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A few questions....

Ryft

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I read how you all word your prayers and you're just so open about them and free and I think of how my own prayers sound, or sometimes I mess up and stutter in prayer and I start over because I feel bad. I want to know if it is something that just comes to you naturally or... what? I mean, I read the thanksgiving prayers and I was just in awe. I cannot pray like that. Every night so far I've had my husband lead us in grace before dinner because I feel I'd sound dumb or say something dumb and have to start over.

The first thing I want to point out is, "You had read the thanksgiving prayers." You had read them, which means they were written. I assure you, everyone is more eloquent in their writing than they are in their speech, mostly because their introspections are able to bypass the clumsy mechanism of verbal articulation (e.g., nobody stutters when they write), flowing freely from the mind to the keyboard. One also has the ability to proof-read their post and make changes to it before publishing it, another luxury that verbal articulation does not enjoy.

Furthermore, written prayers are usually more verbose as well because, unlike spoken prayers, one can take long pauses to contemplate what they want to say. If I am praying aloud, those who are with me would notice if I stopped for three or four minutes to contemplate what I wanted to say next, whereas no one on CF has any idea how long I took to write my post, appearing to them as one seamless monologue. (Incidentally, this post took two hours to compose.)

Secondly, you have to think about how long this or that person has been a Christian compared to how long you have been one. The relevance here is the extent of their experience with the language of the faith; obviously the Christian community has a unique language for expressing the faith, and the longer one is a Christian the more familiar, knowledgeable, and comfortable one becomes with that language. That lends to an appearance of eloquence that is difficult to imitate for someone who is not as familiar with the breadth of the language; e.g., it is not difficult to imagine how intimidating the eloquence of a prayer from a career pastor must seem to a former atheist who has been a Christian for only a month.

Third, there is no formal ritual to praying; in other words, it is impossible to "mess up" in your prayer. Try to keep in mind what prayer is, fundamentally: it is you spending quality time with God. It is not about following a particular template or conforming your petitions to a certain formula. It is about you, very simply, talking to God. You can say a whole lot of things, if you have a lot to say, or you can say nothing at all, just enjoying the moment of thoughtful communion. You can spend one minute verbalizing your thanksgiving and four minutes quietly meditating on the glory and richness of your Father in heaven. That is not a one-minute prayer; that is a five-minute prayer.

Most of my own prayers never escape my lips. I communicate with God from the sanctuary of my soul, that sacred place indwelt by his Spirit, unfettered by the complications of finding the right words or going through a checklist or what have you. Sometimes I have to verbalize because I have too many thoughts competing simultaneously, but verbalizing prayer is not mandatory.

And remember that God is not uninformed about who you are. He knows you are uncomfortable with spoken prayer. He knows you are unfamiliar with the eloquent avenues of the language of faith. He knows that you sometimes stutter and mess up. And he loves that about you—because it's you. So don't ever hesitate to be yourself when you come to God in prayer, because it's you he has opened his arms to. If you are struggling to find the right words, go ahead and freely admit to God, right then and there, that you are struggling to find the right words. If you stutter during a prayer, go ahead and stutter. Smile sheepishly and admit to God, "I'll get better at this, honestly," and carry on. The best remedy against feeling self-conscious is to be yourself honestly and openly, because feeling self-conscious usually stems from how we fear others might be assessing our performance. Be candid. Be real. Be yourself. Reverently, but honestly. Of all the things that God is, remember that he is your Father. And as clumsy as you might feel, remember that you are his child.

Also I've been worried lately that when I pray I am just talking to myself. Not that I don't believe in God. I do believe in Him but I feel like uhm that He's not listening to me anymore because I wonder if I am like the hypocrites in the bible or someone God hasn't really chosen to be saved. I don't know but when I asked to be saved, my husband was also praying to be saved, and I didn't feel anything and he was really emotional. And I felt still like me, not like crying.

That is depends rather directly upon what you believe the nature of 'conversion' to be. Sometimes people are taught that conversion consists of this in-rushing of the Holy Spirit that is somewhat akin to a euphoric experience, so if they don't experience that quasi-euphoric feeling after reciting some formulaic sinner's prayer then they question whether or not they actually had a conversion experience, whether or not they are actually saved. But what if conversion does not necessarily consist of that feeling? Is it possible that some people are being needlessly misled, having experienced an authentic conversion but being made to feel as though they might not have?

What if conversion is characterized as a concert of authentic repentance and faith, being comprised of a genuine self-awareness of sin and its culpability before God, a Spirit-wrought consciousness of one's utterly lost condition, turning away from our manifold sin that offends God's character and breaks his law, turning away from every attempt at justifying ourselves before God by appealing to orthodox beliefs or acceptable behavior, turning instead toward Jesus Christ as our Lord in every sense and Savior in every sense, by a personal conviction that Christ is the only means of justification, of pardon, of right-standing before God, the only provision for the forgiveness of sins, the only source of moral power in effecting reform in our desires, thoughts, motives, behaviors, words? And what if this conversion, this repentance of sin and faith in Christ, can be actualized with a humble and sober heart in full recognition of the majestic sovereignty of a holy God? What if conversion is less about a feeling and more about a pattern of relating to God and others?

What is Heaven? If we die before the apocalypse or end times or whatever it is people call it will we be in Hell or dead until the end times come and THEN go to Heaven or do the saved who did what God wants go straight to Heaven after death? I am confused about this because I've heard different stories and I read the bible it doesn't seem clear.

The only thing I can do here at this moment is relate to you how I understand the issue. There is neither space nor time in this one post to make a solid biblical case so I will not attempt to. I will simply share with you what my beliefs are, leaving it to you to decide if it resonates with you or what you will do with it.

I believe that there will be a day of Judgment which will take place at a specific point in time. Consequently, I believe that no one goes to either heaven or hell when they die, that they await without any awareness in the ground for the final resurrection at the Second Coming. In that day, those who belong to the family of God will be resurrected to eternal life and taken to heaven along with the redeemed who are alive at his return, while the earth is left in ruin and the only being left conscious is Satan, everyone having been destroyed by the glory of Christ's return. This is the state of things for a thousand years, after which all the damned are read their judgment and the heavens and earth and every trace of sin is destroyed in a fiery maelstrom that is hell; God then creates a new heavens and new earth and the redeemed live forever in the presence of their King in the restored paradise of Eden. (Obviously I reject the idea that hell is eternal or that our time in heaven is eternal.) There are a LOT of biblical references that this view is derived from, but this is the brief abstract, to paint for you a succinct picture.

What does it mean to be like a child? If we aren't like children we won't go to heaven, right? So how do we become more like children?

By relating to God as a child relates to a parent. Children depend upon their parents for absolutely everything—their very life, their daily bread, their education, their moral upbringing, their security, their discipline, their strength, etc. They place all their trust in their parents. They love their parents in a way they never love anyone else. They confide in their parents. They come to their parents for comfort or encouragement. And so forth. The list is long but you get the idea.

These are my own thoughts, beliefs, and opinions. Take them with a grain of salt, but I hope they gave you a measure of encouragement.
 
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MrJim

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I believe that there will be a day of Judgment which will take place at a specific point in time. Consequently, I believe that no one goes to either heaven or hell when they die, that they await without any awareness in the ground for the final resurrection at the Second Coming. In that day, those who belong to the family of God will be resurrected to eternal life and taken to heaven along with the redeemed who are alive at his return, while the earth is left in ruin and the only being left conscious is Satan, everyone having been destroyed by the glory of Christ's return. This is the state of things for a thousand years, after which all the damned are read their judgment and the heavens and earth and every trace of sin is destroyed in a fiery maelstrom that is hell; God then creates a new heavens and new earth and the redeemed live forever in the presence of their King in the restored paradise of Eden. (Obviously I reject the idea that hell is eternal or that our time in heaven is eternal.) There are a LOT of biblical references that this view is derived from, but this is the brief abstract, to paint for you a succinct picture.

:wave: Howdy Ryft~don't think we've met...

The "laying in the grave" belief is called "soul-sleep"; actually an official teaching of a few groups out there like the 7th Day Adventists and Jehovah's Witnesses, not sure any orthodox (small "o") teach it though..?
 
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Ryft

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Howdy Ryft. Don't think we've met.

I don't think we have. Greetings in Christ. A pleasure to meet you (so to speak).

[The doctrine of 'soul sleep' is] actually an official teaching of a few groups out there like the 7th Day Adventists and Jehovah's Witnesses. Not sure any orthodox (small 'o') teach it though?

Well, I am immediately drawn to the term 'orthodox'. If by orthodox you mean churches that align with the basic fundamentals of the Christian faith as described by the Apostle's and Nicaean creeds and the first four ecumenical councils, then I would have to point out that the Seventh-Day Adventist church does qualify; although they espouse some arguably aberrant teachings, overall they affirm fundamental orthodoxy. (However, I think they hold an inconsistent soteriology. And the Jehovah's Witnesses certainly fail the test of orthodoxy.)

Having said that, no 'orthodox' churches aside from Seventh-Day Adventists and various Church of God denominations officially teach conditional immortality or soul sleep. Nevertheless (in addition to the argument that the teaching is Scriptural), there are a number of important figures in church history that affirmed the view, including a number of Reformed figures. I decided that the issue deserved considerable exploration upon learning that John Wycliffe, Martin Luther, and William Tyndale held this view, as well as more contemporary figures like Rousas J. Rushdoony (Presbyterian), Carl Frederick Buechner (Presbyterian), John Stott (Anglican), Philip E. Hughes (Anglican), Frederick F. Bruce (Plymouth Brethren), and Edward W. Fudge (Church of Christ). Even the Eastern Orthodox church is leaning further toward conditional immortality (which they understand as 'immortality by grace', Gk. kata charin athanasia). In addition to Scriptural argument, "they also stress the witness of the patristic writings of the 2nd century, when Christian apologists highlighted the contrast between their view and the Platonists' view. A classic example is the statement of Tatian, who said: 'The soul is not in itself immortal, O Greeks, but mortal. Yet it is possible for it not to die' (Oratio ad Graecos, 13)."

So indeed I think the doctrine is arguably within the fold of orthodoxy. The Scriptural argument is compelling in its consistency and logic, which I believe is what persuaded such significant figures as Wycliffe, Luther, Tyndale, Rushdoony, Bruce, etc., and crosses sectarian borders from Presbyterian to Anglican to Eastern Orthodox and so forth.

~ Sola scriptura; sola fide; sola gratia; solus Christus; soli Deo gloria
 
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Nadiine

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to Post #21 (Ryft) (too long to quote) ;)

EXACTLY what I would of said about prayer & the points you make.

spot on :thumbsup:
I'm the same way too, I do more "silent" prayer in my soul than verbal.
Most verbal prayer I do is alone in my own devotionals or when I praise Him.
 
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MrJim

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I don't think we have. Greetings in Christ. A pleasure to meet you (so to speak).



Well, I am immediately drawn to the term 'orthodox'. If by orthodox you mean churches that align with the basic fundamentals of the Christian faith as described by the Apostle's and Nicaean creeds and the first four ecumenical councils, then I would have to point out that the Seventh-Day Adventist church does qualify; although they espouse some arguably aberrant teachings, overall they affirm fundamental orthodoxy. (However, I think they hold an inconsistent soteriology. And the Jehovah's Witnesses certainly fail the test of orthodoxy.)

Having said that, no 'orthodox' churches aside from Seventh-Day Adventists and various Church of God denominations officially teach conditional immortality or soul sleep. Nevertheless (in addition to the argument that the teaching is Scriptural), there are a number of important figures in church history that affirmed the view, including a number of Reformed figures. I decided that the issue deserved considerable exploration upon learning that John Wycliffe, Martin Luther, and William Tyndale held this view, as well as more contemporary figures like Rousas J. Rushdoony (Presbyterian), Carl Frederick Buechner (Presbyterian), John Stott (Anglican), Philip E. Hughes (Anglican), Frederick F. Bruce (Plymouth Brethren), and Edward W. Fudge (Church of Christ). Even the Eastern Orthodox church is leaning further toward conditional immortality (which they understand as 'immortality by grace', Gk. kata charin athanasia). In addition to Scriptural argument, "they also stress the witness of the patristic writings of the 2nd century, when Christian apologists highlighted the contrast between their view and the Platonists' view. A classic example is the statement of Tatian, who said: 'The soul is not in itself immortal, O Greeks, but mortal. Yet it is possible for it not to die' (Oratio ad Graecos, 13)."

So indeed I think the doctrine is arguably within the fold of orthodoxy. The Scriptural argument is compelling in its consistency and logic, which I believe is what persuaded such significant figures as Wycliffe, Luther, Tyndale, Rushdoony, Bruce, etc., and crosses sectarian borders from Presbyterian to Anglican to Eastern Orthodox and so forth.

~ Sola scriptura; sola fide; sola gratia; solus Christus; soli Deo gloria

Well ya learn something new every day...:thumbsup:

[Haven't heard Rushdoony's name mentioned around here for anything other than Reconstructionism;)]
 
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porterross

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Martin Luther went back and forth on the matter of the nature of the soul after death and acknowledged Scriptural references to both immediate judgment and some manner of suspension, but the idea of soul sleep is NOT taught in orthodox Lutheran churches. There seemed to be varied speculation on Luther's part, which is what academic theologians do, but we focus on Christ's words on the cross to the criminal, whom He told would be with Him in paradise that day. It's an adiaphoron and I'm pretty sure it won't matter one way or the other to us when that time comes. ;)
 
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Ryft

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. . . but the idea of soul sleep is NOT taught in orthodox Lutheran churches.

Right. Like I said, it is not officially taught in any Christian churches beside the two I mentioned. However, that is not to say that there are no Lutherans who personally believe it. Most probably don't, but I'm sure there are some who do—just as I know there are some people in Presbyterian churches who personally believe it, and I'm sure examples could be multiplied. Like you said, in dubiis libertas.

~ Sola scriptura; sola fide; sola gratia; solus Christus; soli Deo gloria
 
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Rhamiel

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about praying and not feeling like He listens, there is a poem written called Dark Night of the Sould by St.John of the Cross (Juan de la cruz) a spanish saint, he writes about how part of becoming a mature Christian is for the Father to hold back our emotions so we serve Him out of love and not out a reward of happy feelings
 
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