A Fine Tuned Universe is Evidence for God

[Jazer]

Oh, geez.

Not the tired Laws of Thermodynamics bit...

UUmmm, if you do not want to talk about Science then maybe this is not the forum for you. This is a forum for people who want to talk about Science and how it can relate to Religion.

 

[Jazer]

Personally, the idea Hawking and others came up with (quantum superposition) makes more sense, if only because it avoids the much more complicated, messy task of having to explain a super complex creator.

For Hawking it is to much trouble to try and deal with the complicated, messy task of having to explain a super complex wife. But with marriage and with God most people believe that the relationship is well worth the while and would not want to live without God or their wife (husband).

 

[impblack]

What is the difference between 10 to the 40th power and a billion to the 22 power?

(10^9)^22=10^198

Its meaningless. If you want i'll change it, all right, not 10^40, 10^400. Better?

 

[MoonLancer]

But the chance of it all happening again at random you are talking about one billion to the 22 power. The odds are so high that it is just not possible to repeat without a system or a direct cause. They may find something because they came up with evolution.

Same size sun, same size planet, same size moon. All the same distance, all the same age and so on. I would say no chance at all if your going by random events. Out of 100 known planets NONE of them are anything at all like our earth.

The universe is quit large. So large that using the chances of this planets occurrence in some sort of example for why a god must exist is absurdity to the highest order. The higher the number the more divine the outcome is when the results happen to contain something we can relate to?

and how exactly does one come up with one billion to the 22 power? since such a small part of the universe can be seen how do you know what the probability is of a planet like this?

Also who says that all these factors must be the way they are in order for life to form. Surly these our the factors we adapted to through evolution. But why must other forms of life elsewhere adapt to something exactly the same and not something different ?

 

[MoonLancer]

UUmmm, if you do not want to talk about Science then maybe this is not the forum for you. This is a forum for people who want to talk about Science and how it can relate to Religion.

You sir do not understand science. You are fireing out pratts (point refuted a thousand times) at a startling rate and showing everyone your lack of reason, logic, and science. Many of the arguments your using are outdated even by creationist standards and are apart of creationist lists of arguments not to use because they make creationists look rather silly and ignorant.

its ok though. The lurkers quite wise and will judge you accordingly

 

[Jazer]

how exactly does one come up with one billion to the 22 power?

We are dealing with the "The Rare Earth hypothesis" and I am still trying to verify that number.

 

[Jazer]

You sir do not understand science.

Your guilty of what you accuse me of. How many times do we have to go over this before you learn it? Why is it so difficult for you to understand that you can only judge yourself? Now that you tell me that you do not understand science I can see what the problem is.

Romans 2:1 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.

 

[Jazer]

judge you accordingly

Did you ever hear the story of Jonah & the Whale? We are not responsable for how people respond, I just deliver the message. Someday all will fall into place and make sense. Those who reject God will be without excuse. They will not be able to say "I did not know". Just because you do not understand today does not mean you will not understand at some point in the future.

 

[MoonLancer]

Your guilty of what you accuse me of. How many times do we have to go over this before you learn it? Why is it so difficult for you to understand that you can only judge yourself? Now that you tell me that you do not understand science I can see what the problem is.

Sorry but your just reading from a creationist script or your pasture is. I hope you do look up where the probability comes from. Maybe you will learn a hard but necessary lesson.

 

[MoonLancer]

Did you ever hear the story of Jonah & the Whale? We are not responsable for how people respond, I just deliver the message. Someday all will fall into place and make sense. Those who reject God will be without excuse. They will not be able to say "I did not know". Just because you do not understand today does not mean you will not understand at some point in the future.

Without excuse? here is one. No Evidence and no distinctive factor that could be set aside from any other religion. There are many more. For example if God is all knowing he knows exactly what it will take to convince me of his existence. If he is unwilling or incapable of achieving this it is hardly my fault. Of course giving god more responsibility because of his power and knowledge would be too much of a burden on a theology that thrives self hatred and blame.

This is just a few of the many problems God of the bible suffers from by giving him conflicting goals, actions, and powers.

 

[Jazer]

If he is unwilling or incapable of achieving this it is hardly my fault.

Good luck with that defense when you go before Him. I do not think it will work, but you can give it a try if that is the only defense you have. It is not me you have to convince, it is the God who created you that you have to convince and He knows a lot more about you then you seem to be giving Him credit for.

 

[Freodin]

Good luck with that defense when you go before Him. I do not think it will work, but you can give it a try if that is the only defense you have. It is not me you have to convince, it is the God who created you that you have to convince and He knows a lot more about you then you seem to be giving Him credit for.

If he does indeed exist... he would definitly know more about me than YOU. And he would be a lot more reasonable than his self-proclaimed messengers make him up.

 

[MoonLancer]

Good luck with that defense when you go before Him. I do not think it will work, but you can give it a try if that is the only defense you have. It is not me you have to convince, it is the God who created you that you have to convince and He knows a lot more about you then you seem to be giving Him credit for.

Apparently he doesn't know me well enough ;p

 

[MoonLancer]

If he does indeed exist... he would definitly know more about me than YOU. And he would be a lot more reasonable than his self-proclaimed messengers make him up.

This is quit true. Jazer is mostly just caught up in a human religion that needs to create the problems so later it claims to solve them

 

[Nostromo]

the elements are the same every where in the universe. The laws are all the same everywhere in the universe. There are two evolutionary theorys though. Some people say that if you were to do it all over again everything would turn out different. Other people say if the conditions at the same then the resulting life will turn out the same. This is a issue that evolutionists do not agree on.

There are not two evolutionary theories. What may or may not happen if you restarted the universe is outside the scope of Evolution, it's more to do with Physics and Philosophy.

As far as we can tell at present, the universe is not deterministic due to the nature of the world at the quantum scale. If you could reset a physical system back to exactly how it was at the beginning and run it again, chances are that it wouldn't turn out exactly the same. It's likely it would end up very similar, but not identical. Applying that to the universe over billions of years I think it's unlikely we would see human life appear again if we could do it all again.

 

[Jazer]

This is quit true. Jazer is mostly just caught up in a human religion that needs to create the problems so late it claims to solve them

I was looking for the solution to whatever problem we may have in life and I did find that solution when they told me to read the Bible and pray to ask the Holy Spirit of God to help me understand what I was reading. The Bible is basicly our owners manual to life and when all else fails, then we can read the Bible and turn to God for help or whatever we need. His promise is that He will never leave us or forsake us. We can walk away from Him, but He will not ever walk away from us. Jesus became human so He could know the experance. So now we can know what it means to be a son of God.

Applying that to the universe over billions of years I think it's unlikely we would see human life appear again if we could do it all again.

Perhaps the monkey or the Ninja Turtle would evolve to be the intelligent ones. But humans are the ones that have intelligence and the ability to examine the universe. Why are humans the only ones that evolved with wisdom and understanding?

 

[Jazer]

There are not two evolutionary theories. What may or may not happen if you restarted the universe is outside the scope of Evolution, it's more to do with Physics and Philosophy.

I am not talking about the universe, I am talking about Evolution. If you go back in time to where all you have is bacteria and start all over there are two theorys. One theory is that everything would end up exactly the way it did. The other theory that is more true to Darwinism is that everything would be totally different from the way it is now. With random events it all could have turned out with millions or even billions of end results. This is why it is so easy for people to accept parrelle universe theory.

 

[Nostromo]

I am not talking about the universe, I am talking about Evolution. If you go back in time to where all you have is bacteria and start all over there are two theorys. One theory is that everything would end up exactly the way it did. The other theory that is more true to Darwinism is that everything would be totally different from the way it is now. With random events it all could have turned out with millions or even billions of end results. This is why it is so easy for people to accept parrelle universe theory.

What you're saying is nothing in particular to do with Evolution, it is to do with Physics and whether or not physical processes are deterministic. It could be applied just the same to fluid dynamics, evolution or skiing.

As such there it's not true that there are two theories of Evolution, but two views in the philosophy of Physics about whether physical laws are entirely deterministic or not.

 

[freezerman2000]

I wonder if something happened that caused God to put a curse on His creation; a curse in the form of a withdrawal of a type of sustaining energy that is now causing the universe to run on "batteries".

I don't get what you are saying...when we fell into sin, did God curse us or the entire universe? We are just an infinitesimal speck in the grand scheme of things...pretty inconsequential when you look at the scope of how we relate to the universe.
Why would God curse the entire thing for the misbehavior of one small part of his creation?

 

[AV1611VET]

Now you're begging the question.

It also has to be just right, or we would not have been made in the image and likeness of God.

If Mother Nature chiseled us out of a pile of atoms, then she must have done it with God's blueprints.