A glimpse at our Eastern & Western Christian Churches

[JoyAlton]

Here's a small glimpse video discussion (between Justin Hibbard {Protestant convert to Roman Catholicism} and father deacon Anthony Dragani {convert from Roman Catholicism to Eastern Ukrainian Catholicism} ) about the Eastern and Western Churches. Anthony's church is one of the 23 Eastern Catholic churches (his being Byzantine Rite started by the Apostle James as I understand it) & the only Western Catholic Church (Roman or Latin Rite started by the Apostles Peter and Paul). The Orthodox churches (which I dearly love) are also touched on. If you want to skip the intro, begin at timestamp 08:50-20:00. There is a lot more to cover on this topic but you will get a small glimpse of the history. The Eastern Catholic Churches broke from our Orthodox brethren to return to unity with Rome, many of them since the 1054 Schism as I understand it. Enjoy...

 

[The Liturgist]

Here's a small glimpse video discussion (between Justin Hibbard {Protestant convert to Roman Catholicism} and father deacon Anthony Dragani {convert from Roman Catholicism to Eastern Ukrainian Catholicism} ) about the Eastern and Western Churches. Anthony's church is one of the 23 Eastern Catholic churches (his being Byzantine Rite started by the Apostle James as I understand it) & the only Western Catholic Church (Roman or Latin Rite started by the Apostles Peter and Paul). The Orthodox churches (which I dearly love) are also touched on. If you want to skip the intro, begin at timestamp 08:50-20:00. There is a lot more to cover on this topic but you will get a small glimpse of the history. The Eastern Catholic Churches broke from our Orthodox brethren to return to unity with Rome, many of them since the 1054 Schism as I understand it. Enjoy...

Very nice. I think every Western Christian on CF.com needs to learn more about Eastern Christianity, including Eastern Orthodoxy, Oriental Orthodoxy and the Assyrian Church of the East, and also the sui juris Eastern Rite Catholic Churches (which used to be called Uniates, but this word has become offensive to Eastern Catholics and inaccurate in the case of Maronites or Italo-Albanian Greek Catholics, or Hungarian Greek Catholics, among others).

 

[JoyAlton]

Very nice. I think every Western Christian on CF.com needs to learn more about Eastern Christianity, including Eastern Orthodoxy, Oriental Orthodoxy and the Assyrian Church of the East, and also the sui juris Eastern Rite Catholic Churches (which used to be called Uniates, but this word has become offensive to Eastern Catholics and inaccurate in the case of Maronites or Italo-Albanian Greek Catholics, or Hungarian Greek Catholics, among others).

Your response brought to mind something I heard recently that I had never considered in any practical way. We Westerners readily understand that we were heavily influenced by the Protestant Reformation. We know the Eastern Christians (ie. Eastern Catholics and Orthodox) were spared the difficulties brought about by the Reformation. What I had never considered before is how, in a similar way, Western Christianity was spared the difficulties brought about by Islam whereas, Eastern Christians have suffered, not only competition, but severe and prolonged persecutions.

 

[JoyAlton]

Very nice. I think every Western Christian on CF.com needs to learn more about Eastern Christianity, including Eastern Orthodoxy, Oriental Orthodoxy and the Assyrian Church of the East, and also the sui juris Eastern Rite Catholic Churches (which used to be called Uniates, but this word has become offensive to Eastern Catholics and inaccurate in the case of Maronites or Italo-Albanian Greek Catholics, or Hungarian Greek Catholics, among others).

Oh, I forgot to include the severe persecutions Eastern Christians have also suffered under Communism.

 

[cradleGO]

Here's a small glimpse video discussion (between Justin Hibbard {Protestant convert to Roman Catholicism} and father deacon Anthony Dragani {convert from Roman Catholicism to Eastern Ukrainian Catholicism} ) about the Eastern and Western Churches. Anthony's church is one of the 23 Eastern Catholic churches (his being Byzantine Rite started by the Apostle James as I understand it) & the only Western Catholic Church (Roman or Latin Rite started by the Apostles Peter and Paul). The Orthodox churches (which I dearly love) are also touched on. If you want to skip the intro, begin at timestamp 08:50-20:00. There is a lot more to cover on this topic but you will get a small glimpse of the history. The Eastern Catholic Churches broke from our Orthodox brethren to return to unity with Rome, many of them since the 1054 Schism as I understand it. Enjoy...

The Greek Catholic Church (Byzantine Rite) in Ukraine transferred to Rome based on the Moscow Orthodox interfering with the Kyiv Metropolitanate (Orthodox) - the true See to which they had been under. Moscow didn't fully complete the takeover for another 100 or so years, but the decision to come under Rome was not a great love of the Pontiff but the love of independence and their Ukrainian identity. (Plus, Kyiv is the mother church of Moscow. Not the other way 'round. Galling!)

Now the Kyiv Metropolitanate has been restored, and is in fact an autocephalous (self-governing) church in Orthodoxy. The Orthodox Primate and the Greek Catholic Patriarch (Archbishop) are on good terms. What may be interesting is when the Russians are defeated, will the Greek Catholics choose to come home to the Kyiv Metropolitanate? Now the Kyiv Church has its own issues within Orthodoxy in that Moscow stirs up the several Orthodoxy Sees preventing recognition of its status by all. But history shows, that will be worked out. But, perhaps before then, there may be movement of the Greek Catholics. Stay tuned.

 

[cradleGO]

Your response brought to mind something I heard recently that I had never considered in any practical way. We Westerners readily understand that we were heavily influenced by the Protestant Reformation. We know the Eastern Christians (ie. Eastern Catholics and Orthodox) were spared the difficulties brought about by the Reformation. What I had never considered before is how, in a similar way, Western Christianity was spared the difficulties brought about by Islam whereas, Eastern Christians have suffered, not only competition, but severe and prolonged persecutions.

The Orthodox were influenced by the Muslims in a big way in that Islam was the hidden factor for the iconoclast controversy. Some saw the supposed simplicity of Islam and asked why are the Churches filled with these images? And there has been flirting with protestant views within Orthodoxy.

Complicating the matter is that Orthodoxy sees the Holy Spirit working within the world. It even investigated Mormonism. And yes, communism was a great test. The effects still linger especially in the Moscow church, but more of an ethnic supremacy (Russkie Mir) and a subservience to the state.

 

[Andrewn]

Complicating the matter is that Orthodoxy sees the Holy Spirit working within the world. It even investigated Mormonism.

What do you mean? I can probably guess, but better hear it from you.

 

[The Liturgist]

What do you mean? I can probably guess, but better hear it from you.

I have no idea what is meant by “Orthodoxy investigated Mormonism”, since the extent of Mormon-Orthodox contact has been very low. But at least they haven’t violently oppressed the Orthodox like the Muslims or the Communists.

 

[cradleGO]

What do you mean? I can probably guess, but better hear it from you.

Only that they looked into it. I'm sure they didn't proceed any further once they were told the Mormon's view of the Virgin Mary. The main point is that the Orthodox see the Holy Spirit in this world.

In response to The Liturgist's comment, I doubt there could ever be a dialogue with the Mormons. The 19th century brought forth many weird cults and cult beliefs. Satan was very busy. Also early 20th century. No branch of Christianity was immune.

 

[The Liturgist]

In response to The Liturgist's comment, I doubt there could ever be a dialogue with the Mormons. The 19th century brought forth many weird cults and cult beliefs.

Indeed, I do hope my post did not suggest otherwise. Mormonism is one of the most perverse cults that preys upon would be Christians. It has aspects of Tritheism, Henotheism, Polytheism and a number of other bad things.

Mormons also seem to get disproportionately involved in child abuse and other criminality.

However unlike a lot of other religions, the Mormons have not persecuted the Orthodox, violently at least. I seem to get on well with Mormons.

 

[Andrewn]

The main point is that the Orthodox see the Holy Spirit in this world.

This point is of interest to me. The Church Father Origen considered the Holy Spirit to be present only in Christians, and almost all Christians have a similar view. But the Lord said,

"The Spirit blows where it chooses,
and you hear the sound of it,
but you do not know where it comes from
or where it goes.
So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
(Joh 3:8).

I changed "wind" into "Spirit," the same Greek word. I know this verse is a favorite one among the EO.

 

[Nagomirov]

Вот небольшая видеодискуссия (между Джастином Хиббардом {протестант, обращенный в римский католицизм} и отцом-диаконом Антонием Драгани {переходящий из римо-католицизма в восточно-украинский католицизм}) о Восточной и Западной Церквях. Церковь Антония является одной из 23 восточных католических церквей (византийский обряд, основанный апостолом Иаковом, как я понимаю) и единственной западной католической церковью (римский или латинский обряд, основанный апостолами Петром и Павлом). Затронуты и православные храмы (которые я очень люблю). Если вы хотите пропустить вступление, начните с метки времени 08:50-20:00. На эту тему можно рассказать еще многое, но вы получите небольшое представление об истории. Восточные Католические Церкви отделились от наших православных братьев, чтобы вернуться к единству с Римом, многие из них после раскола 1054 года, как я понимаю. Наслаждаться...

 

[Nagomirov]

Греко-католическая церковь (византийского обряда) в Украине перешла в Рим на основании вмешательства Московской православной митрополии (православной) - истинного престола, которому они подчинялись. Москва не завершила полностью захват в течение следующих 100 лет или около того, но решение перейти под власть Рима было не большой любовью понтифика, а любовью к независимости и украинской идентичности. (Кроме того, Киев является церковью-матерью Москвы. А не наоборот. Галлинг!)

Сейчас Киевская митрополия восстановлена, и фактически является автокефальной (самоуправляемой) церковью в Православии. Православный Предстоятель и Греко-Католический Патриарх (Архиепископ) находятся в хороших отношениях. Что может быть интересно, так это то, когда русские потерпят поражение, захотят ли греко-католики вернуться домой в Киевскую митрополию? Сейчас у Киевской Церкви есть свои проблемы внутри Православия, связанные с тем, что Москва разжигает несколько православных кафедр, препятствуя признанию ее статуса всеми. Но история показывает, что это получится. Но, возможно, до этого произойдет движение греко-католиков. Следите за новостями.

Нет, неверно. На Украине были православные братства, они были в юрисдикции Константинопольского патриархата. Городские общины Украины, группировались вот в эти самые церковные братства. Наиболее влиятельными были львовское братство в Галиции, виленское в Литве и богоявленское в Киеве. Братства принимали участие в выборе епископов и митрополитов, следили за управлением церковным имуществом, протестовали против злоупотреблений епископов и вообще лиц духовных, защищали интересы Церкви перед властью и т.. Епископы и лица духовные тяготились вмешательством братств в церковные дела. У некоторых епископов было желание отделаться от нежеланной опеки; это вызывало на борьбу с братствами и впоследствии даже побуждало к переходу в унию. В этих условиях группа представителей высшей православной иерархии начала склоняться к мысли о целесообразности унии с римо-католиками. В основе таких настроений лежали и личные интересы духовенства (желание сберечь собственные земельные владения и сравняться в политических правах с католическим духовенством), и стремление владык вывести Церковь из кризиса. Тайное обсуждение этих планов продолжалось несколько лет. Когда же они стали известны православной общественности, против них, помимо князя Острожского, выступило мелкое западнорусское дворянство, православный клир среднего звена, мещанство, а также новое сословие — казачество. Но повторюсь, что православные братства находились под юрисдикцией Константинопольского патриарха.

 

[Nagomirov]

Православные находились под сильным влиянием мусульман в том смысле, что ислам был скрытым фактором для иконоборческих споров. Некоторые видели мнимую простоту ислама и спрашивали, почему Церкви наполнены этими изображениями? Кроме того, в Православии происходит заигрывание с протестантскими взглядами.

Дело осложняется тем, что Православие видит Святого Духа, действующего в мире. Она даже исследовала мормонизм. И да, коммунизм был большим испытанием. Последствия все еще ощущаются, особенно в московской церкви, но в большей степени это этническое превосходство (Русский мир) и подчинение государству.

Копты живут в самой гуще мусульман, и копты богаты иконами. Посмотрите сколько много икон у коптов, как богата их иконографическая культура.