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A Good Thing?

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PurpletheHeathen

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I thought this site was interesting, maybe even good and refreshing, except it's rather slow. I wondered what all of you thought, both Christians and non. Do Christian have any moral obligation to apologise? If so why, if not, why not.

http://www.christiansconfess.com/

Wasn't completely sure where to post this, hope this is cool.
 

4ng3l0fd34th

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Wow, I think that's a really great idea actually. Atheists in America know how it is to almost constantly be bombarded by the Christian "agenda" and it's nice to see some Christians doing the Christ-like thing & apologizing to people they may have (and probably did) hurt.
 
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Beanieboy

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Wow.

Are Christians obligated? I suppose that is a bit like asking anyone if they are obligated to apologizing to anyone about anything, really. A Christian once claimed that they only had to forgive those who asked for forgiveness. Those who did not did not have to be forgiven, as God does not forgive those who do not repent.

I asked, then, why Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do," when no one was apologizing.

Here is my reaction, and I encourage others to express your reaction as well:

Because someone seemed to not only take responsibility for what nonChristians often feel from Christians, but also realize it, and say it so succinctly, I saw the humility of those who came to Christ, if not Christ himself, in their words.

Example:
Here's the thing, it's pretty clear that Jesus came to bring hope, healing and freedom and we, the church, his followers have sucked all the fun out of that. We've taken the hope out of hope and continued wounding the wounded and piled chains on slaves. I am so sorry.

As a gay person, I have experienced callousness in the time of AIDS if not direct condemnation, or told that "those who die of it are asking for it." They have not mourned the loss of my friends, but spit on their deaths. As a former Christian who was really torn about what the bible "clearly says", or so I once believed, I thought myself not only unloveable by God, but hated by him. When one realizes that this "gay phase" is no phase at all, that's a really hard burden to bear. Having heard people claim that I was going to hell, rather than ever offering salvation, I saw other gay people, who were not really that close to God, reject it completely, thinking the idea one of selfish hatred, and self delusion that the believer is better than the "sinner." Because my mom, in trying to get deeper in the Word outside of Sunday would turn to things like the 700 Club, I watched the show purposely show a distorted image of gay people, fill watchers minds with false "facts", or claim that I was the enemy trying to bring down family, the country, and God himself.

In reading this, I feel like I don't have to keep explaining what that was like, but rather, the poster understands what that must have been like, and how they even admit their part in it. They have seen how what Jesus taught is often overpowered with the methods of the Pharisees today.

And in simply acknowledging that, understanding how they caused harm, or the harm that was caused, I don't feel the need to grant forgiveness, because that has already been granted. I feel hope. I feel healing, and am thankful.
 
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PurpletheHeathen

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Most of the responces from non-christians at the site were like yours Beanieboy. This does seem to have the potencial to be very healing, which I'd love to see. I'm not a Chrisitan, and I'm not connected with the site I just found it touching.
 
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keith99

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Having heard people claim that I was going to hell, rather than ever offering salvation, I saw other gay people, who were not really that close to God, reject it completely, thinking the idea one of selfish hatred, and self delusion that the believer is better than the "sinner."

Over the weekend I watched the movie Zulu. It is about the stand at Rourkes Drift in Natal. The condemnation that yuo were going to Hell reminds me of a scene in that film where the minister who was there was leaving and screaming out that all the soldiers there were going to die and go straight to Hell.

Problem is most of them did not die. Instead they carved out a place in History and 11 of them received the Victoria Cross (highest award in hte British Military).

I have a feeling those who blindly and with a broad brushcondemn homosexuals are about as accurate as that preacher.
 
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katautumn

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Wow. I think this one is my favorite, so far:

I am sorry we have shared more about what we're against than what we're for.

It's a shame that some Christians come across as being so miserable. They spend so much time and energy protesting against the things they view as beneath them in moral integrity and dictating how other people should live rather than trying to amplify the aspects of life we all share. It's no wonder there is so much division.
 
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Beanieboy

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Wow. I think this one is my favorite, so far:
It's a shame that some Christians come across as being so miserable. They spend so much time and energy protesting against the things they view as beneath them in moral integrity and dictating how other people should live rather than trying to amplify the aspects of life we all share. It's no wonder there is so much division.

A woman started talking to me once in the Public Library as we looked through DVD rentals once. She told me that it was so hard to be Christian, and that the world was such a terrible place.

I told her that she should be greatful to live in the US, where most people celebrate Easter and Christmas, and there is a church on every corner. It's not a Muslim State where it isn't allowed, or even persecuted like in other countries.

But the thing that I think turns so many people off are those Christians that claim to be happy, to have a joy overflowing, but can see none of the good in the world. They can see the sin with the eyes of a hawk, but can't see how people have formed friendships across boundary lines, how people are able to communicate more, how there are discoveries for disease, new artwork, new songs, the establishment of Civil Rights bringing about equality...

They only see the bad.

So, you simply wonder where that joy is that they speak of. Usually, they say that they are joyful because they will be in heaven one day. So, what are they doing here on earth to make this a place like heaven? Throwing their hands up, saying, "come quickly Lord Jesus....and soon!", ignoring all the good He surrounds them with, and the good that others do to love their neighbor here in this lifetime.

They seem comfortable to be told, "I was hungry, and all you could do was bemoan about the starving people in the world, say, "Come quickly Lord Jesus, and soon!" and walk on." If one isn't happy in this world, I question if one will be happy in heaven. People are drawn to those who have a light that is inside them, one that isn't full of fear of the world, but of joy, of kindness, of compassion, of mercy, of happiness.

People avoid people who are Debby Downer, that find the dark cloud in every silver lining, and nothing more.
 
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Beanieboy

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btw, I'm sorry if I lashed out in anger or frustration, and painted a broad brush on all Christians, because I know there are many who demonstrate the love and humility of God. I am also sorry that you are perceived as those who speak the loudest, and that you may be attacked, mocked, or judged far more than you should be.
 
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quatona

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I thought this site was interesting, maybe even good and refreshing, except it's rather slow. I wondered what all of you thought, both Christians and non. Do Christian have any moral obligation to apologise? If so why, if not, why not.

http://www.christiansconfess.com/

Wasn't completely sure where to post this, hope this is cool.

I am impressed by those "confessions" and apologies that operate with the term "I". I tend to feel very uncomfortable with confessions and apologies on behalf of a group. Even more so when I get the feeling the person speaking does not really consider himself part of the fraction of the group on behalf of which he apologizes.

Do Christian have any moral obligation to apologise? If so why, if not, why not.
Not sure I understand the question.
 
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PurpletheHeathen

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Do Christian have any moral obligation to apologise? If so why, if not, why not.
Not sure I understand the question.

I think that was kinda unclear, sorry. I wonder if within the faith itself if Christians have an obligation to apologise to others, not God, when they have wronged someone. Not just to other Christians but with non-christians as well. Most Christians I know feel obligated to forgive people to some extent, to me this is the other side of the coin.
 
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sk8Joyful

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I wonder
if within the faith itself if Christians have an obligation to apologise to others, not God, when they have wronged someone.
Not just to other Christians but with non-christians as well. Most Christians I know feel obligated to forgive people to some extent, to me this is the other side of the coin.
What if the other side of the coin of pain, misery & suffering,
were to be apology, forgiveness & healing, by both people. what a difference to make the Difference, eh ;)

Good thread! :thumbsup:
 
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Beanieboy

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I'm not sure who recently posted, but thank you for bumping this thread.

I read the responses, and am overjoyed by what I see. It isn't snide anger, no one saying, "well, you should be sorry!"

And the Christian responses, to me, display Christ. One apologizes for demanding that another lives to their expectations, realizing that they had replaced God. One apologized for being christian but gossiping about others, realizing their own sin, and humbling themselves.
Here's the thing, it's pretty clear that Jesus came to bring hope, healing and freedom and we, the church, his followers have sucked all the fun out of that. We've taken the hope out of hope and continued wounding the wounded and piled chains on slaves. I am so sorry.
This one realizes their difference between Jesus' approach, and theirs.
So many apologized for acting in arrogance, acting to exclude, to exalt the self, and apologize as much to Christ as to others.

In response, I saw this:
I apologize for all the times I feared you when you revealed yourself to be a Christian. I apologize for all the times I rejected your thoughts and opinions just because you are a Christian. I apologize for all the times my beliefs in universal unity wavered. I apologize for all the times my patience gave out.

I think we have a lot more to offer one another and a lot more to gain from coming together then we have by staying separated and pulling apart. Hopefully one day we will all come together under the umbrella of love.

She admits her part of it, her unfairness, and rather than simply accept and apology, offers hers in kind.
I am not Christian. I am sorry that I rolled my eyes when I saw the name of this site. I am sorry that I judged every Christian on the planet to be the same.

I remember the first time I saw it, I had tears in my eyes. It was the first time I have never had to feel like I was on the defense. It was the first time I have seen a Christian apologize, rather than accuse or demand repentance.

It's not perfect:
I love the idea of this. But I don't see it working.

There was a confession booth on my campus, and they asked if we had anything we felt Christians had wronged us with. I told them I felt like I'd been kicked out of my church for being gay, at a time I was struggling with it, and two of them visibly recoiled.

There is nobility to the intent of this. But seeing that recoil of disgust, like I'm a leper, that kicks hard enough I'm shut off to the message. Can Christians really confess these sins before they repent? Words are lovely and words are good, but they are only words, and an apology is always too little, too late. What's the point of confessing or apologizing as long as you go on, unchanging? I don't see the rhyme or reason.

When I go to groups that work for social welfare--Invisible Children, runaways' shelters, whatever--it's never the Christians giving their heart and soul. I see secularists burning themselves out to save the world while the religious skip out with apologies and excuses and talk that they can't do it all, only God can really solve problems. Is there a point to all these words? Are they anything but a way to pretend you're changing? I don't see the apologies as anything more than words. When do I get treated as an equal? If Christians number so many in the world, when do they stand up and finally make a real difference? Why don't you ever do more than apologize and talk?

This sounds like anger. It's not. It's anguish. You're bailing out the Titanic with a little tin bucket.

Having been there myself, those are pretty deep wounds, and are always threatened to be re-opened by those that claim that I am not Christian, a lonely place to be, and something I talk about to God a lot.

But it's a start. It's a beginning, and in a world that is so cold to one another, and something that I even feel overwhelming on this board from time to time, using a bucket to save the Titanic is better than doing nothing at all, or worse, putting more holes in the boat.

Some of the responses ask harder questions:
Your banner says “Please help us to discover how we can do better.” Okay. This a wonderful start, and it’s just a start. Too often an apology is a cheap substitute for actually fixing the problem. Talk is cheap. As an atheist my moral principles come from inside myself rather than from outside, and I’m tough on myself when I screw up. I have to make amends rather than merely apologize. An amend is to repair what I broke, return what I took, heal what I injured. Not only does an amend make things right, it’s a lot of work and it keeps me from repeating the offense much better than just an apology.

If you as a Christian apologize for something that other Christians have done, or your religion in general has done, what, if anything will be your personal amend? Will you work hard to get other Christians to stop those offenses, fearlessly getting in their faces? Will you petition your church to take a strong and active stand for eradicating the offensive practice? If your apology is about yourself but still is vague and general like “I’m sorry I have been a self-righteous jerk,” what will be your specific personal amend? Will you seek out the particular victims of your unkindness to make actual amends? Will you successfully avoid repeating similar behaviors in the future? Or will your apology soothe your conscience just enough so that you can resume your old habits?

An apology is vibrating air. An amend is tangible action. You are what you do, not what you say. Congratulations on a good start. If you follow through with making real changes, your life, your principles and your religion will have real, solid meaning.

At first, my response is, "wow, dude, chillax. Don't bite the person's head off for an apology." However, looking at the deeper meaning, I am brought to think of when someone has really hurt me, or stabbed me in the back. The offender then returns, and says, "Sorry", and acts like that makes it all better, like it is magically erased. Do I forgive? Certainly, but that doesn't mean the hurt is still there, the breach of trust is still there and has to be earned back, and realizing that a simple "sorry" sometimes isn't enough, and the offender has to truly understand on what level they hurt you, how deeply, to know that pain and hurt, and acknowledge it.

And that isn't easy. That's really, really hard. You have to face some ugliness about yourself, and worse, how you may have offended God himself.

I see this as a gift. It allows us to understand the depth of God's forgiveness, to not take it for granted but truly know how much mercy and understanding we have been granted. We come to understand the depth of God's love, that doesn't stop or cease or is withheld no matter what we do, and how much it surpasses us, so much so, that I can't truly comprehend it. And it humbles us before mankind, apologizes for exalting ourselves, when we should be acknowledging God's mercy which we don't deserve, God's forgiveness which we could never earn, our thankfulness for love which we don't deserve and are given anyway, when approaching anyone, knowing ourselves to be no better than anyone else, and acting as such.

This is what I have been praying for lately, for healing among the people, and seeds have been planted. We must only nurture them now by offering our part of the problem, and acting upon the acknowledgment, living the apology to others, and to Christ.
 
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Texas Lynn

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As a therapist in recovery from domestic violence/sexual assault offenses I am firm in the general belief that "everyone is 100% responsible for their own behavior". I have been challenged on this by certain liberal Christians who regard some things as having collective responsibilities. Perhaps, but I am loath to accept this except on the most peripheral level.

But given the diverse nature of the Christian faith, I certainly do not not apologize for what happened to Gallileo, the women of Salem, Masachusetts in 1692, and so forth.

But, yes...The Roman Catholic Church was right to apologize to Gallileo 500 years after the fact. The fact they didn't sooner is to their own disgrace. And the treatment of LGBTs by conservative Christian individuals, churches, and parachurch groups is certainly a great evil they commit. For this reason the rest of us need to be especially protective of oppressed people such as this.
 
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Beanieboy

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What is the point of an anonymous confession? Is it so one can feel better about doing something without having to face any of the consequences?

That's no confession at all.

It's kind of like PostSecret.

I think that seeing the apologies are better than none at all, especially if you have been on the receiving end of it for the last 20 years.
 
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Beanieboy

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As a therapist in recovery from domestic violence/sexual assault offenses I am firm in the general belief that "everyone is 100% responsible for their own behavior". I have been challenged on this by certain liberal Christians who regard some things as having collective responsibilities. Perhaps, but I am loath to accept this except on the most peripheral level.

But given the diverse nature of the Christian faith, I certainly do not not apologize for what happened to Gallileo, the women of Salem, Masachusetts in 1692, and so forth.

But, yes...The Roman Catholic Church was right to apologize to Gallileo 500 years after the fact. The fact they didn't sooner is to their own disgrace. And the treatment of LGBTs by conservative Christian individuals, churches, and parachurch groups is certainly a great evil they commit. For this reason the rest of us need to be especially protective of oppressed people such as this.

I don't think that anyone is asking that you be personally responsible for what happened to Galileo, but rather, take some time, and think about how you may have not acted in Christ, and acted in selfishness or harm to others.

I have, often thinking myself better than others secretly, and now, realize that I don't earn God's love, and can approach others in love and humility.

And the GLBT thing - when the Church kicked out gay people specifically, it was when I decided that it was no longer a church following God. That, and being told that God didn't love me were really hard on me.
 
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