A few verses seem to challenge reformed; please help

[orthedoxy]

 

[Lockheed]

Wouldn’t you say those who” were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit” resisted Grace? Therefore Grace is resistible?

We all resist the general revelation and Law of God, but when God acts graciously toward an individual He doesn't simply sorta act graciously... He regenerates and saves them. Since grace is unmerited (even de-merited) favor, it goes without saying that we're "resistant", yet God's grace doesn't stop at our resistance He gives us a new heart and puts His Spirit in us. (Eze 36:25)

Like the dead, dry bones of Eze 37, God rasies us to life, but doesn't leave us there, He sends His Spirit in us to make us truly alive, born-again. Thus, as Romans 8 states those whom God predestines He calls, those He calls He justifies and those He justifies He glorifies.

Would you say no one understand, people are depraved and God has to open peoples eyes before they can understand? If so these peoples eyes were open and they rejected Gods Grace wouldn’t you say?

Romans 8:7-9 explains that those who do not have the Spirit indwelling cannot obey God and are unable to please God, likewise 1 Cor 2:14 says that natural man "does not accept the things of the Spirit of God". God Himself states in Romans 3 that "no one understands... there are none that seek after God".

So this is the condition of those who are "dead in sin". Christ calls them "slaves to sin".

Romans 1, however, tells us that through general revelation men can understand somewhat the things of God. Thus, those who are among the church can perhaps glean even some spiritual concepts though they cannot truly understand them. Like the unprepared soils in the parable something always causes them to be fruitless and die.

All soils received the same seed and they grew to some extent... but in the end only the one that produced fruit was that which was "good soil" and "good soil" can only be that which has been prepare by the sower.

Likewise, Romans 9 tells us that some "pots" are made for common use and others for noble. It is God who is the Potter and it is the Potter who has the freedom to make the pots for whatever use He chooses.

Keep in mind the story of Saul, who knew the Law, knew the ceremonies and yet denied God and tried to do things his own way, just like Cain and Esau. Yet though these individuals were related to the people of God and for a time even appeared to be part of the family of God, they neither truly knew God nor worshiped Him in "spirit and in truth". Unlike Lydia who heard the Gospel as preached by Paul and to whom "God opened her heart to respond."

You might ask if she had the option to respond or not respond, but the point we make is that for those whom God has chosen and whom He gives His Spirit to (in order to save them) will be saved. But that doesn't mean that others cannot "taste" or even "partake" of the heavenly gift and still fall away. Biblical history is replete with people who were in the community of God and yet fell away.

Yes, their eyes were opened to an extent, but God's reasons for that were not to save them, but to show how gracious He is to those whom He saves.

 

[Jon_]

What does partake mean?
How does one taste without receives?
Wouldn’t you say those who” were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit” resisted Grace? Therefore Grace is resistible?

Would you say no one understand, people are depraved and God has to open peoples eyes before they can understand? If so these peoples eyes were open and they rejected Gods Grace wouldn’t you say?

Was Adams salvation predestined before the earth if so did he lose his eternal life at some point?

Believers could resist God and sin why can’t they reject God?

First, I believe you have already been warned about participating in discussions in this forum. Either you are acting out of ignorance, or defiance. Either way, consider this a stern rebuke for violating the rules of the forums. One of the reasons I stopped posting in the General Theology forum and others was to get away from contentious debates. I'm not interested in arguing with someone that has obviously made up his or her mind about how he or she interprets Scripture. My heart, my passion, is not for you. Instead, I seek to encourage my fellow Reformed believers, and to spread the doctrine of the Reformation to willing spirits. You have not shown any willingness to receive the truth of our doctrine; therefore, I shall leave that order of discussion to my more qualified--and more patient--brethren (and "sistren" ).

 

[Lockheed]

Eh, answer the fellow first, then browbeat him.

 

[Jon_]

Eh, answer the fellow first, then browbeat him.

Nope. And I've already outlined why.

 

[Lockheed]

You've been here longer than I and know these folks better.

 

[kevken]

Verse 9 of this chapter seems to be helpful..."9But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany salvation, though we speak in this manner."

It seems that Paul is not describing one who is elect because he is "confident of better things you (the elect), things that accompany salvation."

The "though we speak in this manner" would seem to be covenental language that applies to all who are in the covenent (and these would clearly include those who are not elect). (See Romans 11 concerning the olive tree)

 

[tigersnare]

I would just like to remind all involved that this is not a debate forum, it is a fellowship forum. Any member who is not of the Reformed persuasion who debates here is breaking the rules of this forum.

You may debate this in General Theology. The OP asked a question, only Reformed members may answer it. From this point forward, posts that break the rules of this forum will be deleted.

Thanks for taking care of us!

 

[tigersnare]

Without meaning to, I think you hit the nail on the head. The people who the author of Hebrews refers to in this passage have indeed had a taste of the heavenly gift, but they are false converts and have not been regenerated by God.

I agree with this viewpoint as well. There are many in our local congregations and within my college ministry who are in fact tasting the grace and gifts of God through the believers around them. But surely some of them are not converted.

 

[Wilfred of Ivanhoe]

Verse 9 of this chapter seems to be helpful..."9But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany salvation, though we speak in this manner."

It seems that Paul is not describing one who is elect because he is "confident of better things you (the elect), things that accompany salvation."

The "though we speak in this manner" would seem to be covenental language that applies to all who are in the covenent (and these would clearly include those who are not elect). (See Romans 11 concerning the olive tree)

Excellent point. I re-listened to my own minister's sermon on this text and he reminded us to look ahead and note the pattern of how the writer at first brings the listerns low, and then comes alongside and conforts them. You will see the same pattern in the parallel passage in Hebrews 10:26

 

[cygnusx1]

well i cant debate it so i will just say that it is my view. It doesnt say this directly but to me it says that we can fall away from Grace. I think it is very difficult but possible. Ill leave it at that.

yes the text does appear to say that , and if it were not for very good reasons you would find all Christians accepting that premise .
However , because there are so many scriptures that explicitly teach that God does the saving from start to finish , that it is a work of God and that none can be lost who are elect , then the answer can only be found with a much more diligent study.

If a man can fall away from God's Elective Love then all may fall , and there are no guarantees that any will reach heaven , much less stay there once they have arrived.

Greetings Cygnus