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The incredible odds of something being the way it is does not show it was finely tuned for being the way it is.
You start by declaring the universe is fine tuned for us; this is an assertion and you have no evidence for this.
Why?
Why?
What does bodies have to do with Consciousness?
That doesn't make sense Αρχαιοπτέρυξ, Reductionism doesn't say that, it says that complexity is responsible for our consciousness, its not just the arrangement , we are not the only conscious beings in fact there are brainless organisms with different arrangement from ours and still are conscious.
Exactly. We know there was a purpose for the guitar's creation.
Please provide this proof that consciousness precedes matter.
I don't understand how you don't get this.
1) How do you know something preceded the universe?
2) If something did, how do you know of its intentions?
3) What physical necessity doesn't work here?
You have to assert a purpose and intention first, before arriving at your conclusions.
Never mind. I see why you'll never understand how you are wrong.
Saying the mountain and landscape were fine tuned from the laws and constants of nature means you believe they were purposefully and intently made to be the way are; like a painter.
However, they were naturally formed, from the randomness of nature and time, not fine tuned.
Was the purpose and intent of the laws and constants of nature when they fine tuned the mountains and landscape?
Like who?
Why should this matter to me?
No, it isn't. That is not at all a plausible name for my worldview, and it is not even a name for a worldview at all
You may know what some atheists believe. However, since atheists may disagree on virtually any issue other than belief in the existence of a God or gods, and there is in fact a great variety of belief among atheists, you can't know what all atheists believe by knowing what "an atheist" believes.
Yes, but you had somehow turned that into "You said God is a Deity therefor His images are too deities". There is no logical connection between the two statements.
eudaimonia,
Mark
The Philosophers that you own your "name" the Epicurean Philosophers
Atheos means without a God the fact that you describe yourself as an atheist means that you carry their definition an these people were hedonists because they philosophized the atheist thing and ended up in the conclusion that Materialism leads to hedonism therefor if you go against hedonism you carry some type of dualistic metaphysical morality worldview.
So you believe in something from nothing? Prove it.
For the third time God is Eternal, He has no purpose, Eternity is purposeless. The intention of God was to create us, His intention stopped in the 7th day when He rested and we took the authority of His Creation.
But they couldn't be created if etc the gravitational constant was different. Randomness doesn't exist, the laws and the constants determine the result, what you are describing as Randomness is luck of information, if we could know all the information we could know the result.
What is not fine tuned then? With that assertion everything in the Universe is Fine Tuned, everywhere we look at there is fine tuning and chance cannot solve it neither your delusional Multiverses!
Fine tuning: Size of Earth | Uncommon Descent
Yes the Universe is Fine Tuned for us because we exist and because our Minds affect matter and not the other way around to claim that every element in the Universe is equal to us, obviously the fact that we are conscious precedes materialism and not it doesn't go against realism.
Yes the Universe is Fine Tuned for us because we exist
and because our Minds affect matter and not the other way around to claim that every element in the Universe is equal to us, obviously the fact that we are conscious precedes materialism and not it doesn't go against realism.
But they couldn't be created if etc the gravitational constant was different.
Epicurus was not an atheist. He believed in the existence of gods. I suppose one could call him a polydeist, since he did not believe that the gods were interested in human beings or listened to their prayers.
You are waaaaay off base here. Absurdly off base. I can't believe that I am reading someone write that.
I am familiar with Epicureanism. I'm not an Epicurean. I'm not even closely related to Epicurus or his followers philosophically.
Epicurus was influenced by Greek atomism (from Democritus), and I don't share much with him in that. Yes, I accept the modern idea of atoms, as per quantum physics, but that isn't really that close to Greek atomism except for retaining the word "atom". You keep trying to associate "Materialism" with me, but I am not a Materialist.
I do not believe in something from nothing. That's something Christians believe in, with their doctrine of creation ex nihilo.
This statement here is all you need to know about how jimfit's mind works. There is nothing to discuss. The logic is so backwards...
You can't reason someone out of a position that he didn't reason himself into. It's just fallacy after fallacy after fallacy
And what follows after the fallacious statement, is an incomprehensible word salad.
Because the Atheist believes that we are here due to Luck?
PLEASE PROVE ME THAT LUCK EXISTS TO CLAIM THAT WE WERE JUST LUCKY!
[Epicurus] said that he couldn't prove that there are no Gods and he chose to disobey Him aka to live without a God.
Special pleading and circular reasoning.
This is not a logically sound statement when trying to determine anything, since the thing you are referencing is the thing in question.
More assertions: they were created instead of formed, there is no randomness, etc.
Law and constants allow results and determine what they can be. They do not willingly, intentionally or purposefully create specific results, unless you assume that they were "supposed to be that way" or "supposed to happen". Which is an assertion.
"Because we exist" and "our minds affect matter" (whatever that means) is zero evidence for the universe being fine tuned.
It is your blind assertion that those qualities mean something significant.
And if things were different, things would be different. Who would have thought, ey?
You are putting words in atheists' mouths. No atheist that I have ever heard of has attributed our existence to some metaphysical form of "luck".
Source?
eudaimonia,
Mark
When someone claims that our existence doesn't need an explanation because if it were different we wouldn't be here he is beginning the question and implies luck.
Well, no. Not really.
At no point would one be making an appeal to a metaphysical force of "luck". Sometimes rare events simply do happen. There is nothing more to it than that.
eudaimonia,
Mark
Rare events are nothing more than physical necessity, i already disproved that physical necessity can account for the creation of the Physical world because by definition the physical world began!
Because the Atheist believes that we are here due to Luck?
PLEASE PROVE ME THAT LUCK EXISTS TO CLAIM THAT WE WERE JUST LUCKY!
The Anthropic Principle doesn't solve the Fine Tuning, sorry.
Because the Atheist believes that we are here due to Luck?
PLEASE PROVE ME THAT LUCK EXISTS TO CLAIM THAT WE WERE JUST LUCKY!
The Anthropic Principle doesn't solve the Fine Tuning, sorry.
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