A Disturbing Situation

[Havoc]

Calling a spade a spade. Well, alright, your religion is absolutely false. Be that as it may, religion, at least mine, is not based on something so malleable as personal feelings. It is based on authority, whether or not you choose to accept it. After the obedience comes the truth. Just calling a spade a spade.

NBTY

Oh yes the old "whether you believe it or not" fallacy. More meaningless religious rhetoric.

Can you prove your religion is based on any authority higher than man? I didn't think so.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

When did I ever say I was trying to sell you anything? If the Holy Spirit wants you to have it it's one thing. Why do you think God is trying to cram it down your throat?

I mean, it isn't like these things haven't been addressed a hundred times before...

By the way, do you always make up false fallacies?

NBTY

 

[Havoc]

I don't think I ever mentioned you selling anything. I don't think your God exists so I certainly don't think he's trying to cram anything anywhere.

What "false fallacy" are you referring to?

Does this mean you concede you don't have any proof your religion is based on any authority higher than man? Is that why your dancing so divinely?

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

i already answered these
i'm going to hit the books now
nbty

 

[Philosoft]

Be that as it may, religion, at least mine, is not based on something so malleable as personal feelings. It is based on authority, whether or not you choose to accept it.

Eh? Christianity isn't based on "personal feelings," but on how one feels about the underlying authority? Feels how? Personally?

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Eh? Christianity isn't based on "personal feelings," but on how one feels about the underlying authority? Feels how? Personally?

Well, truth isn'tbased on personal feelings; God is God regardless of how anyone feels about that. We don't believe the authority of scripture based upon whether or not we like it, and that is what makes a huge, monumental difference between absolute truth and subjective "truth." (I think we should make it a sticky thread on why subjective truth is a logical impossibility so I never have to type it again.)

Anyway-you're right that people who ascribe to postmodernism do choose their religions this way. But not Christianity. Christianity is about THE truth, with an authority, completely unchanged by personal feelings or preferences. Certainly, there are those who tamper with scripture to suit their preferences, but then they get their doctrines wrong. And these doctrines are shown for what they are by other parts of scripture and faithful interpretations, or else you end up with some liberal church loaded to the gills with falsehood, and that church develops a reputation for being what it is. False.

 

[Havoc]

Well, truth isn'tbased on personal feelings; God is God regardless of how anyone feels about that. We don't believe the authority of scripture based upon whether or not we like it, and that is what makes a huge, monumental difference between absolute truth and subjective "truth." (I think we should make it a sticky thread on why subjective truth is a logical impossibility so I never have to type it again.)

Anyway-you're right that people who ascribe to postmodernism do choose their religions this way. But not Christianity. Christianity is about THE truth, with an authority, completely unchanged by personal feelings or preferences. Certainly, there are those who tamper with scripture to suit their preferences, but then they get their doctrines wrong. And these doctrines are shown for what they are by other parts of scripture and faithful interpretations, or else you end up with some liberal church loaded to the gills with falsehood, and that church develops a reputation for being what it is. False.

Still on about that "truth" thing are you? If you cannot show that you have the "truth" all of your claims arising from it are empty. And so far you have done "absolutely" nothing but repeat the same unproven claim over and over, with nary a shred of substantive evidence to back it up.

How is your claim to the "truth" any better than the Muslim claim? How can you say he is wrong when he makes exactly the same claim as you with exactly the same ability to show it?

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Still on about that "truth" thing are you? If you cannot show that you have the "truth" all of your claims arising from it are empty. And so far you have done "absolutely" nothing but repeat the same unproven claim over and over, with nary a shred of substantive evidence to back it up.

How is your claim to the "truth" any better than the Muslim claim? How can you say he is wrong when he makes exactly the same claim as you with exactly the same ability to show it?

1. Still thinking God is incapable of operating above your reasoning are you? And that you still have omniscient knowledge on all that has ver happened, universally. Still thinking God has revealed everything to you.

And of course you never address these, just like you don't address the prayer issues, or anything else. Just ask the same questions I've already answered. But I'll answer them again.

2. Christianity is the only religion that offers atonement for sin. Which, if we're honest, we all need.

Alright, look. Do you really want to see the truth? I mean, really?

 

[Outspoken]

Actually I have taken philosophy 101, and several 2nd and 3rd year classes as well. There was a philosophy requirement for my degree. This is why I understand the difference between having absolute truth and claiming to have absolute truth.

Oh i can say it, I'm just not stupid enough to. Any fool can claim absolute truth, and many fools do. The wise man knows the difference.


Nothing changes your claim of absolute truth, it's just as ridiculous and unsupported as before.

"This is why I understand the difference between having absolute truth and claiming to have absolute truth."

Then you admit I can clearly object to you saying my beliefs are wrong, while you cannot when I say the same of yours. Thanks for proving my point.

"The wise man knows the difference."

Exactly why I said yours were wrong

"Nothing changes your claim of absolute truth, it's just as ridiculous and unsupported as before.[/"

Again, you admit I made the claim, regardless of the outcome I can validly object to you saying my beliefs are wrong, while you cannot when I do the same to you. Again, thanks for proving my point.

 

[Havoc]

Anyone can object to anything just as anyone can claim anything. Your example is only meaningful if you actually have absolute truth, not if you simply claim to have it. So far you've given nothing but a completely unsupported claim.

Have you moved out of my house yet?

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Alright-backlog on the questions again. Do I need to contact inventory or have you just not gotten around to them all yet?

Tapping my foot...

 

[Outspoken]

"Anyone can object to anything just as anyone can claim anything. "

*sigh* I guess you're not making the connnection. The discussion was about the claim of absolute truth. You dont' have one, thus I can say you're wrong and you can't object, I have one, thus can object when you say, "you're wrong" So again, your beliefs are subjective and thus I can say your beliefs are wrong

 

[Havoc]

Sure you can say my beliefs are wrong. It just wouldn't have any more value than your claim of absolute truth.

 

[Havoc]

1. Still thinking God is incapable of operating above your reasoning are you? And that you still have omniscient knowledge on all that has ver happened, universally. Still thinking God has revealed everything to you.

Actually I don't think your God IS at all. I don't believe in him remember.

And of course you never address these, just like you don't address the prayer issues, or anything else. Just ask the same questions I've already answered. But I'll answer them again.

I believe I have answered your questions. You just don't seem to like the answers.

2. Christianity is the only religion that offers atonement for sin. Which, if we're honest, we all need.

If we're honest we'd admit that a claim of truth is not the same of truth. Christinity offers atonement for sins because Christianity purports that such atonement is needed. Without proof there's no need to believe that the Divine deals with "Sin" on those terms. Atonement isn't needed unless your God requires it, and you have no way of substantiating that he does.

Alright, look. Do you really want to see the truth? I mean, really?

Of course I do, and if I ever find someone with a rasonable claim to it, I'll listen to him.

 

[Outspoken]

Sure you can say my beliefs are wrong. It just wouldn't have any more value than your claim of absolute truth.

I disagree, and because of my claim I can, though you can't

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Actually I don't think your God IS at all. I don't believe in him remember.

Yes, I'm keenly aware. You seem to think that you're omniscient, and fail to recognize, although you'll be the first to point this out to a Christian, that just because the proof isn't available to you, that God doesn't exist. The presupposes an omniscince you can't possibly claim. So you expect Christians who have an authority to claim less knowledge than you without an authority. What is and what you'll accept are really what this is all about.

I believe I have answered your questions. You just don't seem to like the answers.

What about the authority question? What is yours? If you don't feel comfortable answering the prayer one, alright, I'll move on to your perceived omniscience. Do you have it? What is your basis for choosing what you believe? Because it was handed down to you? Havoc, why do you believe what you do? Let's put the shoe on the right foot for a moment.

If we're honest we'd admit that a claim of truth is not the same of truth. Christinity offers atonement for sins because Christianity purports that such atonement is needed. Without proof there's no need to believe that the Divine deals with "Sin" on those terms. Atonement isn't needed unless your God requires it, and you have no way of substantiating that he does.



Do you honestly think God doesn't care about sin? Let's be completely honest for a moment. Have you ever uttered in your heart, "Why is God doing this to me?"

Of course I do, and if I ever find someone with a rasonable claim to it, I'll listen to him.

Do you want to find it? I mean do *you* want to find it?
Or do you only want to believe that the eternal can be seen in the realm of the temporal? By reasonable do you mean, in accordance with your tastes? Do you believe you have sin? I know I do.
Sorry about the typos. There's a several second delay in all my typing, editing, etc. So it really will probably come out terrible

 

[Havoc]

Your claim is meaningless in asserting what I can and cannot do. You can disagree or agree as your whim dictates. What you seem unable to do at all is show that your claim of absolute truth is anything but spurious. Until you can do that, anything you base on that claim is equally as spurious.

Again I ask, have you moved out of my house yet? I'm anxious to sell it and collect the money.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Okay, so this failure to answer the questions is nothing nore than proof that you cannot answer these questions.

 

[Havoc]

Yes, I'm keenly aware. You seem to think that you're omniscient, and fail to recognize, although you'll be the first to point this out to a Christian, that just because the proof isn't available to you, that God doesn't exist. The presupposes an omniscince you can't possibly claim. So you expect Christians who have an authority to claim less knowledge than you without an authority. What is and what you'll accept are really what this is all about.

I don't think I'm Omniscient, I just don't believe you are either. You don't have an authority, you have a claim of authority. Yes what is and what I'll accept really is the heart of the matter. I won't accept that you have the absolute truth just because you claim to. What you have "is" a ridiculous claim you cannot, and quite frankly havn't even tried to, support.

What about the authority question? What is yours? If you don't feel comfortable answering the prayer one, alright, I'll move on to your perceived omniscience. Do you have it? What is your basis for choosing what you believe? Because it was handed down to you? Havoc, why do you believe what you do? Let's put the shoe on the right foot for a moment.

I don't need an authority because I'm not so foolish as to make a claim of absolute truth that I cannot support. You need an authority, even though you cannot produce one, because you do make such a ridiculous claim. Why I believe what I believe is not relevant, I believe it. One does not need to substantiate a claim of belief. If I was to put the shoe on the other foor I'd have to make a ridiculous claim of absolute truth. Once again I'm not that foolish.



Do you honestly think God doesn't care about sin? Let's be completely honest for a moment. Have you ever uttered in your heart, "Why is God doing this to me?"

I honestly don't give your God much thought. And why would I ask why a being I don't believe in was doing anything?

Do you want to find it? I mean do *you* want to find it?
Or do you only want to believe that the eternal can be seen in the realm of the temporal? By reasonable do you mean, in accordance with your tastes?

Yes, I really, really, really do. But in the absence of proof I'll have to go with faith. Fortunatly I know the difference between faith and proof.

Do you believe you have sin? I know I do.

I have a friend who "knows" there are aliens abducting people. Knowing is not the same as being right. Personally I have no reason to believe in your concept of Sin, so I "know" I don't have it.

Sorry about the typos. There's a several second delay in all my typing, editing, etc. So it really will probably come out terrible

I am the last person to criticise anyone on typos. You get your point across and that's what matters.

PS: I need to call the real estate agent soon to seel my house and all it's contents. Please can you be out by Monday? Also I'll need to know what the address is, thanx

 

[Rae]

Is there anyone else here who thinks making a claim of absolute truth without any substantive evidence to back it is foolish and ridiculous?

--Yep. Me.

Personally I have no reason to believe in your concept of Sin, so I "know" I don't have it.
--Me again.