A Disturbing Situation

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

I answered this question in the very post you quoted, claiming I don't answer questions. Do you actually read other posts? Here it is again for you.
"I demand proof of Christianity because Christianity makes the ridiculous claim of absolute truth which they cannot support. Christianity furhter uses this ridiculous claim to claim all other religions ar false, including mine... I don't need proof for my religions because my religion is built on faith. Unlike most people we understand what faith is, we don't have to go around making ridiculous claims. If I was stupid enough to make a claim of absolute truth, I would expect to have to prove it."
That should answer your question... AGAIN.
I don't recall ever saying your religion is silly, just your ridiculous, unsupportable calim of absolute truth. If I ever made such a claim, without the substantive evidence to back it up, I would expect to be ridiculed too.

Perhaps if I rephrase the question: if faith is good enough for you, why do you demand proof from another religion? Yes, I know you don't like the claims of absolute truth because you want to choose something else. But what makes a debate-minded, proof-minded person select a faith for himself that requires none of this?

I enjoy good debate. In the abscence of good debate I enjoy debunking religious rhetoric.

Great! Me too. Now tell us what you believe and lets open up some good debate. (Oh btw, the difference between truth and belief was something I pointed out a couple of months ago at cq. )

I'm not a relativist. I firmly believe there is an absolute truth. I just don't jump on every bandwagon of every Tom, Dick, and Harry who claims to have it.

So what do you think this absolute truth is? Whose bandwagon did you select and why?

I don't feel you God owes me, or is, anything. I don't believe he exists. To expect anything of a non-existant being would make me rather silly. I have no reason to believe your claim that he selectively "reveals himself" etc. It doesn't make much sense and it's not supported by substantive evidence. I support your right to believe it but I don't support your claim that it is the "truth".

Well, 'cept for this:

I demand proof of Christianity because Christianity makes the ridiculous claim of absolute truth which they cannot support. Christianity furhter uses this ridiculous claim to claim all other religions ar false, including mine.

I do answer your questions. It seems you just don't like the answers. Perhaps you caould answer some of my questions. Particulary the ones regarding substantive evidence?

If you really want to understand Christianity, it's absolutely crucial to understand that God feels no compulsion to prove himself to li'l human peanuts. But there were people who claimed Ninevah didn't exist until a stone was found with the name of a Babylonian god. The stone was declared a fraud until the whole city of Ninevah was excavated.

Whom He has called He has chosen. But if you would like to see with your soul, I will offer you this clue: God works in paradoxes. And that's why He cannot be seen unless He reveals Himself.

 

[Havoc]

I do see with my soul, I just seem to be seeing different things than you.

 

[Outspoken]

I do see with my soul, I just seem to be seeing different things than you.

Havoc, you didn't even answer their first question

 

[tcampen]

So your idea of compassion is to allow the slaughter of unborn children. I find this contradictory. I see no rationality in this and this discussion is no longer based on facts.

My point was not to advocate abortion, but rather show how the chicken little approach of "the sky is falling!!!" is really just a method for attaining power and control to create a society the advocate wants. Creating fear among the people that a once great society is now crumbling, and pointing to certain people as the culprits (i.e. pro-choice advocates = THE ENEMY) is time-tested, and a effective means of motivating people through fear and suspicion. It justifies, in some people's minds, radical action - or else we will all perish.

I'm just saying that's how I see it, and I disagree with that tactic. There are too many examples in history of how such an approach caused far more destruction than good. That all.

 

[Havoc]

Havoc, you didn't even answer their first question

Which question did I not answer?

 

[DialecticMaterialist]

As we watch the news each night and see our progress on the war against fundementalism, when we see exactly what kind of violent, evil nutcakes are actually out there, we face a problem.

Here we live in a nation that kills for unborn embryos, mistreats the elderly, is filled with corruption and bigoted heterosexual agendas and extremism, and we know our nation is being ripened for tyrrany.

Then there's this portion of the equation: we live in a nation where we win our wars without having to even think about it. And we have an ungrateful country that slams our supreme court every day, complaining about the seperation of church and state, a fanatical quote each night of how many have died "since the end of anti-abortion laws," and we no longer care for the Constitution. In fact, we despise and condemn it every day.

Out these two together, and we have a very disturbing problem on our hands.

What are we going to do?

 

[Diatrive]

Well put DM,

I really really like the way this bit didn't need to be modified.

I can't believe that anyone would think of this as a positive thing.

we live in a nation where we win our wars without having to even think about it.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

My point was not to advocate abortion, but rather show how the chicken little approach of "the sky is falling!!!"

What is troubling about these two being in the same sentence?

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

I do see with my soul, I just seem to be seeing different things than you.

Do you have absolute truth, then?

 

[Fiendishjester]

I agree with tcampen. It is similar to an idea known as Threat Construction. I also find DM's post to be true.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

I agree with tcampen. It is similar to an idea known as Threat Construction. I also find DM's post to be true.

That's what they said in ancient Israel, too. And then they went off into exile. The question isn't, "How unpleasant does this sound?" The question is, Is it true? And to get that answer, you'd need to look at God and His word. Does God lie? What has happened to His nation in the past? Who said what, for what reason, and what was the outcome?

 

[tcampen]

"Originally Posted By: tcampen

My point was not to advocate abortion, but rather show how the chicken little approach of "the sky is falling!!!" is really just a method for attaining power and control to create a society the advocate wants."

What is troubling about these two being in the same sentence?

Answer: the fact that even accepting your view of the abortion issue, the sky is still not falling.

 

[Havoc]

Do you have absolute truth, then?

Probably not. Just like you I have a human perception of truth. Unlike you I understand the difference between absolute truth, which is objective, and human perception of truth, which is subjective in the extrems.

 

[tcampen]

That's what they said in ancient Israel, too. And then they went off into exile. The question isn't, "How unpleasant does this sound?" The question is, Is it true? And to get that answer, you'd need to look at God and His word. Does God lie? What has happened to His nation in the past? Who said what, for what reason, and what was the outcome?

Whitehorse, your analysis is a bit difficult to follow. So are you saying that because ancient Isreal fell out of favor with God because of its societal ills, then it fell apart? I must think there are other nations in far, far worse societal conditions than America, such as China, or Iran, or Burma, or Liberia, etc., etc., etc. But none of these nations are being wiped out. Sure, leadership or political change occurs, but the people are still there, chugging along.

Are you asserting that God has held special favor with America for some inexplicable reason? Keep in mind there are other nations that are more "Christian" than America, yet have much, much less in the way of material wealth, resources, power, and influence.

I guess I really don't get your point from a historical perspective. I mean looking at ancient Isreal is fine, and all, but when looking at world history according to the criteria you seem to be asserting, your ideas just don't seem to hold up. Maybe I just need you to clarify your position a bit more.

 

[tulc]

whitehorse wrote:
"Why do you feel God has to prove anything to you? He isn't begging for believers. In fact, He only reveals Himself to those who truly and sincerely seek Him. Why does He owe you an explanation?"

Isn't asking for proof of His existence sort of, you know, seeking Him?
tulc

 

[Godzman]

Probably not. Just like you I have a human perception of truth. Unlike you I understand the difference between absolute truth, which is objective, and human perception of truth, which is subjective in the extrems.

live by your human perceptions of truth, and you will get the gladiators, war and more war, and hate bitter hate, and killing babies when they come out of the womb, cannibalism, human sacrifice, and etc.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Probably not. Just like you I have a human perception of truth. Unlike you I understand the difference between absolute truth, which is objective, and human perception of truth, which is subjective in the extrems.

Actually, I pointed this difference out to you at cq, also. But that notwithstanding, how can you see with your soul if you do not have this? Only the Spirit of God can give this. If you have absolute truth, you know it. No one holds a green winter coat in his hand and says, "Is this real? I'm not sure!" (

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

whitehorse wrote:
"Why do you feel God has to prove anything to you? He isn't begging for believers. In fact, He only reveals Himself to those who truly and sincerely seek Him. Why does He owe you an explanation?"

Isn't asking for proof of His existence sort of, you know, seeking Him?
tulc

An excellent qustion, Tulc. and I'm glad you asked. The difference between seeking and not seeking is the motive of the heart. Some really do want to find God, and they seek evidence. And I believe God honors this in His time. But otherse want evidence which they routinely deny so that they can dismiss God from their minds. It's all about motive. And that's what God looks at: the heart.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

"Originally Posted By: tcampen

My point was not to advocate abortion, but rather show how the chicken little approach of "the sky is falling!!!" is really just a method for attaining power and control to create a society the advocate wants."


Answer: the fact that even accepting your view of the abortion issue, the sky is still not falling.

For the baby that gets pulled partially out of the womb and...

Yes. For that child the situation is most dire indeed.

 

[Godzman]

An excellent qustion, Tulc. and I'm glad you asked. The difference between seeking and not seeking is the motive of the heart. Some really do want to find God, and they seek evidence. And I believe God honors this in His time. But otherse want evidence which they routinely deny so that they can dismiss God from their minds. It's all about motive. And that's what God looks at: the heart.

Amen whitehorse