A Disturbing Situation

[Diatrive]

Oh man . . . . I guess I waited to long to respond You snuck your post in there.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Let me guess?
4: Maybe you just didn't take enough? (whoops I was confusing my religous experience with yours)

Afflictive circumstances are a common reason why people walk away from the Lord. But look at what Jesus suffered-and He didn't do anything wrong. And He did it for us.

 

[Diatrive]

Afflictive circumstances are a common reason why people walk away from the Lord. But look at what Jesus suffered-and He didn't do anything wrong. And He did it for us.

Sorry, that was kind of an inside joke. I wasn't talking about punishment, I was talking about hallucinogenic psychopharmaceuticals.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Oh. :o

 

[Outspoken]

Ok then I'll let Mr Webster tell you.


So you see that Mr Webster agrees with me, the word "belief" denotes subjectivity. Thus beliefs are subjective by default. If you want to claim your particular beliefs are the absolute truth then you must be prepared to prove them. Otherwise we are in the perfectly reasonable position of seeing your claim as ridiculous.

Funny how someone who has the absolute truth doesn't know what a belief is.



Is that another statement of "absolute truth" LMAO. Sorry, just as you cannot prove your claim to absolute truth is correct neither can you prove your claim that my beliefs are wrong. All we have is your subjective opinion on the subject, unless you can prove it... but we already have seen your success in that regard.


You'd think someone who had absolute truth would have all of it at his disposal. Yet you continue to make mistakes. Hmmmm you expect us to take seriously your claim of absolute truth but you make so many little mistakes. If you can't get the little things right how can we believe you got the big things right. Such is the inherant problem with making extraordinary claims, it's the ordinary things that trip you up.

"Funny how someone who has the absolute truth doesn't know what a belief is."

LOL ahh twisting words, man you're good at it. My beliefs are absolute truth, not subjective truth like you claim yours are. Maybe you should take a philophy (sp) 101 class and find out the difference.

" you prove your claim that my beliefs are wrong. "

LOL I don't have to, that's the great thing about subjective truth, its all in the person's perspective. Thus I can say your beliefs are wrong, and you can only say, "that's from your perspective." My beliefs are absolute truth, thus i can say when posed the same statement, "No, my beliefs are right, even in your perspective." That is something you can never say

"You'd think someone who had absolute truth would have all of it at his disposal. "

*sigh* Why must nonchristians always believe christians are perfect. though I appricate your opinon of thinking I am perfect, I am not, but that doesnt' change the absolute truth of my position, unless you like throwing out babies with bathwater that is?

 

[feral]

LOL ahh twisting words, man you're good at it. My beliefs are absolute truth, not subjective truth like you claim yours are. Maybe you should take a philophy (sp) 101 class and find out the difference.

All religious beliefs are subjective. Your believes cannot be proven to be true. One must subscribe to your belief system in order to trust the only evidence presented, a 2000 year old book which has been repeatedly translated and adjusted, and as far as we know completed revised or re-written or added to. Obviously christianity is subjective since not even christians can agree on what the truth is (full body baptism or a bit of water sprinkled on the head, etc). You could show me every single thing that makes you believe you've found the truth, and I won't get what you have out of it. Your religion is belief, and not fact, as, I suppose, is Havoc's; even though Havoc's religion is more appealing to me I cannot see it as fact.

The only different is that christianity calls itself truth and some christians refuse to see that they believe something which is not fact. Your whole religion is based on faith...unproven, something you trust to be true. If god exists he's out of the realm of human truth, but in human understanding of the terms, belief by it's very nature is subjective.

 

[Havoc]

I would disagree. This removes a huge, huge factor from the equation: That supernatural proof, for which there is no natural observation. Just because you can't see it doesn't mean we can't.

Just because you can "see" it doesn't mean you can interpret it correctly or see it fully. People "see" things all the time and are wrong about the conclusions they draw. How is your claim of absolute truth and your religious experience more reliable than that of the many other religions that contradict yours? In the face of so many conflicting claims of truth the only way we can know for sure is the prponderance of substantive evidence, which you don't have.

 

[Havoc]

Afflictive circumstances are a common reason why people walk away from the Lord. But look at what Jesus suffered-and He didn't do anything wrong. And He did it for us.

I can't look at what Jesus suffered. We don't have any factual knowledge of what he di or experienced

 

[Havoc]

LOL ahh twisting words, man you're good at it. My beliefs are absolute truth, not subjective truth like you claim yours are. Maybe you should take a philophy (sp) 101 class and find out the difference.

Actually I have taken philosophy 101, and several 2nd and 3rd year classes as well. There was a philosophy requirement for my degree. This is why I understand the difference between having absolute truth and claiming to have absolute truth.

LOL I don't have to, that's the great thing about subjective truth, its all in the person's perspective. Thus I can say your beliefs are wrong, and you can only say, "that's from your perspective." My beliefs are absolute truth, thus i can say when posed the same statement, "No, my beliefs are right, even in your perspective." That is something you can never say

Oh i can say it, I'm just not stupid enough to. Any fool can claim absolute truth, and many fools do. The wise man knows the difference.

*sigh* Why must nonchristians always believe christians are perfect. though I appricate your opinon of thinking I am perfect, I am not, but that doesnt' change the absolute truth of my position, unless you like throwing out babies with bathwater that is?

Nothing changes your claim of absolute truth, it's just as ridiculous and unsupported as before.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

In my experience Christians rarely give the option. They pray "for" you whether you want them to or not.

Witches are somewhat different. We won't pray or cast spells on you unless we have your expressed permission.

You claim Christians are so rude in their prayers, yet when you are offered prayer, you don't say no.

Just because you can "see" it doesn't mean you can interpret it correctly or see it fully. People "see" things all the time and are wrong about the conclusions they draw. How is your claim of absolute truth and your religious experience more reliable than that of the many other religions that contradict yours? In the face of so many conflicting claims of truth the only way we can know for sure is the prponderance of substantive evidence, which you don't have.

Christians are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is very real and He reveals the truth in ways you can't possibly comprehend. You say you do not believe at all, but no one can deny the fact that you think enough of it that you find it worthwhile to come and debate with us about it.

Regarding evidence: we do have evidence. You don't have evidence. Actually you do, but you suppress the truth in lieu of what you truly wish to believe. There is no such thing as proof for any person who does this.

This also assumes that God is incapable of acting above your understanding. Do you honestly suppose this is true?

I can't look at what Jesus suffered. We don't have any factual knowledge of what he di or experienced

Without the Holy Spirit, it is absolutely true: you willl neither see nor believe even if you could see.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Oh i can say it, I'm just not stupid enough to. Any fool can claim absolute truth, and many fools do. The wise man knows the difference.

Thanks for calling every Christian including me a fool. Nevertheless, blessings to you.

 

[Havoc]

I didn't call every Christian a fool. Most Christians are quite aware of the difference between beliefs and proven facts. Most Christians don't fear the word "belief". It only seems to be a subset of Fundamentalists who make this ridiculous claim.

Anyone, not just Christians, who makes a claim of absolute truth without any substantive evidence, let alone the proof that would normally be required of such an extraordinary claim, is a fool. If you choose to put yourself in that category by clinging so stubbornly to a ridiculous claim you cannot begin to support, then so be it.

But maybe we can come to an agreement. I will concede your claim to absolute truth if you concede that everything you own actually belongs to me. You'll have to trust me on this one, it's the absolute truth after all.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

So even if I have this proof, I'm a fool because *you* don't have the proof. Should I actually say what I'm thinking about that, or can I trust you to figure it out on your own?

Nevertheless, blessings to you. I have a feeling I'm going to be saying that a lot from now on, so maybe we should just establish the acronym now: NBTY

 

[Havoc]

If you have the proof please feel free to present it. If you can actually prove your claim then it's certainly not ridiculous.

I won't be holding my breath.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

God is not a democracy, friend. He doesn't show you the goods unless you play according to the rules. That's His choice, and I have no desire to disagree with Him. J

NBTY

 

[Havoc]

So you still have absolutely nothing to back up your claim of absolute truth then, other than religious rhetoric. Well if the shoe fits.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

So you still have absolutely nothing to back up your claim of absolute then. Well if the shoe fits.

Is this where I hold up my ice cream cone and start singing, Nanna nanna nah nah?

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Havoc, why are you acting so hurtful? You are here by choice after all and you know full well no one agrees with you. It's not like that's any big surprise, is it?

 

[Havoc]

Not acting hurtful at all, just calling a spade a spade. If you want to call my faith absolutely false then I have every right to point out your folly. Would you do any less if someone told you your faith was absolutely false?

BTW there are quite a few people here who agree with me. Your statement therefore is false and certainly casts more doubt on your claim of absolute truth. Just in case you don't believe me I'll ask. Remember if even one person agrees with me your statement is proven false.

Is there anyone else here who thinks making a claim of absolute truth without any substantive evidence to back it is foolish and ridiculous?

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Not acting hurtful at all, just calling a spade a spade. If you want to call my faith absolutely false then I have every right to point out your folly. Would you do any less if someone told you your faith was absolutely false?

Calling a spade a spade. Well, alright, your religion is absolutely false. Be that as it may, religion, at least mine, is not based on something so malleable as personal feelings. It is based on authority, whether or not you choose to accept it. After the obedience comes the truth. Just calling a spade a spade.

NBTY