A hymn that actually worships Mary as God

[YeshuaFan]

Hello Swag! Thanks for the interesting though slightly cryptic question. My thought would be Matthew chapter 20, the parable of workers in the vineyard. The workers who were hired at nine, at noon and at five all received a denarius. God Bless You

Think that refers to having eternal life, but the Bhema seat of Christ where he judges us for eternal rewards, or loss of them!

 

[Swag365]

big difference between praying for someone who is alive vs praying to the dead. praying for your family is not the same as praying to Mary

All the saints are alive. And it makes no difference. When you pray for your family you are acting as a mediator.

 

[Mink61]

big difference between praying for someone who is alive vs praying to the dead. praying for your family is not the same as praying to Mary

First of all, Catholics in general don't believe that Mary is "dead". She's alive 'in Christ', as are many other Christians. Please note that I said "Christians" and not "Catholics".

Secondly, we don't pray "to" Mary; we pray either THROUGH her or WITH her, as we know that Mary prays, too!

Third of all, if you are aware of the visions and apparitions of Mary at Medjugorge--for over 20 years-- then you might get a better understanding of what Mary is all about.

Several quotes from Mary during her Visitations: (Mary's responses are italicized)

Wednesday, October 7, 1981
The visionaries: Is there, outside of Jesus, other intermediaries between God and man, and if so, what is their role?
"There is only one mediator between God and man, and it is Jesus Christ."

So, even Mary herself says this.

Saturday, September 4, 1982
"Jesus prefers that you address yourselves directly to Him rather than through an intermediary.

Friday, October 21, 1983
"The important thing is to pray to the Holy Spirit, so that He may descend on you. When one has Him, one has everything. People make a mistake when they turn only to the saints to request something."

At no time during these 20+ years of visions/apparitions did Mary EVER say, "Pray to ME."

MOST of the messages have to do with us praying, fasting, confessing, reading the Bible and going to church. But these 5 points aren't something that's to be done 'by rote'. So many people simply go to church out of habit, and sit in their pews, thinking about what fun thing they want to do once church is over. They're in a hurry to get out of the parking lot so they can 'get on with their lives'.

Mary has some important messages for us ALL, in case you want to read them.

Messages 1981-2022 (medjugorje.org)

 

[Cockcrow]

First of all, Catholics in general don't believe that Mary is "dead". She's alive 'in Christ', as are many other Christians. Please note that I said "Christians" and not "Catholics".

Secondly, we don't pray "to" Mary; we pray either THROUGH her or WITH her, as we know that Mary prays, too!

Third of all, if you are aware of the visions and apparitions of Mary at Medjugorge--for over 20 years-- then you might get a better understanding of what Mary is all about.

Several quotes from Mary during her Visitations: (Mary's responses are italicized)

Wednesday, October 7, 1981
The visionaries: Is there, outside of Jesus, other intermediaries between God and man, and if so, what is their role?
"There is only one mediator between God and man, and it is Jesus Christ."

So, even Mary herself says this.

Saturday, September 4, 1982
"Jesus prefers that you address yourselves directly to Him rather than through an intermediary.

Friday, October 21, 1983
"The important thing is to pray to the Holy Spirit, so that He may descend on you. When one has Him, one has everything. People make a mistake when they turn only to the saints to request something."

At no time during these 20+ years of visions/apparitions did Mary EVER say, "Pray to ME."

MOST of the messages have to do with us praying, fasting, confessing, reading the Bible and going to church. But these 5 points aren't something that's to be done 'by rote'. So many people simply go to church out of habit, and sit in their pews, thinking about what fun thing they want to do once church is over. They're in a hurry to get out of the parking lot so they can 'get on with their lives'.

Mary has some important messages for us ALL, in case you want to read them.

Messages 1981-2022 (medjugorje.org)

Luke 11:27-28

And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.

But he (Jesus) said, "Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it."

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Exodus 20:4-5 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;


NOWHERE in the BIBLE (Gods perfect word) does it even hint at praying through someone to get to God, praying for family members in Jesus name is not the same as praying to Mary, the saints, other dead human beings or statues of them to "intercede" there is no intercession needed, Jesus is our high priest, nobody else, no other name can or will save you.

also the Bible says women have no authority over men anyway, so why pray to a dead female Mary to "intercede" for God, when God is described as the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit is referred to as "he" also all the apostles were male, so why should anyone bow down to a statue of a female. It isn't biblical, Jesus refuted it, it is a pagan custom, nothing Jesus ever said supports Mary worship.

Also Jesus said before Abraham was, I am, Mary was born well after Abraham died so how can she be his real mother anyway if Jesus always existed and created all things? Mary was his earthly mother, nothing else, she wasn't divine, she wasn't God, and she shouldn't be worshipped.

 

[Oompa Loompa]

I saw this posted elsewhere in the site, my question is: Why is Mary being worshiped as God?

Discuss.

SALVE REGINA COELITUM Choralmelodien zum Helligen Gesänge, 1808


Hail, Holy Queen enthroned above, O Maria.
Hail, Queen of mercy and of love, O Maria.
Triumph, all ye cherubim, Sing with us, ye seraphim, Heaven and earth resound the hymn: Salve, salve, salve Regina!

Our life, our sweetness, here below, O Maria!
Our hope in sorrow and in woe, O Maria!
Triumph, all ye cherubim, Sing with us, ye seraphim, Heaven and earth resound the hymn: Salve, salve, salve Regina!
To thee we cry, poor sons of Eve, O Maria!
To thee we sigh, we mourn, we grieve, O Maria!
Triumph, all ye cherubim, Sing with us, ye seraphim, Heaven and earth resound the hymn: Salve, salve, salve Regina!
Turn then most gracious Advocate, O Maria!
Toward us thine eyes compassionate, O Maria!
Triumph, all ye cherubim, Sing with us, ye seraphim, Heaven and earth resound the hymn: Salve, salve, salve Regina!
The cause of joy to men below, O Maria!
The spring through which all graces flow, O Maria! Angels, all your praises bring, Earth and heaven, with us sing, All creation echoing: Salve, salve, salve Regina!

As I was reading this, all I could think about was Sister Act.

 

[lismore]

Think that refers to having eternal life, but the Bhema seat of Christ where he judges us for eternal rewards, or loss of them!

I have heard it thus interpreted, but I have heard a more literal interpretation too. In any event, it was posted in reply to another member's comment that Mary seems to be getting 'nada'. She's getting a denarius the same as us all, far more than nada. God Bless

 

[Mink61]

Luke 11:27-28

And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.

But he (Jesus) said, "Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it."

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Which is the same thing Mary said!

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Exodus 20:4-5 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Who said that Catholics are "bowing down" to Mary? If I "bow down" and get on my knees from my window, and happen to see a tall building, am I "bowing down" to that building?

Sometimes I get on my knees to pray in front of my coffee table...[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]! According to you, I MUST be "worshipping" and "bowing down" to my coffee table, simply because I'm in front of it! (where's the "eye roll" icon when I need it!)

At least, that's according to *your* "logic".

NOWHERE in the BIBLE (Gods perfect word) does it even hint at praying through someone to get to God, praying for family members in Jesus name is not the same as praying to Mary, the saints, other dead human beings or statues of them to "intercede" there is no intercession needed, Jesus is our high priest, nobody else, no other name can or will save you.

The 'gospel' according to *your* interpretation of a few scriptures while ignoring others.

also the Bible says women have no authority over men anyway, so why pray to a dead female Mary to "intercede" for God, when God is described as the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit is referred to as "he" also all the apostles were male, so why should anyone bow down to a statue of a female. It isn't biblical, Jesus refuted it, it is a pagan custom, nothing Jesus ever said supports Mary worship.

LO! Who was the FIRST person Jesus appeared to after his resurrection? MARY MAGEDELNE. From what I recall, she was NOT a man. The Apostles were all ticked off in their own arrogance to believe that Jesus would CERTAINLY have appeared to ONE OF THEM before appearing to a "lowly" woman.

They were wrong.

And, like I said before, we're not "bowing down" to a statue of Mary, the Mother of Jesus.

Also Jesus said before Abraham was, I am, Mary was born well after Abraham died so how can she be his real mother anyway if Jesus always existed and created all things?

As an 'alleged' Christian, are you seriously asking this? I'm serious...you sound more like an atheist than a Christian...

Mary was his earthly mother, nothing else, she wasn't divine, she wasn't God, and she shouldn't be worshipped.

Mary was his mother on earth. And while she's not "worshipped", she IS highly esteemed.

Instead of making all these unfounded assumptions, maybe you could try to actually learn about our faith.

Others before you have done it. Others with MORE staunch views than you have approached our faith with an OPEN MIND...

...and have become convinced.

 

[Mink61]

To whoever changed my reply to "Bless and do not curse", I have something to say...

By writing what I wrote, I wasn't "cursing"...I was calling upon OUR LORD to guide me in order to explain my position.

And this really goes to the crux of the matter...that SO MANY non-Catholics seem to believe that they have some "seer" ability to know what's in our hearts when we pray.

I pray in front of a statue of Mary. Well, I MUST be praying TO Mary. If I say (yeah, I already know you're going to censor this) "[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]", you automatically believe that I'm "cursing" to God.

Why HERE are we NOT allowed to say, "Oh, My God"?

Oh my God...I am SORRY for all my sins, and the sins of others...
Oh my God...Please GUIDE me...

Yeah. I expect to be banned any moment...

 

[prodromos]

To whoever changed my reply to "Bless and do not curse", I have something to say..

No one changed it. CF does it automatically if it sees a word in its list of curse words or what it considers as using the Lord's name in vain. Unfortunately it is an incredibly weak implementation that doesn't account for perfectly legitimate use such as when it forms part of a word that isn't a swear word.

 

[prodromos]

I saw this posted elsewhere in the site, my question is: Why is Mary being worshiped as God?

Discuss.

SALVE REGINA COELITUM Choralmelodien zum Helligen Gesänge, 1808


Hail, Holy Queen enthroned above, O Maria.
Hail, Queen of mercy and of love, O Maria.
Triumph, all ye cherubim, Sing with us, ye seraphim, Heaven and earth resound the hymn: Salve, salve, salve Regina!

Our life, our sweetness, here below, O Maria!
Our hope in sorrow and in woe, O Maria!
Triumph, all ye cherubim, Sing with us, ye seraphim, Heaven and earth resound the hymn: Salve, salve, salve Regina!
To thee we cry, poor sons of Eve, O Maria!
To thee we sigh, we mourn, we grieve, O Maria!
Triumph, all ye cherubim, Sing with us, ye seraphim, Heaven and earth resound the hymn: Salve, salve, salve Regina!
Turn then most gracious Advocate, O Maria!
Toward us thine eyes compassionate, O Maria!
Triumph, all ye cherubim, Sing with us, ye seraphim, Heaven and earth resound the hymn: Salve, salve, salve Regina!
The cause of joy to men below, O Maria!
The spring through which all graces flow, O Maria! Angels, all your praises bring, Earth and heaven, with us sing, All creation echoing: Salve, salve, salve Regina!

I suspect that many Protestants will see this as worship because they only have what they consider worship of God as their yardstick. In Eastern Orthodoxy, the above does not come close to our worship of God.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

As I was reading this, all I could think about was Sister Act.

You're not the only one. Which post was that again ...

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Was reminded of this discussion when Judges 5 was playing earlier today.

24 ¶ Blessed above women shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be, blessed shall she be above women in the tent.
25 He asked water, and she gave him milk; she brought forth butter in a lordly dish.
26 She put her hand to the nail, and her right hand to the workmen’s hammer; and with the hammer she smote Sisera, she smote off his head, when she had pierced and stricken through his temples.
27 At her feet he bowed, he fell, he lay down: at her feet he bowed, he fell: where he bowed, there he fell down dead.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

1 Thessalonians 4:17-18 didn't say "except Mary"

 

[Mink61]

No one changed it. CF does it automatically if it sees a word in its list of curse words or what it considers as using the Lord's name in vain. Unfortunately it is an incredibly weak implementation that doesn't account for perfectly legitimate use such as when it forms part of a word that isn't a swear word.

Thank you, prodromos. That helps...

 

[Jipsah]

All this conversation has proven is Mary doesn't need any special treatment. A simple "thank you Mary for giving birth to Jesus" is enough.

Like I said, standard Protestant "being the God Bearer isn't any big deal".

 

[Jipsah]

Same as saying fully human and fully God.

Ah, then you agree that Mary is the Mother of God.

No, doesn't work that way. Mary isn't divine

Nobody said, or even implied, that she was.

, the divinity already in Christ when Jesus was born human came from God.

Just as my hazel eyes came from my dad. And my mom is still my mother.

Mary gave birth, but God did not have sex with Mary.

So? Mary is still Jesus mother, and hence the God Bearer, the Mother of God. No evading that without embracing a Christological heresy.

 

[Jipsah]

big difference between praying for someone who is alive vs praying to the dead. praying for your family is not the same as praying to Mary

If Mary can hear prayers, what's the difference? Rev 5:8 ,akes a pretty good prima facie case for those in Heaven being able to hear prayers from those still on earth.

 

[Jipsah]

NOWHERE in the BIBLE (Gods perfect word) does it even hint at praying through someone to get to God

that would include your grandmother.

, praying for family members in Jesus name is not the same as praying to Mary, the saints, other dead human beings or statues

Nobody prays to statues, any more than you pray to the cross hanging in the front of your church, or the US flag next to the pulpit. Praying to the saints, including the Blessed Virgin, is precisely like asking your kinfolk to pray for you. "Praying" is asking, just more emphatic. "I pray thee put into yonder port for I fear a hurricane" (Longfellow), or "The plaintiff prays for special damages in the sum of $50,000", legal jargon for asking the court to award damages. "Mother of God, pray for us sinners" is asking Mark to pray to God for us, end of.

of them to "intercede" there is no intercession needed, Jesus is our high priest, nobody else, no other name can or will save you.

Then again, uyou'd best leave off having any of your brethren to pray for you because you can't have them intercede for you because they can't save you either.

also the Bible says women have no authority over men anyway, so why pray to a dead female

Or a live grandmother.

Also Jesus said before Abraham was, I am, Mary was born well after Abraham died so how can she be his real mother

You're now arguing that Jesus didn't have a mother at all.

Mary was his earthly mother, nothing else

That is quiote sufficient.

she wasn't divine, she wasn't God, and she shouldn't be worshipped.

And nobody said she was. Which, I believe, is where we started.

 

[Jipsah]

Well, cheers to you for taking each and every one of my words so literally. Now if we could only do the same for "This is my body". But I digress.

Oh, but He can't have meant what He said there!

 

[Mink61]

Was reminded of this discussion when Judges 5 was playing earlier today.

24 ¶ Blessed above women shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be, blessed shall she be above women in the tent.
25 He asked water, and she gave him milk; she brought forth butter in a lordly dish.
26 She put her hand to the nail, and her right hand to the workmen’s hammer; and with the hammer she smote Sisera, she smote off his head, when she had pierced and stricken through his temples.
27 At her feet he bowed, he fell, he lay down: at her feet he bowed, he fell: where he bowed, there he fell down dead.

Not following...

What does this passage have to do with the subject of this thread?