A few questions for Protestants

Albion · Feb 19, 2022

Luther accepted the idea of Mary's Immaculate Conception early in his career when he was embroiled in other theological debates, but only because various church councils had affirmed it, and he felt that those people who did not accept it were entitled to that view as well.

But long before his death, Luther wrote on the subject and denied the reality of the Immaculate Conception. As with other doctrines, his views evolved throughout his life.

Buzzard3 · Feb 19, 2022

timothyu said:
the apostles however did not create an organization but a movement of the people

Says who?

Buzzard3 · Feb 19, 2022

Post deleted

timothyu · Feb 19, 2022

Buzzard3 said:
Says who?

The Way

timothyu · Feb 19, 2022

Albion said:
As with other doctrines, his views evolved throughout his life.

His argument wasn't over scripture but false authority which did not follow it, was it not?

timothyu · Feb 19, 2022

Buzzard3 said:
That means Jesus got it wrong when he said, "when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth" (John 16:13).

How so?

13However, when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth. For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and He will declare to you what is to come.

What the HS/Comforter/Spirit of Truth hears from God, not any man. Truth only comes from God. Jesus made that clear when He said the foundation His church of people would be built upon was truth from the Father, not from man.

Matthew 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

renniks · Feb 19, 2022

Buzzard3 said:
That means Jesus got it wrong when he said, "when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, (John 16:13).

Hmm..seems like he wasn't talking about reading.
Christ does not say that the Spirit will immediately put the minds of believers into a state of spiritual perfection. He didn't say the Spirit will totally replace a person's thoughts or opinions. We still are in the flesh as well as the Spirit.

timothyu · Feb 19, 2022

renniks said:
He didn't say the Spirit will totally replace a person's thoughts or opinions.

Yes it becomes a lifetime of wonder learning by looking at all the ways man can screw up by being self centred, and seeing just how perfect God's system is in comparison. The two are like day and night.

Fidelibus · Feb 19, 2022

renniks said:
https://www.facebook.com/COGHQ

Interesting renniks. Although you did not come right out and say it, (why, is beyond me) so I am left to believe you are a member of this "church of god", right? Anyway, did you happen to actually take a look-see at this Facebook article before you posted it, especially the first subject? That being..."Church of God Is." If not, here it is:

"The Church of God was founded in 1886 upon the principles of Christ as they are revealed in the Bible, the Word of God. It has its foundation of faith and practice in the Scriptures and the vital experience of its constituents is scripturally oriented."

Did you happen to take notice of the date this church you are a member of was founded? No? Well as you can clearly see, it was in 1886! That is one thousand eight hundred eighty-six years after Christ's ascension to Heaven! That is five hundred and five years after the Protestant reformation!

Funny thing is renniks, I searched this Facebook site and could not find who the original founder was in 1886. Pretty sure it 'was not' Jesus Christ! I would also be very curious which of the reformation founders church this "Church of God" you belong to splintered from in the past 505 years. Could you help out on that bit of this "Church of God's" history? I mean, come on....It can't be that difficult to find out, being this church you are a member of has only been around for a little over one hundred thirty-six years. Thats less time since the Civil War of the United States took place, and there is plenty of historic documentation there. So, I can't see there being a problem you posting this info. Thanks in advance!

Have a Blessed Day!

Fidelibus · Feb 19, 2022

SamInNi said:
Really? I know I'm only scratching the surface here just now, but isn't it true that Luther didn't leave Roman Catholicism abruptly? Shouldn't we expect his published writings and sermons to reflect how his understanding of biblical teaching developed over time? So, is it fair to suggest he believed in the Immaculate Conception "to his death"?

But anyway, I'd like to think that most informed Protestants wouldn't be looking to Luther at any stage in his theological development as a flawless authority on biblical doctrine. I certainly wouldn't be influenced by anyone's opinion that brings into question the clear, God-breathed teaching of Scripture, regardless of historic affiliations and standing.

I know that ultimately Scripture's supreme authority underpinned Luther's brave stand against Roman Catholic Tradition. His conscience was rooted in the Word of God and wouldn't let him accept "the authority of popes and councils." In this he rightly believed that the written Word declares the fullness of the Christian faith and glorifies Christ.

Can't help but notice, you completely avoided my questions on my post #590. if you happen to have missed them, I'll repost them:

"So, I would like to ask a few questions. When did these beliefs of Mary cease to exist in Protestantism? (Dates? even approximate dates) What church or churches throughout Protestantism decided these fathers of the reformation got it wrong about Mary? Who was it from the various Protestant churches that made these decisions? Finally, how did they get the authority to determine the reformation fathers got it all wrong when it comes to Mary?

Any official Protestant historic or present day, dates, writings, decisions, or documentations would be of great interest to read."

The Ball is in your court Bub!

Thank You and have a Blessed Day!

Fidelibus · Feb 19, 2022

renniks said:
Yep. I'm not going to start a thread.

Disappointing, but not surprised.

Fidelibus · Feb 19, 2022

Albion said:
We're not talking about the Vatican here.

Ha-ha..... if you think the Vatican is rolling in the dough, you are highly mistaken! Sheesh,,, some people!

renniks · Feb 19, 2022

Fidelibus said:
Interesting renniks. Although you did not come right out and say it, (why, is beyond me) so I am left to believe you are a member of this "church of god", right? Anyway, did you happen to actually take a look-see at this Facebook article before you posted it, especially the first subject? That being..."Church of God Is." If not, here it is:

Did you happen to take notice of the date this church you are a member of was founded? No? Well as you can clearly see, it was in 1886! That is one thousand eight hundred eighty-six years after Christ's ascension to Heaven! That is five hundred and five years after the Protestant reformation!

Funny thing is renniks, I searched this Facebook site and could not find who the original founder was in 1886. Pretty sure it 'was not' Jesus Christ! I would also be very curious which of the reformation founders church this "Church of God" you belong to splintered from in the past 505 years. Could you help out on that bit of this "Church of God's" history? I mean, come on....It can't be that difficult to find out, being this church you are a member of has only been around for a little over one hundred thirty-six years. Thats less time since the Civil War of the United States took place, and there is plenty of historic documentation there. So, I can't see there being a problem you posting this info. Thanks in advance!

Have a Blessed Day!

Lol, why does it matter when this particular church was founded? I'm not a member. I attend a church from this denomination. I'm not about denominations, I just want to be in a church that lifts up Jesus and loves people and spreads the gospel.

Fidelibus · Feb 19, 2022

renniks said:
I'm quite aware you have a catechism, but that doesn't change what I said.

Welp, if you did, you would get a lot more Catholics on this Forum to take you more serious when you post in regard to the Catholic Church. You know, there are many official versions of the CCC online. Give um a look-see some time!

Fidelibus · Feb 19, 2022

renniks said:
Lol, why does it matter when this particular church was founded? I'm not a member. I attend a church from this denomination. I'm not about denominations, I just want to be in a church that lifts up Jesus and loves people and spreads the gospel.

Then why did you post that Facebook site? Wow!

Fidelibus · Feb 19, 2022

Albion said:
Luther accepted the idea of Mary's Immaculate Conception early in his career when he was embroiled in other theological debates, but only because various church councils had affirmed it, and he felt that those people who did not accept it were entitled to that view as well.

But long before his death, Luther wrote on the subject and denied the reality of the Immaculate Conception. As with other doctrines, his views evolved throughout his life.

Is that right? I'll do a little more digging to verify if your thoughts to be true and post my findings. I say 'thoughts' for I failed to see you post any official writings of Martin Luther to show otherwise. However, in the meantime, I noticed you too skipped over my questions on post #590. I'll quote them again in case you'd care to provide the info requested.

"So, I would like to ask a few questions. When did these beliefs of Mary cease to exist in Protestantism? (Dates? even approximate dates) What church or churches throughout Protestantism decided these fathers of the reformation got it wrong about Mary? Who was it from the various Protestant churches that made these decisions? Finally, how did they get the authority to determine the reformation fathers got it all wrong when it comes to Mary?

Any official Protestant historic or present day, dates, writings, decisions, or documentations would be of great interest to read."

Thanks in advance Albion!

Fidelibus · Feb 19, 2022

renniks said:
I said no one has a perfect interpretation not that some aren't better than others.

Including your own?

Also, who's interpretations do you think are better than others? And if you believe some interpretations are better than others, how would you know these interpretations are without error? By who's or what authority could you turn to find out? Your pastor? These people themselves? I mean seriously, who's or what authority?

timothyu · Feb 19, 2022

If the teachings of Jesus are not clear enough to stand by themselves, then it is not the fault of scripture but of the people reading it who are simply still of the world of the flesh and can't grasp the concept of the Kingdom. No interpretation necessary. It says what it says.

Fidelibus · Feb 19, 2022

renniks said:
Lol, why does it matter when this particular church was founded?

Maybe because Jesus said it mattered, we are members of His Church.

I'm not a member.

Of?

I attend a church from this denomination.

And that church would be?

I'm not about denominations, I just want to be in a church that lifts up Jesus and loves people and spreads the gospel.

You mean a church that agrees with what you believe? Again, what church might that be?

You know renniks, I find it very odd that many Protestants and non-denominational believers like yourself, have such a hard time coming right out and say or name what specific church or sect is it they actually are members of. I don't have a problem at letting you know at all. I belong to the Church founded by Jesus Christ, the Catholic Church, of the Latin Rite! St. Vincent de Paul parish actually, on the west coast of the U.S.

Have a Blessed Evening

Fidelibus · Feb 19, 2022

timothyu said:
No interpretation necessary. It says what it says.

So, you should have no problem showing us a verse from Scripture where it say's these exact words.

A few questions for Protestants

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