A finely tuned universe that points to a God.

[Usus Vox Tractus]

Possibly either one or both at some level, but it's just really amazing that something like that happens in our godless, natural universe. Just keep in mind that not everything that is amazing to the human mind must have some intelligent purpose as an explanation. A flock of birds may move in startlingly complex ways, but there is no intelligent designer of flocks.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Is it any less of a wonder that a biologically produced universe creates biology as an inherent, internal, natural process?

 

[Eudaimonist]

If you are interested, I will show you exactly how I arrived at these answers.

Yes, I am, because mathematics is critical to physics. I also want to know why one result means dark matter, another visible matter, and another dark energy.

Also, what sort of education do you have? Do you have any degrees in physics? Biology? Mathematics? Philosophy? Theology?

Is it any less of a wonder that a biologically produced universe creates biology as an inherent, internal, natural process?

Perhaps not. I can understand why that idea would fascinate you.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[DogmaHunter]

Scientists like throwing dice?


What if I could show you a metaversal model where each and every single one of the infinite and growing number of universes are finely tuned or life to appear. They are all fine tuned by extremely specific geometric reasons that predict the dark energy constant and the dark matter ratio, right on the money.

Would that be more preferable to a scientist?

If you had such a robust model with such accurate predictive capability, you would be teaching it at ivy league universities while waving with nobel prizes instead of preaching about it on an irrelevant religious forum.

 

[Michael]

Then bid good-bye to the fine tuning argument.

Inflation (cosmology) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Roger Penrose considered all the possible configurations of the inflaton and gravitational fields. Some of these configurations lead to inflation ... Other configurations lead to a uniform, flat universe directly – without inflation. Obtaining a flat universe is unlikely overall. Penrose's shocking conclusion, though, was that obtaining a flat universe without inflation is much more likely than with inflation – by a factor of 10 to the googol (10 to the 100) power!"[101][102]

Why? Even based on your own cosmology claims, 10 to the 100th power is pretty "fine tuned".

 

[Loudmouth]

Inflation (cosmology) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That has nothing to do with my response.

Why? Even based on your own cosmology claims, 10 to the 100th power is pretty "fine tuned".

What are you on about?

 

[VProud]

Just putting it out there that 10 to the Googol is not 10^100.
It's 10^(10^100).
10^100 is a Googol, not 10 to the Googol.

Not sure why that bugged me so much. xD

 

[Damian79]

A tidbit:

Our galaxy is somewhere near the center of the universe:

Our Galaxy near the centre of concentric spherical shells of galaxies? | John Gideon Hartnett

 

[Kylie]

Funny you talk about a fine tuned universe.

Here in Sydney it's been raining a bit recently, and this afternoon I saw a puddle while out and about. After thinking for a moment, I realised that the water that sat in the little hole was the EXACT shape needed to perfectly fill the hole. This was too great a coincidence to attribute to mere chance. I now know there is an intelligent puddle-designer out there. I've never seen him, and I have no actual evidence for his existence, b ut I know he exists because it is the only logical explanation for the existence of holes which so perfectly fit the water that is deposited into them.

 

[Kylie]

A tidbit:

Our galaxy is somewhere near the center of the universe:

Our Galaxy near the centre of concentric spherical shells of galaxies? | John Gideon Hartnett

Another tidbit:

Every single galaxy that exists can make the same claim.

Are we at the Center of the Universe?

Center of the Universe

 

[Damian79]

Another tidbit:

Every single galaxy that exists can make the same claim.

Are we at the Center of the Universe?

Center of the Universe

I cant see the first link. The second link has nothing on the concentric shells around their galaxies.

 

[Usus Vox Tractus]

If you had such a robust model with such accurate predictive capability, you would be teaching it at ivy league universities while waving with nobel prizes instead of preaching about it on an irrelevant religious forum.

Working to get there while getting some practice before hand. I have found several better approaches thanks to the quality of posters here.


I'm not that excited about being a massive "celebrity"

 

[Usus Vox Tractus]

Funny you talk about a fine tuned universe.

Here in Sydney it's been raining a bit recently, and this afternoon I saw a puddle while out and about. After thinking for a moment, I realised that the water that sat in the little hole was the EXACT shape needed to perfectly fill the hole. This was too great a coincidence to attribute to mere chance. I now know there is an intelligent puddle-designer out there. I've never seen him, and I have no actual evidence for his existence, b ut I know he exists because it is the only logical explanation for the existence of holes which so perfectly fit the water that is deposited into them.

I'm sure you can think of a better strawman.


"Fine tunning" is misleading anyway when the situation is "harmonic tuning": The constants are in harmonic relationship with each other, not "tuned individually"

An example would be the colors pulled out of white light, simultaneously, in order and proper proportion. There are several "fine tuned" relationships that all have to be just right.


Yes I believe the universe was created perfectly by God but not in a mental, "intelligent design", projective, male manner. The perfectly harmonic tuning of constants comes from a biological contractive function. It is fundamentally a female action. The universe is held within the original organism (Mother Father God) that issues it...and develops it.


The universe is a womb developing an embryo.

 

[Usus Vox Tractus]

Harmonic tuning: The Universe: Evidence for Its Fine Tuning

Fine Tuning of the Physical Constants of the Universe Parameter Max. Deviation
Ratio of Electrons protons 1:10^37
Ratio of Electromagnetic Force:Gravity 1:10^40
Expansion Rate of Universe 1:10^55
Mass Density of Universe 1:10^59
Cosmological Constant1:10^120

These numbers represent the maximum deviation from the accepted values, that would either prevent the universe from existing now, not having matter, or be unsuitable for any form of life.






Not one thing "finely tuned" here and there....all of them, exactly right with each other. A harmony of forces.

 

[Kylie]

I'm sure you can think of a better strawman.


"Fine tunning" is misleading anyway when the situation is "harmonic tuning": The constants are in harmonic relationship with each other, not "tuned individually"

An example would be the colors pulled out of white light, simultaneously, in order and proper proportion. There are several "fine tuned" relationships that all have to be just right.


Yes I believe the universe was created perfectly by God but not in a mental, "intelligent design", projective, male manner. The perfectly harmonic tuning of constants comes from a biological contractive function. It is fundamentally a female action. The universe is held within the original organism (Mother Father God) that issues it...and develops it.


The universe is a womb developing an embryo.

If you'd actually bothered to understand what I am saying, it was that the universe was not fine tuned to support the life that would come later. It was that life evolved to be able to survive in the pre-existing conditions. Simply put, life evolved in a way that could survive in the universe because any attempt to evolve in a way that couldn't survive simply would not have survived. All the evidence we have supports this idea. So how is it a straw man?

Seriously, how is this a hard concept to grasp?

And yet you are going on with the universe being an embryo and other stuff that sounds like new age hippy speak.

 

[Kylie]

I cant see the first link. The second link has nothing on the concentric shells around their galaxies.

Irrelevant. It is discussing how the fact that we see all the other galaxies moving away from us doesn't mean that we are the center of the universe.

I'll quote the relevant section for you:

Astronomers and physicists interpret the result that all distant galaxies are flying away from us as evidence for the uniform expansion of the Universe. In this case, any observer, at any location in the Universe, observes the same general motion: that the further a galaxy is from us, the faster its relative velocity with respect to the observer is. The famous (and very illustrative) example of this is to imagine a loaf of raisin bread as it is baking. The raisins in the bread spread away from one another as the loaf rises and expands during the baking. Pick any raisin and pretend you are standing on it (you're very small now!) and measuring the rate at which the other raisins are moving away from you. You will find that, no matter which raisin you choose, all other raisins appear to be moving away from you, with the furthest raisins receding the fastest.​

 

[Damian79]

Irrelevant. It is discussing how the fact that we see all the other galaxies moving away from us doesn't mean that we are the center of the universe.

I'll quote the relevant section for you:

Astronomers and physicists interpret the result that all distant galaxies are flying away from us as evidence for the uniform expansion of the Universe. In this case, any observer, at any location in the Universe, observes the same general motion: that the further a galaxy is from us, the faster its relative velocity with respect to the observer is. The famous (and very illustrative) example of this is to imagine a loaf of raisin bread as it is baking. The raisins in the bread spread away from one another as the loaf rises and expands during the baking. Pick any raisin and pretend you are standing on it (you're very small now!) and measuring the rate at which the other raisins are moving away from you. You will find that, no matter which raisin you choose, all other raisins appear to be moving away from you, with the furthest raisins receding the fastest.​

Actually i believe it is you that is being irrelevant here. This is not about galaxies moving away. It is about the "arc shapes" of clusters of galaxies around our galaxy.

 

[Kylie]

Actually i believe it is you that is being irrelevant here. This is not about galaxies moving away. It is about the "arc shapes" of clusters of galaxies around our galaxy.

And would you care to explain why these concentric rings of galaxies can only be concentric around the center of the universe?

Also, can you provide a non-religious source for this. I'm concerned there is a bias in your source.

 

[Damian79]

And would you care to explain why these concentric rings of galaxies can only be concentric around the center of the universe?

Also, can you provide a non-religious source for this. I'm concerned there is a bias in your source.

Because if it isnt near the center of the universe you would get reverse arcs on one side. As for a non religious source, the images are from a non religious source on a religious website. They are unedited. Make your mind up based on the images.

 

[Kylie]

Because if it isnt near the center of the universe you would get reverse arcs on one side. As for a non religious source, the images are from a non religious source on a religious website. They are unedited. Make your mind up based on the images.

Please support your claim that "if it isnt near the center of the universe you would get reverse arcs on one side". Because it seems to me that you are assuming your conclusion in order to reach your conclusion.

After all, if you look at the wheels on my car, then there are concentric circles on them, but they aren't in the center of my car.

And I'm not disputing the images. I'm disputing your claims about what the images represent. Show me a non-religious, scientific site that claims that these concentric rings are caused by the universe expanding out from a central point.

 

[Damian79]

Please support your claim that "if it isnt near the center of the universe you would get reverse arcs on one side". Because it seems to me that you are assuming your conclusion in order to reach your conclusion.

After all, if you look at the wheels on my car, then there are concentric circles on them, but they aren't in the center of my car.

And I'm not disputing the images. I'm disputing your claims about what the images represent. Show me a non-religious, scientific site that claims that these concentric rings are caused by the universe expanding out from a central point.

That wheels analogy is kind of silly. We are talking about the big bang or proof of galactocentrism(sp?). So we are looking a the center point of an explosion. Do you know what a single explosion in empty space would look like? Unless you are claiming multiple big bangs then obviously that would be a far more complex thing.

As for a non religious scientific site for this, you wont find any, as there is bias from the creationist side there is bias on the "atheist" side as well that doesnt subscribe to the norm. Which is sad really. So really all we can do is look at the data and judge for ourselves.