A Fine Tuned Universe is Evidence for God

[impblack]

Not if evolution is random. I can not do the math, but I would say it is impossible. Just look at our earth and how much change it has gone through in the last 4.5 billion years. So even if you have everything else identical, you still have to hit an exact point in time. Just like twins are not 100 percent identical. There is variation that takes place during development.

The sun would have to be the same size as our sun and the same age. The earth would have to be the same size and the same distance from the sun. The moon would have to be the same size and the same distance from the earth. The moon is following an exact path as it moves away from the earth that could not be duplicated in a random situation.

Yes, it is very hard (it also can be impossible but we don't know), but if you had enough matter, or infinit matter maybe it could happen.
The same way that when you throw a dice 6 times it is very hard to get 5 times the same number. But it you throw it 1.000.000 times then it is quite probable to get 5 times the same number. We just would have to have almost, if not, infinit matter.

 

[Mr. Pedantic]

That's very true. But what he's saying is that any universe without order would be impossible without. So without God we wouldn't be here. That doesn't contradict your sentence.

It doesn't, true. But it also eliminates the necessity for god, because without him, the universe would still run completely smoothly. As Stephen Hawking said, the universe still does not entail no god, but our scientific understanding is marginalizing the number of places he could 'hide'.

 

[AV1611VET]

But it also eliminates the necessity for God, because without him, the universe would still run completely smoothly.

You mean: '... because without Him, the universe would run down completely smoothly', don't you?

 

[Mr. Pedantic]

No. I don't. What you tried to correct is not a very good statement, because it presupposes purpose. If there is no god, there is no purpose. Also, it is inaccurate because 'running down' would be indistinguishable from 'running'.

And I did not intend the capitalization, either. When you are doing this in future, please do not misrepresent my position by incorrectly capitalizing words.

 

[AV1611VET]

And I did not intend the capitalization, either. When you are doing this in future, please do not misrepresent my position by incorrectly capitalizing words.

That's why I ended my post with an interrogation point, chief --

 

[Jazer]

But it you throw it 1.000.000 times then it is quite probable to get 5 times the same number.

But the chance of it all happening again at random you are talking about one billion to the 22 power. The odds are so high that it is just not possible to repeat without a system or a direct cause. They may find something because they came up with evolution.

Same size sun, same size planet, same size moon. All the same distance, all the same age and so on. I would say no chance at all if your going by random events. Out of 100 known planets NONE of them are anything at all like our earth.

 

[Non sequitur]

But the chance of it all happening again at random you are talking about one billion to the 22 power. The odds are so high that it is just not possible to repeat without a system or a direct cause. They may find something because they came up with evolution.

Same size sun, same size planet, same size moon. All the same distance, all the same age and so on. I would say no chance at all if your going by random events. Out of 100 known planets NONE of them are anything at all like our earth.

And despite all remaining useless space and all these other useless planets in the entire universe... this little rock was made just for us.

Awe.

 

[Mr. Pedantic]

But the chance of it all happening again at random you are talking about one billion to the 22 power. The odds are so high that it is just not possible to repeat without a system or a direct cause. They may find something because they came up with evolution.

Same size sun, same size planet, same size moon. All the same distance, all the same age and so on. I would say no chance at all if your going by random events. Out of 100 known planets NONE of them are anything at all like our earth.

Seriously. Like the puddle on the ground thinking the dip in the pavement were made solely for its existence alone.

 

[Jazer]

Please provide a citation for these "Laws of Science" that require a "first cause".

That would be the first law.

• [FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial]The First Law of Thermodynamics deals with Conservation of Energy. It states that the total supply of energy within the Universe is not now being created or destroyed.[/FONT]
• [FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial]The Second Law of Thermodynamics is the Law of Energy Decay. It states that the Universe's total supply of USEFUL energy is decreasing toward zero.[/FONT]

The Second Law (Law of Energy Decay) states that every system left to its own devices always tends to move from order to disorder, its energy tending to be transformed into lower levels of availability, finally reaching the state of complete randomness and unavailability for further work.

 

[Non sequitur]

That would be the first law.

• [FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial]The First Law of Thermodynamics deals with Conservation of Energy. It states that the total supply of energy within the Universe is not now being created or destroyed.[/FONT]
• [FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial]The Second Law of Thermodynamics is the Law of Energy Decay. It states that the Universe's total supply of USEFUL energy is decreasing toward zero.[/FONT]

The Second Law (Law of Energy Decay) states that every system left to its own devices always tends to move from order to disorder, its energy tending to be transformed into lower levels of availability, finally reaching the state of complete randomness and unavailability for further work.

Oh, geez.

Not the tired Laws of Thermodynamics bit...

 

[Greg1234]

Yes, it is very hard (it also can be impossible but we don't know), but if you had enough matter, or infinit matter maybe it could happen.
The same way that when you throw a dice 6 times it is very hard to get 5 times the same number. But it you throw it 1.000.000 times then it is quite probable to get 5 times the same number. We just would have to have almost, if not, infinit matter.

Somatic cells throw dice in mitosis, nothing there. Luckily we have tests now.

 

[Nostromo]

Yet there is evidence that life would be fairly consistant anywhere in the universe.

There is?

 

[roach]

The problem is this takes you to the next step. Evolution is a part of nature and it is a part of the creation. According to the Laws of Science your First Cause CAN NOT be a part of the Universe. Next you have to deal with an extreamly fine tuned universe. The best explaination is that God or an Intelligent Designer Created the Universe. The First Cause can not be a part of nature. The Creator has to be outside of time and space. Evolution did not create the cosmos and evolution did not fine tune the Universe. To date Science has no First Cause other then God or an Intelligent Designer.

If you want to eliminate God, then you will need another Darwin to come along with a explaination on how the universe fine tunes itself. The problem is all the current theorys require things to be random. A fine tuned universe is just the opposite of random. It requires a standard. A very delicate balanced standard.

I'm certain (though I haven't read any previous posts) all this has been/will be attacked and torn apart by others. I'm a little disappointed that this "fine-tuning" argument still comes up because it's yet another god-of-the-gaps arguments. Personally, the idea Hawking and others came up with (quantum superposition) makes more sense, if only because it avoids the much more complicated, messy task of having to explain a super complex creator.

 

[AV1611VET]

And despite all remaining useless space and all these other useless planets in the entire universe...

Useless to whom? us?

Do you think we are the only ones in the universe that eat, drink and be merry?

this little rock was made just for us.

The earth was created for our habitation, yes.

Awe.

Awe is right. I like to call the earth 'geoprominent', meaning it was the very first thing that came into existence that had mass.

Put another way, God created the earth, then created the universe around it.

 

[AV1611VET]

Seriously. Like the puddle on the ground thinking the dip in the pavement were made solely for its existence alone.

That analogy has a flaw in it.

We are created in the image and likeness of God; so that dip in the pavement has to be just right to keep us alive anthropically.

 

[impblack]

But the chance of it all happening again at random you are talking about one billion to the 22 power.

What if you had infinit planets? Or 10^40 planets in the universe? Wouldn't it be possible? I'm saying numbers according to the probability that you said, not real numbers, just hipothetical situations. Whatever probability you say, i can say "what if there were that number of planets?". Hypothetically, you could always have a planet just like earth, you just need to have a suficient number of planets.

Sorry Greg1234 i didn't get your point. If you could explain it to me a little better, please.

Put another way, God created the earth, then created the universe around it.

You're against evolution. You're against the actual big bang theory and the fact that the universe is more than 10 billions years older then the earth, which is suported by physical theories that are suported by many other physical theories that...do you believe in any physics or science in general?

 

[variant]

To have a fine tuneing argument we must first know that the universe can be tuned, and we must know how it could be tuned.

If we assume the first we are just guessing and if we assume the second is "by god" we are begging the question.

Typical religious argument, wild assumptions and logical fallacies.

 

[Mr. Pedantic]

That analogy has a flaw in it.

We are created in the image and likeness of God; so that dip in the pavement has to be just right to keep us alive anthropically.

Now you're begging the question.

 

[Jazer]

There is?

the elements are the same every where in the universe. The laws are all the same everywhere in the universe. There are two evolutionary theorys though. Some people say that if you were to do it all over again everything would turn out different. Other people say if the conditions at the same then the resulting life will turn out the same. This is a issue that evolutionists do not agree on.

 

[Jazer]

one billion to the 22 power.What if you had infinit planets? Or 10^40 planets in the universe?

What is the difference between 10 to the 40th power and a billion to the 22 power?