A Few Things to Discuss (A Bit Long)

[BobRyan]

I said earlier that I thought that might have been the Mormons, etc, and am pretty sure it is or was now, etc...

But, in general, SDA is just too strict for me, if you openly admit your sins, and you don't do away with them or overcome them quickly at some point, it has been my personal experience that they will shun you and push you out of their groups and/or organization, etc, and God forbid you have periods of backsliding at some points, and your honest about it or that also, etc, cause they really shun you and push you out then, etc... Just been my own experience, etc...

were you an SDA at one time? Are you saying that some local congregation did that to a visitor??

I have never seen a case where a member says "I am struggling with X or Y" and the church would not help and pray for them.

But if a member says "I refuse to accept that X or Y as taught by the church is ok for me personally" then in some rare cases they take some sort of action.

And all the documents that speak to how that would be done ideally -- like the Adventist Church manual - are available online - so it is not like some sort of secret code or anything. Most congregations are not all that strict about following discipline as the manual suggests so the manual is the most 100% compliant version that I have seen -- churches tend to be more lax in general.

But for visitors it is pretty much wide open.

 

[Neogaia777]

were you an SDA at one time? Are you saying that some local congregation did that to a visitor??

I have never seen a case where a member says "I am struggling with X or Y" and the church would not help and pray for them.

But if a member says "I refuse to accept that X or Y as taught by the church is ok for me personally" then in some rare cases they take some sort of action.

And all the documents that speak to how that would be done ideally -- like the Adventist Church manual - are available online - so it is not like some sort of secret code or anything. Most congregations are not all that strict about following discipline as the manual suggests so the manual is the most 100% compliant version that I have seen -- churches tend to be more lax in general.

But for visitors it is pretty much wide open.

Look, this has not only been my experience at SDA churches, but just about every church I have tried to go to and belong to or be a part of in my area, it's like they already knew about me or heard about my coming there ahead of time before I was coming, etc, and then I think purposely did some things on purpose to get rid of me or make me leave or push me out, etc, I've tried about 10 to 12 different ones in my area, and it's like they all knew or heard about me, etc, and they all made it very clear that they did not want me there and that I was most certainly not welcome there, etc, very clear, etc, so, I gave up on it, etc, and now just keep to myself for the most part, but talk to others about my beliefs and/or God when and where I can or when I feel the opportunity presents itself, etc, but other than that, the only place I've really found where I can share my beliefs and/or talk about them, etc, is mainly on here mainly, I study on my own, and watch or listen to some preaching or bible teaching programs on the tv or radio, but other than, churches in my area have made it very, very clear that I in particular and personally is not welcome there, etc, and they made that pretty dang obvious and clear, etc, like they knew and/or heard about me or knew I was coming, etc, so I don't have a church home right now or anymore, etc...

And I even tried to avoid the more strict ones, thinking that the others would be more open and accepting, etc, but that's the exact opposite of what I found, etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Look, this has not only been my experience at SDA churches, but just about every church I have tried to go to and belong to or be a part of in my area, it's like they already knew about me or heard about my coming there ahead of time before I was coming, etc, and then I think purposely did some things on purpose to get rid of me or make me leave or push me out, etc, I've tried about 10 to 12 different ones in my area, and it's like they all knew or heard about me, etc, and they all made it very clear that they did not want me there and that I was most certainly not welcome there, etc, very clear, etc, so, I gave up on it, etc, and now just keep to myself for the most part, but talk to others about my beliefs and/or God when and where I can or when I feel the opportunity presents itself, etc, but other than that, the only place I've really found where I can share my beliefs and/or talk about them, etc, is mainly on here mainly, I study on my own, and watch or listen to some preaching or bible teaching programs on the tv or radio, but other than, churches in my area have it very, very clear that I in particular and personally is not welcome, etc, and they made that pretty dang obvious and clear, etc, like they knew and/or heard about me or knew I was coming, etc, so I don't have a church home right now or anymore, etc...

And I even tried to avoid the more strict ones, thinking that the others would be more open and accepting, etc, but that's the exact opposite of what I found, etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!

And if it was not they themselves who "knew", etc, it was the spirit (or spirits) within them that "knew", etc, and that made it abundantly clear that I was just not ever welcome there, etc, anymore, etc...

So, I go it on my own, on my own but not alone...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Look, this has not only been my experience at SDA churches, but just about every church I have tried to go to and belong to or be a part of in my area, it's like they already knew about me or heard about my coming there ahead of time before I was coming, etc, and then I think purposely did some things on purpose to get rid of me or make me leave or push me out, etc, I've tried about 10 to 12 different ones in my area, and it's like they all knew or heard about me, etc, and they all made it very clear that they did not want me there and that I was most certainly not welcome there, etc, very clear, etc, so, I gave up on it, etc, and now just keep to myself for the most part, but talk to others about my beliefs and/or God when and where I can or when I feel the opportunity presents itself, etc, but other than that, the only place I've really found where I can share my beliefs and/or talk about them, etc, is mainly on here mainly, I study on my own, and watch or listen to some preaching or bible teaching programs on the tv or radio, but other than, churches in my area have it very, very clear that I in particular and personally is not welcome, etc, and they made that pretty dang obvious and clear, etc, like they knew and/or heard about me or knew I was coming, etc, so I don't have a church home right now or anymore, etc...

And I even tried to avoid the more strict ones, thinking that the others would be more open and accepting, etc, but that's the exact opposite of what I found, etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!

And if it was not they themselves who "knew", etc, it was the spirit (or spirits) within them that "knew", etc, and that made it abundantly clear that I was just not ever welcome there, etc, anymore, etc...

So, I go it on my own, on my own but not alone...

God Bless!

Oh, and the church I started in I can never go back to now either, etc...

God Bless!

 

[CaspianSails]

The SDA Church

This is something that I've not been able to understand personally. Why do many people consider SDA to be a cult? I grew up in the church and the beliefs are different, though many people have different beliefs hence why we have so many different denominations.

I think the primary reason is the origin of the SDA. Followed by Ellen Whites writings. The belief that they have been given superior knowledge not made available to others. The control issues in the past, not sure if they persist. Their Bible which incorporates their doctrine into it as the Word of God. The fact that the writings of church leaders have been used as superior knowledge to the scripture.

 

[BobRyan]

I said earlier that I thought that might have been the Mormons, etc, and am pretty sure it is or was now, etc...

But, in general, SDA is just too strict for me, if you openly admit your sins, and you don't do away with them or overcome them quickly at some point, it has been my personal experience that they will shun you and push you out of their groups and/or organization, etc, and God forbid you have periods of backsliding at some points, and your honest about it or that also, etc, cause they really shun you and push you out then, etc... Just been my own experience, etc...

were you an SDA at one time? Are you saying that some local congregation did that to a visitor??

I have never seen a case where a member says "I am struggling with X or Y" and the church would not help and pray for them.

But if a member says "I refuse to accept that X or Y as taught by the church is ok for me personally" then in some rare cases they take some sort of action.

And all the documents that speak to how that would be done ideally -- like the Adventist Church manual - are available online - so it is not like some sort of secret code or anything. Most congregations are not all that strict about following discipline as the manual suggests so the manual is the most 100% compliant version that I have seen -- churches tend to be more lax in general.

But for visitors it is pretty much wide open.

Look, this has not only been my experience at SDA churches, but just about every church I have tried to go to and belong to or be a part of in my area, it's like they already knew about me or heard about my coming there ahead of time before I was coming, etc, and then I think purposely did some things on purpose to get rid of me or make me leave or push me out, etc,

wow!!! I have been going to the SDA church for many decades now in a dozen different states and have never seen that. You have a pretty interesting history -- I have to admit.

I've tried about 10 to 12 different ones in my area, and it's like they all knew or heard about me, etc, and they all made it very clear that they did not want me there and that I was most certainly not welcome there, etc, very clear, etc,

wow again - because it's hard to find a city that has 12 SDA churches - there are a few though

I have to assume you have found a local community church or something that does share your doctrinal beliefs.

the only place I've really found where I can share my beliefs and/or talk about them, etc, is mainly on here mainly,

Well glad you are here to share your beliefs.. out of curiosity - where can I go on this forum to see your beliefs?

 

[Neogaia777]

were you an SDA at one time? Are you saying that some local congregation did that to a visitor??

I have never seen a case where a member says "I am struggling with X or Y" and the church would not help and pray for them.

But if a member says "I refuse to accept that X or Y as taught by the church is ok for me personally" then in some rare cases they take some sort of action.

And all the documents that speak to how that would be done ideally -- like the Adventist Church manual - are available online - so it is not like some sort of secret code or anything. Most congregations are not all that strict about following discipline as the manual suggests so the manual is the most 100% compliant version that I have seen -- churches tend to be more lax in general.

But for visitors it is pretty much wide open.



wow!!! I have been going to the SDA church for many decades now in a dozen different states and have never seen that. You have a pretty interesting history -- I have to admit.



wow again - because it's hard to find a city that has 12 SDA churches - there are a few though

I have to assume you have found a local community church or something that does share your doctrinal beliefs.



Well glad you are here to share your beliefs.. out of curiosity - where can I go on this forum to see your beliefs?

Not 10 or 12 SDA churches, you must have misread my post, I've only been to one SDA church and only once, but had the same experience there as I did in the other 11 churches I tried, but I do have a mental disorder/disability that makes me think people somehow knew about me, and are then talking about me specifically also, that's what also makes it hard for me to go to church, any church now also, etc, my mental health issues, etc...

But, like I said, if not them, then a spirit in them or with them I think "knew" at least anyway, but then again, that could just be me also, etc...

But I did feel like I was being pushed out, etc... If not by the person or people themselves, by the spirit or spirits in them, etc...

I've posted a lot on here, but I think if you highlight mine or a persons name, you can click on their posts or see their posts somehow maybe...?

Oh, and I used to be a JW, a long time ago now... Can't go back to that now, even if I wanted to, which I don't , etc... Lot's of conflicting beliefs and ideas now, etc...

God Bless!

 

[BobRyan]

Not 10 or 12 SDA churches, you must have misread my post, I've only been to one SDA church and only once, but had the same experience there as I did in the other 11 churches I tried, but I do have a mental disorder/disability that makes me think people somehow knew about me, and are then talking about me specifically also, that's what also makes it hard for me to go to church, any church now also, etc, my mental health issues, etc...

But, like I said, if not them, then a spirit in them or with them I think "knew" at least anyway, but then again, that could just be me also, etc...

That explains it. I am sorry to hear about that and will add your situation to my prayer list. May God bless you.

 

[Neogaia777]

That explains it. I am sorry to hear about that and will add your situation to my prayer list. May God bless you.

Thanks.

God Bless!

 

[Olmhinlu]

The SDA Church

This is something that I've not been able to understand personally. Why do many people consider SDA to be a cult? I grew up in the church and the beliefs are different, though many people have different beliefs hence why we have so many different denominations.

Although I do still associate heavily with the SDA and I also consider myself to be non-denominational. The reason being that there are something in the church that I don't agree with. One of them being the Investigative Judgment with does conflict with the Bible, and if it conflicts with the Bible, I toss it.

Ellen G. White

Another matter regarding the SDA church I've heard from outside sources it people criticizing Ellen G. White for plagiarism in books like The Great Controversy. She openly admits to borrowing from other authors, Mrs. White never tried to hide that fact. Mrs. White said she did this because they said what she was trying to better than she was able.

Another thing that irks me is judging these events by modern standards. If you're going to judge something like this, then it needs to be done in the by the standards of the time in which it happened. Now speaking of the time in which it happened, this form of literary borrowing wasn't uncommon in her day and not typically frowned upon unless someone tried to pass it off as original work, which she didn't.

Drinking Alcohol

Another is the belief that it's a sin to drink alcohol at all. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying that modern Christians should drink. However I believe this matter should be taken into context from the time it was written. Is it a sin to drink, personally I don't believe it is.

Ephesians 5:18 (KJV) And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit

If it were a sin to drink at all, would the Bible not simply say 'Do not drink'. Got also created wine at the wedding at his mother's request. Now there is still a debate within the religious community where people practically trip over themselves trying to say that it was non-alcoholic wine, or grape juice. Again, I don't believe this.

I don't think the people who wrote the Bible were ignorant to the difference between the two, and I doubt they would have left something like that vague or ambiguous. If it was grape juice I believe they would have said grape juice. I think Jesus created wine, and he drank wine. The difference being he never became drunk or even got a buzz.

This is where the context comes in. The Bible obviously wasn't written in modern times. In the day and age that Jesus lived, most nearby rivers and running water sources were used as sewage disposal systems. Inside cities was the worst. This meant that drinking water could turn out to be a very lethal gamble with all the contaminants in it, and Jesus didn't have the option to run down to the Dollar Store and grab a 24-pack of Dasani Water.

Thus I believe he, like a lot of lower class people, drank cheap wine which probably had a low alcohol content. Again people might try to counter this view by saying that alcohol is addictive and dangerous, well, so is over eating, extreme sports adrenaline junkies and a whole host of other things. Anything taken to excess can be dangerous and potentially addictive depending on how the person reacts to it.

Personally I believe the church's exceptionally condemning view of alcohol is a holdover from prohibition back in the 1920s. So to sum this up before I type a book on the subject, I believe Jesus drank alcoholic wine but never got drunk because drinking water in his day wasn't always a good idea. In modern times with such easy access to fresh and clean water, modern Christians have no need to drink, and as it can be addictive it's best not to play with fire.

I don't know anything about SDA's - what are the distinctives?

Regarding alcohol - I think a prudent position would be that it is not a sin, but that drunkenness is currently normalised in the Western world to such an extent that we, as a Church, so as to avoid the appearance of impropriety, and to not be a stumbling block to others, elect to abstain.

A few thoughts, which are strictly my opinions:
- At the Wedding at Cana it was noted that usually bad wine is served last, presumably because folks would be socially lubricated by then.
- The parable of new wines and old wineskins features old wineskins bursting, presumably because the skin was stiff and the new wine was fermenting and expanding.

I don't drink and don't plan to so I don't have a horse in this race, but I think we should preach the truth.

PS The post saying that Jesus' blood couldn't be wine begged the question i.e. alcoholic wine is corrupt, Jesus blood was wine, Jesus blood can't be corrupt, therefore Jesus blood couldn't have been alcoholic wine.

 

[Bob Crowley]

I'm no expert on the Seventh Day Adventists, but I'll say this -

1. I don't think Ellen G. White was a prophet. If anything she sowed a certain amount of "holier than thou" division.

2. The Saturday sabbath is a reversion to the Old Testament. If you're going to insist on maintaining the OT law, you have to keep to all of it, as Saint Paul pointed out. You can't pick and choose the bits you want. Christ is the "NEW COVENANT". The church began meeting on Sundays very early on, in recognition of the fact it was the day of the week on which Christ rose from the dead viz. "a new beginning". It also separated the church from Judaism, particularly as the Jews started to get on the nose of the Romans, and there were more Gentile converts.

When did the Christian church switch the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday?

The above linked article includes the line -

"By the end of the first century, Sunday worship was the norm."

3. Christ drank wine, and turned the water into wine at the wedding at Cana. It was also the best wine the hosts had ever tasted. They didn't have the ability to keep untreated grape juice back then, so they fermented it into wine, using a process built into nature by God, and as the creed says of Christ, "Through Him all things were made", including the ability to ferment wine and other beverages.

Christ was accused by His enemies of being a "glutton and a wine bibber".

The key to alcohol usage is moderation, just like it is in driving a car, eating, the use of money, and legitimate sexual behaviour.

Got Wine?

4. I'm not familiar with the alleged doctrine of "soul sleep". But I claim that the night my own father died, he appeared in my room. He apologised for the way he'd treated me for 20 years, we talked and argued, and at the end he gave this absolutely terrifying scream and then just disappeared. Something was coming for him. So I differ with soul sleep and agree with the Catholic catechism that personal (or particular ) judgement takes place immediately after death.

The final judgement is a different kettle of fish, in which (Paragraph 1039)

"In the presence of Christ, who is Truth itself, the truth of each man's relationship with God will be laid bare. The Last Judgement will reveal even to its furthest consequences the good each person has done or failed to do during his earthly life:"

4. That said, my limited experience of SDA Christians is that they're as "Christian" as the rest of us in the general and moral sense. A few years ago, I was involved with a government project which drew a number of charitable groups together, including ADRA which is the local SDA charity over here in Australia. The people I met there were just as Christian as I was, and possibly even more so in private life. I also did a short term SDA run physical exercise class a few years ago and the organisers were christian as far as I could tell.

I do get a bit annoyed with their entrenched anti-Catholicism. They'll find out on the day they die that a lot of it was an outright lie.

 

[BobRyan]

I don't know anything about SDA's - what are the distinctives?

First the similarities

1. Saved by grace through faith Eph 2:8-11
2. Sola scriptura testing of all doctrine and practice. Acts 17:11 Mark 7:6-13
3. Trinity Deut 6:4 Matt 28:19
4. Literal death burial and resurrection of Christ and ascension into heaven
5. New Covenant - Jer 31:31-34, Hebrews 8:6-12
6. 66 books of the Bible - the inspired Word of God - scripture OT + NT
7. Ten commandments included in the moral law of God "written on the heart" under the New Covenant
8. Literal heaven
9. Literal lake of fire in Rev 20
10. Literal new Earth
11. Literal second coming - Matt 24, Rev 19, 1 Thess 4.
12. Literal Angels
13. God is creator of all the universe (One God in three persons) John 14:1-5


Some differences -
1. no smoking or "recreational" drugs or drinking alcohol 1 Cor 6
2. Soul sleep: but only the kind seen in 1 Thess 4:13-18 John 11
3. No eating unclean foods Lev 11
4. Christ as our High Priest in Heaven Heb 8:1-6 "the main point"
5. Sanctuary in heaven Hebrews 8 and 9
6. Mission and focus on the 3 angels messages Rev 14
7. Day for year rule for apocalyptic prophecy - as in Dan 9 -- seventy weeks of years.
8. Spiritual gifts for the church today - 1 Cor 12, and Eph 4. Including prophecy (but it is rare)
9. Ten commandments can not be edited
9B -- so then Sabbath day is unchanged and is the Lord's day Isaiah 58:13, Mark 2:28 and kept for all eternity after the cross in New Earth Is 66:23
10. The judgment in Dan 7 and Romans 2, and 2 Cor 5:10 happens before the second coming as Rev 14:6-7 also points out, and at the end "judgment is passed in favor of the saints" Dan 7:22
11 the Rev 15:8 text refers to the sanctuary in heaven being shut down just prior to the Rev 16 seven last plagues.
12 Literal resurrection at second coming 1 Thess 4 (resurrection of saints) and then at the end of 1000 years in Rev 20 - resurrection of the wicked.

Regarding alcohol - I think a prudent position would be that it is not a sin, but that drunkenness is currently normalised in the Western world to such an extent that we, as a Church, so as to avoid the appearance of impropriety, and to not be a stumbling block to others, elect to abstain.

A few thoughts, which are strictly my opinions:
- At the Wedding at Cana it was noted that usually bad wine is served last, presumably because folks would be socially lubricated by then.
- The parable of new wines and old wineskins features old wineskins bursting, presumably because the skin was stiff and the new wine was fermenting and expanding.

I don't drink and don't plan to so I don't have a horse in this race, but I think we should preach the truth.

PS The post saying that Jesus' blood couldn't be wine begged the question i.e. alcoholic wine is corrupt, Jesus blood was wine, Jesus blood can't be corrupt, therefore Jesus blood couldn't have been alcoholic wine.

1. The word for "wine" is our word for "grape beverage" - context determines if it is fermented or not.
2. Wedding feast at Canan - preserving fresh grape juice was the big challenge - the high goal. Jesus produced fresh juice. Even drinking the older juice that had preservatives would over time dull the senses to the juice.
3. Old wineskins were expanded from the old wine that rots over time producing gases that expand.
4. Passover wine is not fermented because passover is part of the feast of unleavened bread and no yeast is allowed - not even wine yeast that is used in making wine vs rotten juice.

 

[Bob Crowley]

1. The word for "wine" is our word for "grape beverage" - context determines if it is fermented or not.
2. Wedding feast at Canan - preserving fresh grape juice was the big challenge - the high goal. Jesus produced fresh juice. Even drinking the older juice that had preservatives would over time dull the senses to the juice.
3. Old wineskins were expanded from the old wine that rots over time producing gases that expand.
4. Passover wine is not fermented because passover is part of the feast of unleavened bread and no yeast is allowed - not even wine yeast that is used in making wine vs rotten juice.

I'm afraid you're incorrect. According to this Jewish source, the Jews make a distinct difference between the unleavened bread and fermented wine - viz.

"Of the hundreds of species of yeast, the Passover prohibition only applies to yeast which is a product of one of the following five grains: wheat, barley, oat, spelt, or rye. Yeast which is the product of grapes, or its sugars, is not considered chametz (leavened food)."

Why is it permitted to drink wine on Passover when it is fermented with yeast?

Apparently they don't just drink wine at the Passover - they drink four cups of wine, all fermented.

Why four cups of wine by the seder?

Forget the grape juice. Christ created wine for the wedding, and He drank wine.

 

[BobRyan]

When did the Christian church switch the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday?
The above linked article includes the line -
"By the end of the first century, Sunday worship was the norm."

since you bring this up with that ChristianityToday article.

God's Word cannot be edited - is one of the sort-of-distinctive teachings that the SDA church has due to sola-scriptura testing.

Acts 17:11 "they studied the scriptures daily to see IF those things spoken to them by the Apostle Paul - was SO" -

Gal 1
6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we (Apostles), or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

===================================================
Catholic sources

''The [Roman Catholic] Church changed the observance of the Sabbath to Sunday by right of the divine, infallible authority given to her by her founder, Jesus Christ. The Protestant claiming the Bible to be the only guide of faith, has no warrant for observing Sunday. In this matter the Seventh-day Adventist is the only consistent Protestant.'' The Catholic Universe Bulletin, August 14, 1942, p. 4.

"Perhaps the boldest thing, the most revolutionary change the Church ever did, happened in the first century. The holy day, the Sabbath, was changed from Saturday to Sunday. "The Day of the Lord" (dies Dominica) was chosen, not from any directions noted in the Scriptures, but from the Church's sense of its own power. The day of resurrection, the day of Pentecost, fifty days later, came on the first day of the week. So this would be the new Sabbath. People who think that the Scriptures should be the sole authority, should logically become 7th Day Adventists, and keep Saturday holy." Sentinel, Pastor's page, Saint Catherine Catholic Church, Algonac, Michigan, May 21, 1995

“If Protestants would follow the Bible, they would worship God on the Sabbath Day. In keeping the Sunday they are following a law of the Catholic Church.” Albert Smith, Chancellor of the Archdiocese of Baltimore, replying for the Cardinal, in a letter dated February 10, 1920.

“Tradition, not Scripture, is the rock on which the church of Jesus Christ is built.” Adrien Nampon, Catholic Doctrine as Defined by the Council of Trent, p. 157

"The Pope is of so great authority and power that he can modify, explain, or interpret even divine law". The pope can modify divine law, since his power is not of man, but of God, and he acts a vicegerent of God upon earth" Lucius Ferraris, Prompta Bibliotheca, art. Papa, II, Vol. VI, p. 29.

"When St. Paul repudiated the works of the law, he was not thinking of the Ten Commandments, which are as unchangeable as God Himself is, which God could not change and still remain the infinitely holy God."-Our Sunday Visitor, Oct. 7, I951.

"If we consulted the Bible only, we should still have to keep holy the Sabbath Day, that is, Saturday, with the Jews, instead of Sunday; ..." -- A Course in Religion for Catholic High Schools and Academies, by Rev. John Laux M.A., Benzinger Brothers, 1936 edition, Part 1.

"Sunday is a Catholic institution, and... can be defended only on Catholic principles.... From beginning to end of Scripture there is not a single passage that warrants the transfer of weekly public worship from the last day of the week to the first." Catholic Press, Aug. 25, 1900

''Reason and sense demand the acceptance of one or the other of these alternatives: either Protestantism and the keeping holy of Saturday, or Catholicity and the keeping holy of Sunday. Compromise is impossible.'' John Cardinal Gibbons, The Catholic Mirror, December 23, 1893.


=========================
“The Faith Explained” by Leo J. Trese
The Catholic Commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II
1965 -- first published 1959
(from "The Faith Explained" page 243

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day- which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

“nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..tha is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholics who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church”
=========================================

The point being that it is not just SDAs that "notice" this edit in the Bible and whether sola-scriptura testing model would support it.

 

[BobRyan]

1. The word for "wine" is our word for "grape beverage" - context determines if it is fermented or not.
2. Wedding feast at Canan - preserving fresh grape juice was the big challenge - the high goal. Jesus produced fresh juice. Even drinking the older juice that had preservatives would over time dull the senses to the juice.
3. Old wineskins were expanded from the old wine that rots over time producing gases that expand.
4. Passover wine is not fermented because passover is part of the feast of unleavened bread and no yeast is allowed - not even wine yeast that is used in making wine vs rotten juice.

I'm afraid you're incorrect. According to this Jewish source, the Jews make a distinct difference between the unleavened bread and fermented wine - v

Jewish tradition has it that Jesus was not the Messiah so that is not the golden rule for all Christian -- the question is about the Hebrew term itself and the fact that in some contexts that same word is translated as fresh grape juice and other cases as fermented. In the actual Bible - yeast/leven is forbidden during the feast of unleavened bread of which Passover is the start.

 

[BobRyan]

I don't normally post on threads that are about alcohol because it is not one of my priorities in posting -- but in case these texts are helpful to someone...




1) Proverbs 4:17 - Alcoholic drink is called the wine of violence.

2) Proverbs 20:1 - Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging.

3) Proverbs 23:19-20 - A wise person will not be among the drinkers of alcoholic beverages.


5) Proverbs 23:29-30 - Drinking causes woe, sorrow, fighting, babbling, wounds without cause and red eyes.

6) Proverbs 23:31 - God instructs not to look at intoxicating drinks.

7) Proverbs 23:32 - Alcoholic drinks bite like a serpent, sting like an adder.

8) Proverbs 23:33 - Alcohol causes the drinker to have strange and adulterous thoughts, produces willfulness, and prevents reformation.

9) Proverbs 23:34 - Alcohol makes the drinker unstable

10) Proverbs 23:35 - Alcohol makes the drinker insensitive to pain so he does not perceive it as a warning. Alcohol is habit forming.

11) Proverb 31:4-5 - Kings, Princes, and others who rule and judge must not drink alcohol. Alcohol perverts good judgment.

12) Ezekiel 44:21 - Again God instructed the priests not to drink wine.

13) Daniel 1:5-17 - Daniel refused the king’s intoxicating wine and was blessed for it along with his abstaining friends.

14) Hosea 4:11 - Intoxicating wine takes away intelligence.

15) Hosea 7:5 - God reproves princes for drinking.


16) Habakkuk 2:5 - A man is betrayed by wine.

17) Habakkuk 2:15 - Woe to him that gives his neighbor drink.

18) Habakkuk 2:16 - Drinking leads to shame.


19) Romans 14:21 - Do not do anything that will hurt your testimony as a believer.

20) 1 Corinthians 5:11 - If a Christian brother is a drinker, do not associate with him.


21) 1 Timothy 3:2-3 - Bishops (elders) are to be temperate, sober, and not near any wine.

22) 1 Timothy 3:8 - Deacons are to be worthy of respect and not drinkers.

23) 1 Timothy 3:11 - Deacons’ wives are to be temperate and sober.

24) Titus 1:7-8 - An overseer is to be disciplined.

25) Titus 2:2-3 - The older men and older women of the church are to be temperate and not addicted to wine.

 

[Bob Crowley]

There's an obvious difference between being temperate and sober, and being a drunk. I can have a glass of wine, and I'll be as sober as you are.

But if I were to polish off three bottles of wine, and cask of rum, I'd be blotto, if not dead. There's an obvious difference.

And since Christ drank wine Himself, I'm afraid I find the SDA attitude a bit over the top.

But I think we'll leave it at that, since neither of us is going to change our minds.

 

[BobRyan]

There's an obvious difference between being temperate and sober, and being a drunk. I can have a glass of wine, and I'll be as sober as you are.

But if I were to polish off three bottles of wine, and cask of rum, I'd be blotto, if not dead. There's an obvious difference.

And since Christ drank wine Himself, I'm afraid I find the SDA attitude a bit over the top.

But I think we'll leave it at that, since neither of us is going to change our minds.

That's pretty funny.. I am not here to "change your mind" ..

I am here to present Bible truth for those interested in actually looking at the texts on the various topics --- nothing more. Everyone has free will and can choose to ignore the texts or read them as they wish.

I leave it to the objective unbiased readers to make their decision.

 

[Bob Crowley]

My objective unbiased opinion is that when the Bible says "wine", it means "wine". I'd have thought that was blindingly obvious. It never once uses the term "unfermented grape juice" so how you read that into the text is beyond me, particularly when the Jewish tradition itself insists on wine. We use wine at communion, because Christ would have used wine at His final passover meal.

This was someone else's response to the question "When the Bible talks about wine, does it mean alcoholic wiine?"

First, understand people will adjust the literal translations of the Bible in order to hear what they want to hear. They will also interpret the words of the Bible based off of their own definitions as defined by their surroundings without truly finding out what those words meant to Jesus.

When the Bible says that Jesus turned water into wine. Then that's what it means. Jesus literally turned water into wine.

Jesus was not opposed to you drinking alcohol. He specifically states that we need to stay sober in all things and to not drink to the point that we become fools. We also have a responsibility to take care of our bodies and not trash them with excessive drink.

 

[BobRyan]

neither of us is going to change our minds.

My objective unbiased opinion is that ...

interesting sequence