A flat earth and an earth-centered universe

[JohnClay]

"Well it could have said "head" and the earth is like a ball, etc. Uneducated people would be able to understand that (as much as they could understand a heart was involved)."

Not if such understanding was not characteristic of the listeners.

Use idioms that they are not accustomed to ... and you have just just set up a real barrier to communication ... and/or a path to miscommunication ...

I think five year olds (or at least ten year olds) can understand sayings that talk about the head being used for thoughts and that the world is a ball.

 

[JohnClay]

....When talking about the immorality of certain foods today, rather than questioning people from ancient civilizations, you may find certain people from PETA and a number of vegetarians today who like to engage you in that discussion. Personally I do not think it's best represented by using the word morality, it's better suited to the word faith.

The penalty of being "cut off" for eating blood implies they were naughty or were contaminated.

 

[JackRT]

I think five year olds can understand sayings that talk about the head being used for thoughts and that the world is a ball.

We live in a world that is pervaded with the idea that thoughts are "in our head" and the world is a ball. That is our present day cosmology. The Biblical world had a flat earth cosmology that was equally pervasive. The ordinary person would never even think of questioning a cosmology and even extraordinary people would think twice about doing so.

 

[Foxfyre]

There are a lot of verses that seem to say that the earth is flat and that it doesn't move and the sun moves around the earth.

e.g.
Over 200 Bible scriptures say the earth is FLAT! #FlatEarthDoctrine

Can Christians name ANY verses that imply the earth is NOT flat or is a ball or that the earth travels around the sun?

The only verses I can think of are Isaiah 40:22 ("circle of the earth" could be translated as "ball") and Job 26:7 ("he suspends the earth over nothing" - compare earth to balls like the moon and the sun).

Isaiah 40:22

There is nothing in that verse that conflicts with the flat earth interpretation. If the earth is a ball, the throne would only be "above" some of the earth - to some people the throne would be to the side, and to others it would be below them. If they were grasshoppers on a flat earth, God would be able to see them, but on a ball some would be hidden by the earth. A tent could exist above a flat earth, but not really around a ball.

Job 26:7

Flat earthers believe the earth floats over nothing - so this isn't opposed to the flat earth theory. It may imply the earth can be compared to other things that float like the moon and sun, but that is a very indirect way of saying the earth is a ball.

In the beginning (Genesis 1:1) God created the heavens (empty space?) and the earth. Psalm 104:5 says "He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved." The sun was created on day 4. It doesn't make sense according to the Bible that the earth is in fact moving around the sun. Joshua 10:13 says "...The sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going down about a full day." According to science what actually would have happened would have been that the earth stopped rotating on its axis.

This is more than a case of many verses supporting the flat earth theory and geocentrism. It is what seems to be a complete absence of support for a spherical earth and heliocentrism.

If the Bible supported heliocentrism then Galileo wouldn't have gotten in trouble with the church.

Unless literally hundreds of thousands if not many millions of people who have studied this planet and space and the objects in it, the photographic and video evidence, the eye witness testimony of those who have been in space to see for themselves or traveled the circumference of the Earth that would have been impossible if the Earth was flat, and all the Earth scientists who operate on the settled science of planetary interaction and astrophysics have joined in some great conspiracy to lie about it, I have to believe the Earth is spherical in shape.

I also believe that those who wrote the Old Testament were simple nomads, farmers, merchants, tradesmen, and other people of those times who had no knowledge or concept of astrophysics. Limited by their own experience and language, they described the Earth as they saw it--and if you stand on a flat plain and look around, it does appear to be a flat surface covered by the dome that we call the sky. So that is how they describe it, i.e. what it looked like to them or what they could imagine within their experience.

And I don't think God really cares all that much what we believe about that one way or the other. So I am quite happy to allow the flat Earthers the comfort of their belief--it harms me or others not in the least--and I am quite happy to allow all the others their own theories about the origins and manifestations of life in the universe and on Planet Earth even when I sometimes can't quite agree with them.

 

[JohnClay]

We live in a world that is pervaded with the idea that thoughts are "in our head" and the world is a ball. That is our present day cosmology. The Biblical world had a flat earth cosmology that was equally pervasive. The ordinary person would never even think of questioning a cosmology and even extraordinary people would think twice about doing so.

So you agree the Biblical world had a flat earth cosmology? That implies that the Bible may also be inaccurate about spiritual matters.

 

[JohnClay]

....I also believe that those who wrote the Old Testament were simple nomads, farmers, merchants, tradesmen, and other people of those times who had no knowledge or concept of astrophysics. Limited by their own experience and language, they described the Earth as they saw it--and if you stand on a flat plain and look around, it does appear to be a flat surface covered by the dome that we call the sky. So that is how they describe it, i.e. what it looked like to them or what they could imagine within their experience.

If the Bible came from the flawed beliefs of the authors, how can you be sure they are correct about spiritual matters?

And I don't think God really cares all that much what we believe about that one way or the other. So I am quite happy to allow the flat Earthers the comfort of their belief--it harms me or others not in the least--and I am quite happy to allow all the others their own theories about the origins and manifestations of life in the universe and on Planet Earth even when I sometimes can't quite agree with them.

The fact that the Bible never contradicts the flat earth belief can make it harder for skeptics to believe that the Bible is the "truth".

 

[A_Thinker]

So you agree the Biblical world had a flat earth cosmology? That implies that the Bible may also be inaccurate about spiritual matters.

Not really ... as the two areas of thought are quite different ...

 

[JohnClay]

"So you agree the Biblical world had a flat earth cosmology? That implies that the Bible may also be inaccurate about spiritual matters."

Not really ... as the two areas of thought are quite different ...

Well it seemed the pastor Martin Luther King Jr was skeptical that spiritual matters could be taken literally based on science:
Was Martin Luther King Jr. a Christian?
"....[A] supernatural plan of salvation, the Trinity, the substitutionary theory of the atonement, and the second coming of Christ are all quite prominent in fundamentalist thinking. Such are the views of the fundamentalist and they reveal that he is oppose[d] to theological adaption to social and cultural change. … Amid change all around he is willing to preserve certain ancient ideas even though they are contrary to science...."
See this post

 

[JackRT]

"So you agree the Biblical world had a flat earth cosmology? That implies that the Bible may also be inaccurate about spiritual matters."

Well it seemed the pastor Martin Luther King Jr was skeptical that spiritual matters could be taken literally based on science:
Was Martin Luther King Jr. a Christian?
"....[A] supernatural plan of salvation, the Trinity, the substitutionary theory of the atonement, and the second coming of Christ are all quite prominent in fundamentalist thinking. Such are the views of the fundamentalist and they reveal that he is oppose[d] to theological adaption to social and cultural change. … Amid change all around he is willing to preserve certain ancient ideas even though they are contrary to science...."
See this post

You have given me a new respect for Martin Luther King Jr.

 

[Foxfyre]

If the Bible came from the flawed beliefs of the authors, how can you be sure they are correct about spiritual matters?


The fact that the Bible never contradicts the flat earth belief can make it harder for skeptics to believe that the Bible is the "truth".

If we allow the Bible to include metaphor and symbolism to express faith, then we don't have flawed beliefs. Certainly that the people of the Bible had never been exposed to disciplines of science and had little or no understanding of it would explain why their perceptions and understanding was explained maybe a bit vaguely or more metaphorically than literally accurate. To see the Scriptures in that light should strengthen faith instead of making it harder to achieve.

While inferences can be drawn by those struggling to interpret the intent of the descriptions, metaphors, allegory, symbolism, etc. found throughout the scriptures, at no place does the Bible expressly state that the Earth is flat. Nor does it make any attempt to describe what is under the 'flat' Earth. In Revelation we find reference to four corners of the Earth while Isaiah references the circle of the Earth. You can't have a circle with corners so one or the other or most likely both can't really be supported as anything other than metaphor unless there is human interpretation read into it that the Scriptures simply don't say.

Most Bible skeptics are skeptics because many passages literally translated in the Bible lsimply do not make sense to them. But once they can see that the Bible is an incredible collection of literature made up of allegory, parable, symbolism, metaphor, poetry, prophecy, law, history, wisdom teachings, etc. etc. etc., and they do not have to take every chapter and verse literally but some are rather illustration/explanation of God's Creation, it comes alive for them. Then than are able to appreciate a God that cared deeply for and steered His people into a destiny they had to take on faith which in itself is a wonderful thing. Just as the Bible describes.

 

[JohnClay]

.....While inferences can be drawn by those struggling to interpret the intent of the descriptions, metaphors, allegory, symbolism, etc. found throughout the scriptures, at no place does the Bible expressly state that the Earth is flat.

I think "above the circle of the earth" or "the four corners of the earth" are saying the earth is flat.

....In Revelation we find reference to four corners of the Earth while Isaiah references the circle of the Earth. You can't have a circle with corners so one or the other or most likely both can't really be supported as anything other than metaphor unless there is human interpretation read into it that the Scriptures simply don't say.

This picture has four corners as well as a circle:

Revelation is a vision though and like other visions in the Bible, (like the tall tree in Daniel) it isn't realistic.
Revelation 7:1 says "After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth...."
Maybe John saw four big angels like in the picture.
It goes against the normal flat earth theory but it is still a version of a flat earth.

Most Bible skeptics are skeptics because many passages literally translated in the Bible simply do not make sense to them. But once they can see that the Bible is an incredible collection of literature made up of allegory, parable, symbolism, metaphor, poetry, prophecy, law, history, wisdom teachings, etc. etc. etc., and they do not have to take every chapter and verse literally

But you said some of it is history.
e.g. Logistics of the Exodus
"....the Israelites grew from a clan of 70 to a nation of 2-3 million that left Egypt in the Exodus 430 years later..."
or there was a global flood about 4500 years ago or many people lived to be 900+ years before the flood...

....but some are rather illustration/explanation of God's Creation, it comes alive for them. Then than are able to appreciate a God that cared deeply for and steered His people into a destiny they had to take on faith which in itself is a wonderful thing. Just as the Bible describes.

I prefer to use reason as much as possible rather than faith. Though perhaps that will cause me to go to hell and God would make the wisdom of this world be foolishness.

 

[Steve Petersen]

I think "above the circle of the earth" or "the four corners of the earth" are saying the earth is flat.


This picture has four corners as well as a circle:

Revelation is a vision though and like other visions in the Bible, (like the tall tree in Daniel) it isn't realistic.
Revelation 7:1 says "After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth...."
Maybe John saw four big angels like in the picture.
It goes against the normal flat earth theory but it is still a version of a flat earth.


But you said some of it is history.
e.g. Logistics of the Exodus
"....the Israelites grew from a clan of 70 to a nation of 2-3 million that left Egypt in the Exodus 430 years later..."
or there was a global flood about 4500 years ago or many people lived to be 900+ years before the flood...


I prefer to use reason as much as possible rather than faith. Though perhaps that will cause me to go to hell and God would make the wisdom of this world be foolishness.

Where are the pillars? (Job 9:6, Psalms 75:3)

 

[SeventyOne]

Where are the pillars? (Job 9:6, Psalms 75:3)

Somewhere below us. 1 Samuel 2:8

 

[JackRT]

Where are the pillars? (Job 9:6, Psalms 75:3)

One under each corner?

 

[Steve Petersen]

One under each corner?

Too bad we've never been to space so we can get a picture of them. Of course, if we tried, we'd probably bounce off the dome 3000 mile up.

 

[JackRT]

Too bad we've never been to space so we can get a picture of them. Of course, if we tried, we'd probably bounce off the dome 3000 mile up.

They are firmly planted on the shell of the top turtle.

 

[Tinker Grey]

They are firmly planted on the shell of the top turtle.

And the pillars are shaped like elephants?

 

[Norbert L]

The penalty of being "cut off" for eating blood implies they were naughty or were contaminated.

It implies the blood is life and this was a way of expressing that life belongs to God. Which if you think about it, by not acknowledging that life comes from God, that kind of thinking cuts a person off from trying to involve God in their life.

 

[cvanwey]

I'm smelling quite a bit of confirmation bias, for anyone actually clinging to a 'non-spherical' planet model....

 

[SeventyOne]

I'm smelling quite a bit of confirmation bias, for anyone actually clinging to a 'non-spherical' planet model....

Actually, if you consider flat-earthers used to be ball-earthers, then looking for anything and everything to confirm their current thought just doesn't seem to be one of the characteristics as the evidence is exactly the opposite.