known as "Big Fudge" and "Bourne" before that and "Chilled Water" before that). I have a somewhat compulsive desire to change my name, but I'm pretty settled with this.

 

[XtianAgain]

LOL Well, whatever the case glad you're with us.

 

[Gnarwhal]

LOL Well, whatever the case glad you're with us.

Thanks man, always glad to venture into WWDC.