A Disturbing Situation

[Havoc]

Whether you're willing to believe your beliefs are subjective or not is not relevant.

Beliefs are subjective by default. If you can show yours are objective then you might have a leg to stand on. Until then you are just claiming absolute truth, and claiming is not the same as having.

I did not say my beliefs were wrong. I said I understand the difference between belief and proven facts. I'm just not stupid enough to claim absolute truth if I cannot prove it. Apparently you and I differ in that regard.

Funny how you made that same typo over and over, and in several different tenses, while never once typing the correct pronoun. Oh well, I know you wouldn't lie and call a simple error in knowledge a typo. No Christian would do that.

 

[Outspoken]

Whether you're willing to believe your beliefs are subjective or not is not relevant.

Beliefs are subjective by default. If you can show yours are objective then you might have a leg to stand on. Until then you are just claiming absolute truth, and claiming is not the same as having.

I did not say my beliefs were wrong. I said I understand the difference between belief and proven facts. I'm just not stupid enough to claim absolute truth if I cannot prove it. Apparently you and I differ in that regard.

Funny how you made that same typo over and over, and in several different tenses, while never once typing the correct pronoun. Oh well, I know you wouldn't lie and call a simple error in knowledge a typo. No Christian would do that.

"Beliefs are subjective by default."

*chuckles* you missed a word here..let me help you "Havoc's beleifs are subjctive by default." You cannot tell me what my beliefs are or are not Havoc.

"I did not say my beliefs were wrong. "

No, you said there were subjective, I'm saying they are wrong and you would say, up you're right from your point of view. So again I say, you're beliefs are wrong. As for the type-o Havoc, we have spoken for awhile and I do recall you saying you are in or were in the Navy? I know you're a "he" but whatever, you're still mistake because you're mr. subjective

 

[Havoc]

"Beliefs are subjective by default."

*chuckles* you missed a word here..let me help you "Havoc's beleifs are subjctive by default." You cannot tell me what my beliefs are or are not Havoc.

Ok then I'll let Mr Webster tell you.

belief

\Be*lief"\, n. [OE. bileafe, bileve; cf. AS. gele['a]fa. See Believe.] Assent to a proposition or affirmation, or the acceptance of a fact, opinion, or assertion as real or true, without immediate personal knowledge; reliance upon word or testimony; partial or full assurance without positive knowledge or absolute certainty

So you see that Mr Webster agrees with me, the word "belief" denotes subjectivity. Thus beliefs are subjective by default. If you want to claim your particular beliefs are the absolute truth then you must be prepared to prove them. Otherwise we are in the perfectly reasonable position of seeing your claim as ridiculous.

Funny how someone who has the absolute truth doesn't know what a belief is.

"I did not say my beliefs were wrong. "

No, you said there were subjective, I'm saying they are wrong and you would say, up you're right from your point of view. So again I say, you're beliefs are wrong.

Is that another statement of "absolute truth" LMAO. Sorry, just as you cannot prove your claim to absolute truth is correct neither can you prove your claim that my beliefs are wrong. All we have is your subjective opinion on the subject, unless you can prove it... but we already have seen your success in that regard.

As for the type-o Havoc, we have spoken for awhile and I do recall you saying you are in or were in the Navy? I know you're a "he" but whatever, you're still mistake because you're mr. subjective

You'd think someone who had absolute truth would have all of it at his disposal. Yet you continue to make mistakes. Hmmmm you expect us to take seriously your claim of absolute truth but you make so many little mistakes. If you can't get the little things right how can we believe you got the big things right. Such is the inherant problem with making extraordinary claims, it's the ordinary things that trip you up.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

If you don't have the absolute truth, you will not know it because if you knew it that would mean you have it. But if you have it, you know it. (Try saying that five times fast.)

 

[Havoc]

And if you don't actually have it but have just convinced yourself or have been brainwashed into thinking you have it you will also "know" it, but you'll be wrong.

One can easily "know" something, and still be wrong. You are convinced you have the absolute truth, great. If you can't prove it you still don't have a reasonable claim, just a delusion.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

But according to this reasoning, no one can ever know anything. And in reality, no one can ever know something they are fighting with all their being.

Can I ask something? What do nonChristians think when people pray for them? Do they like it or hate it?

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Whether you're willing to believe your beliefs are subjective or not is not relevant.

Beliefs are subjective by default. If you can show yours are objective then you might have a leg to stand on. Until then you are just claiming absolute truth, and claiming is not the same as having.

I did not say my beliefs were wrong. I said I understand the difference between belief and proven facts. I'm just not stupid enough to claim absolute truth if I cannot prove it. Apparently you and I differ in that regard.

Funny how you made that same typo over and over, and in several different tenses, while never once typing the correct pronoun. Oh well, I know you wouldn't lie and call a simple error in knowledge a typo. No Christian would do that.

If there had material proof of an immaterial God other than creation itself, God would destroy it at once. He says in His word that His creation itself is sufficient. And you really do have to do some amazing gymnastics to avoid believing that.

 

[Diatrive]

What do nonChristians think when people pray for them? Do they like it or hate it?

Neither, I think nothing of it. I am completely indifferent to it.

 

[Diatrive]

If there had material proof of an immaterial God other than creation itself, God would destroy it at once. He says in His word that His creation itself is sufficient. And you really do have to do some amazing gymnastics to avoid believing that.

Hmm, actually you are going to have to do some amazing gymnastics to make that into an idea that proves the existence of god.

I could say that statement about anything, so if that statement is true. Everything I apply it to would also be true. Such as, if I believed in blue space faeries that created the universe I could just say.

"If there had material proof of an immaterial Space Faerie other than creation itself, the Space Faerie would destroy it at once. It says in Its's word that It's creation itself is sufficient. And you really do have to do some amazing gymnastics to avoid believing that."

Do you believe in my Space Faerie now?


I think the problem here is that you use the bible to back up your claims which is completely useless to us. That is like me trying to prove to you that Scientology was true and quoting to you out of Dianetics. Do you understand?

 

[Havoc]

But according to this reasoning, no one can ever know anything. And in reality, no one can ever know something they are fighting with all their being.

Can I ask something? What do nonChristians think when people pray for them? Do they like it or hate it?

No, the only conclusion you can come to from that reasoning is that it is unreasonable to claim absolute truth without proof. Try not to make leaps of logic without a bridge.

What is it you think I am "fighting with all my being"?

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

No, the only conclusion you can come to from that reasoning is that it is unreasonable to claim absolute truth without proof. Try not to make leaps of logic without a bridge.

What is it you think I am "fighting with all my being"?

I would disagree. This removes a huge, huge factor from the equation: That supernatural proof, for which there is no natural observation. Just because you can't see it doesn't mean we can't.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Neither, I think nothing of it. I am completely indifferent to it.

How would you respond if someone offered you the option?

 

[Havoc]

In my experience Christians rarely give the option. They pray "for" you whether you want them to or not.

Witches are somewhat different. We won't pray or cast spells on you unless we have your expressed permission.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

And neither does our God answer any prayers without the express, heartfelt cooperation of the individual being prayed for. Our God gives everyone what they ultimately want.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

(More thoughts...) Perhaps there are some who believe it is unjust for God to hide from them, but this disappearance only applies to those who do not want to know Him in the first place. Whether God's decision to remain hidden will be recieved as comfort or insult will depend entirely upon the station of the one who receives this word, for it is written:

8:9And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be?

8:10And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand. Luke 8:9-10

This is not meant to be brash, but rather written proof that God does not force Himself upon anyone, but is available for those who seek Him, for it is also written (and I must include this any time I speak of God's absence):

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Hebrews 11:6

 

[Diatrive]

How would you respond if someone offered you the option?

I would say "go ahead, knock yourself out."

To me it has about as much to do with affecting reality as someone saying " I am going to bake a cake and put your name on it. After this you will have good things happen to you." . . Uhhmmm sure. Have fun.

 

[Havoc]

(More thoughts...) Perhaps there are some who believe it is unjust for God to hide from them, but this disappearance only applies to those who do not want to know Him in the first place. Whether God's decision to remain hidden will be recieved as comfort or insult will depend entirely upon the station of the one who receives this word, for it is written:

There are people who have honestly tried to find faith in your God, praying sincerely for the belief he promised, and found that your God remained silent and refused to reveal himself.

How do you respond to them?

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

There are people who have honestly tried to find faith in your God, praying sincerely for the belief he promised, and found that your God remained silent and refused to reveal himself.

How do you respond to them?

An excellent question. I'm glad you asked. God has to be sought on His terms, and sometimes that requires some waiting.

Also, though, sometimes people come to Him with impure motives. They think all the suffering in their lives will end and that isn't true. While we are spared incredible griefs suffered by the world for sin, we are also subjected to other kids of suffering in order to remove our sin and make us more Christlike. The human heart is a stubborn thing. We want our lives to be the way we want them to be, and God knows exactly what is required to humble us, make us loving, compassionate, and selfless. And that means giving up mental gods like selfish types of ambition, greed, etc.

God doesn't ever walk away from us. It is the person himself who walks away from God.

 

[Diatrive]

There are people who have honestly tried to find faith in your God, praying sincerely for the belief he promised, and found that your God remained silent and refused to reveal himself.

How do you respond to them?

Let me guess?

1: They didnt have true faith in the first place.

2: They didn't wait long enough.

3: No one knows His plans and why you didn't get the response you were expecting. So you just need to keep trying.

4: Maybe you just didn't take enough? (whoops I was confusing my religous experience with yours)

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

I would say "go ahead, knock yourself out."

To me it has about as much to do with affecting reality as someone saying " I am going to bake a cake and put your name on it. After this you will have good things happen to you." . . Uhhmmm sure. Have fun.

If you want prayer, I would be honored to offer it on your behalf.