A hymn that actually worships Mary as God

[Gregory Thompson]

As suggested earlier, I have referred to the Catechism, see below.

964 Mary's role in the Church is inseparable from her union with Christ and flows directly from it. "This union of the mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ's virginal conception up to his death"; it is made manifest above all at the hour of his Passion:

Thus the Blessed Virgin advanced in her pilgrimage of faith, and faithfully persevered in her union with her Son unto the cross. There she stood, in keeping with the divine plan, enduring with her only begotten Son the intensity of his suffering, joining herself with his sacrifice in her mother's heart, and lovingly consenting to the immolation of this victim, born of her: to be given, by the same Christ Jesus dying on the cross, as a mother to his disciple, with these words: "Woman, behold your son."

This logic seems quite the stretch. But it explains a lot.

971 "All generations will call me blessed": "The Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship." The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of 'Mother of God,' to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs.... This very special devotion ... differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration." The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an "epitome of the whole Gospel," express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.

I'm not sure how a prayer of devotion to Mary is the epitome of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Also ..

969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfilment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation .... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.

Why is she given title of mediator? scripture says there is only one.

 

[Swag365]

I'm sorry, I don't know what you're talking about. Here is the passage in full if you are not familiar with it:

_________

Matthew 20 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard. 2 He agreed to pay them a denarius for the day and sent them into his vineyard.

3 “About nine in the morning he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. 4 He told them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.’ 5 So they went.

“He went out again about noon and about three in the afternoon and did the same thing. 6 About five in the afternoon he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, ‘Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?’

7 “‘Because no one has hired us,’ they answered.

“He said to them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard.’

8 “When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.’

9 “The workers who were hired about five in the afternoon came and each received a denarius. 10 So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11 When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12 ‘These who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’

13 “But he answered one of them, ‘I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? 14 Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15 Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’

16 “So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”

_____

I do not see your claim of a 'bonus' or '401k' in the passage. Kind Regards

Well, cheers to you for taking each and every one of my words so literally. Now if we could only do the same for "This is my body". But I digress.

Thank you posting the verses. There is nothing in those verses that teaches that all rewards in heaven are equal, if that was the point that you were attempting to make.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

That does not logically conclude.

Normally, I would say Jesus is 100% human and 100% divine, the extra words were based on the discussion.

 

[Swag365]

Why is she given title of mediator? scripture says there is only one.

Well again, let's say that you ask a friend to pray for you. Your friend prays to God for you. Does that not make your friend a mediator between God and you? Is your friend not interceding on your behalf? Does St. Paul intend to exclude your friend praying for you?

There are different ways of reading that verse in Timothy, if you research it a bit.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Well again, let's say that you ask a friend to pray to you. The friend prays to God for you. Does that not make your friend a mediator between God and you? There are different ways of reading that verse in Timothy, if you research it a bit.

That parable doesn't work because I wouldn't sing a song about such a friend.

 

[Swag365]

That parable doesn't work because I wouldn't sing a song about such a friend.

Sure, but you have thanked a friend for praying for you. Giving thanks or expressing appreciation is a form of praise.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Sure, but you have thanked a friend for praying for you. Giving thanks or expressing appreciation is a form of praise.

There are degrees of appreciation. My objection was going over the top in that regard.

 

[lismore]

Well, cheers to you for taking each and every one of my words so literally.

Perhaps you should post a key so that folks can know which of your words are literal and which are fanciful!

Thank you posting the verses. There is nothing in those verses that teaches that all rewards in heaven are equal, if that was the point that you were attempting to make.

To recap, you quoted my post, asked me a question and I gave you a bible passage which I believe provided the answer to your question. Jesus said the Kingdom of God is like a vineyard where everyone hired in whatever capacity received the same recompense, one denarius. You cannot show from that passage where some were paid more than others.

You have consistently ignored the passage and instead attempted to obfuscate. Therefore I think our discussion ends here. If you want the last word then have it. Peace and farewell

 

[Swag365]

Perhaps you should post a key so that folks can know which of your words are literal and which are fanciful!



To recap, you quoted my post, asked me a question and I gave you a bible passage which I believe provided the answer to your question. Jesus said the Kingdom of God is like a vineyard where everyone hired in whatever capacity received the same recompense, one denarius. You cannot show from that passage where some were paid more than others.

You have consistently ignored the passage and instead attempted to obfuscate. Therefore I think our discussion ends here. If you want the last word then have it. Peace and farewell

Well that was quite amusing. Quote one Bible verse, state "I win" and bow out of the discussion. Certainly a flawless victory if I have ever seen one.

The denarius is eternal life. You know plenty well that the parable appears in the context of a discussion concerning eternal life, and that the point of the parable is that those who accept Christ late in life will be given the same gift of eternal life as those who accept Christ early in life, or that gentile converts will receive the same gift of eternal life as Jews who accept our Lord. The parable is not meant to teach that each and every person will be offered and receive the same exact reward for the good works that he performs. But you already know that.

 

[Swag365]

There are degrees of appreciation. My objection was going over the top in that regard.

Well that’s your perspective. You think it’s over the top. Others think it’s totally fine. Hakuna matata.

But what you haven’t established is that it amounts to worship. I think the judge will uphold my objection.

Have a good one though.

 

[Jipsah]

Where else would she be enthroned? New Zealand?

Zzzzzzing!

 

[Jipsah]

Mary is the mother of Jesus' human body.

Now that is heresy. Lookee here:

"For this is the true faith that we believe and confess: That our Lord Jesus Christ, God’s Son, is both God and man. He is God, begotten before all worlds from the being of the Father, and he is man, born in the world from the being of his mother — existing fully as God, and fully as man with a rational soul and a human body; equal to the Father in divinity, subordinate to the Father in humanity.
Although he is God and man, he is not divided, but is one Christ.

See? You can't play the "His God part and His Human Part", that's the heresy of Nestorianism.

The Blessed Virgin isn't the mother of part of our Lord, because "He is not divided, but is one Christ." No wiggle room on that one. Yeah, that offends a lot of folks, but them's the breaks.

Is the song over the top? Yeah, I'd say so, but it isn't deifying the Blessed Virgin. You're just looking at it from the GP Protestant "Mary wasn't all that, she was just some kid who God chose to give birth to Christ, no big deal" viewpoint,which is pretty weird even from a Nestorian perspective. But if you see her as the God Bearer (we must't say Mother of God; the sound of rending garments is so irritating) then she's a considerably bigger deal, isn't she?

The reason for the forming of the Mother of God doctrine was because gnostics would commonly claim Jesus was not human, but a ghost.

The Gnostics were eat up with it in their own right, the "Mother of God doctrine" simply recognizes that if Jesus is God (and so say we all, right?) then Mary is the Mother of God, end of.

 

[Jipsah]

Jesus is 100% human because Mary, Jesus is 100% God because God.

Ergo 200%?

 

[Jipsah]

Mary was the mother of Jesus's humanity

Nope, doesn't work that way. No taking our Lord to bits and saying "this piece is human and this bit here divine".

"and in the end of it was a born again believer like the rest of us.

Not like the rest of us, no. None of us have borne God Himself within our bodies.

 

[Jipsah]

"Bowing down to"

Sorry, but that tidbit of cultural chauvinism always annoys me. In my culture (one of 'em, anyway) we "bow down" to almost everyone simply as a matter of respect. To not do so would have you looked on as an ill-mannered lout. How much more so to one incalculably more important than ourselves?

but yeah, totally not "worshipping" Mary

I'm sure that you'd think the formal bow my folks make to their grandparents constitute "worship" as well. We just consider it an appropriate form of respect.

 

[Cockcrow]

there is one mediator between God and man and that is Jesus Christ, he is our high priest, nobody else. No pope, saint, or Mary.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

None of us have borne God Himself within our bodies.

All this conversation has proven is Mary doesn't need any special treatment.

A simple "thank you Mary for giving birth to Jesus" is enough.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Ergo 200%?

Same as saying fully human and fully God.

Nope, doesn't work that way. No taking our Lord to bits and saying "this piece is human and this bit here divine".

No, doesn't work that way. Mary isn't divine, the divinity already in Christ when Jesus was born human came from God. Mary gave birth, but God did not have sex with Mary.

 

[Swag365]

there is one mediator between God and man and that is Jesus Christ, he is our high priest, nobody else. No pope, saint, or Mary.

Do you pray for any of your loved ones or friends? That makes you a mediator pal. You are misreading the verse, but if you research it and understand the context, I'm sure you'll figure it out.

 

[Cockcrow]

Do you pray for any of your loved ones or friends? That makes you a mediator pal. You are misreading the verse, but if you research it and understand the context, I'm sure you'll figure it out.

big difference between praying for someone who is alive vs praying to the dead. praying for your family is not the same as praying to Mary