A difficult time

[FireDragon76]

I am just struggling at church. Please keep me in your prayers.

Next week we will have a guest pastor, an African American woman, so maybe the preaching will be good and I am curious to hear what she says. But otherwise, I feel alienated from church, and the world in general. IIt feels like church isn't relatable, especially with our current pastor. I feel like I am dealing with depression, and can't seem to enjoy things I used to. I have just been spending more time in bed trying to rest, and trying to slowly get back to things I enjoy doing, despite my anxieties about the future and my doubts about my religious commitments and beliefs.

Please don't respond to this if you are a conservative Christian. I do not want to engage with you here.

 

[okay]

Hi FireDragon76,

I have been away for 10+ days so just saw this - I often read your posts because you are so thoughtful. I am praying for you.

How was the preaching last week?

I hope this isn't out of line, but since you mentioned depression, anxiety and spending more time in bed, I would encourage you to talk to your doctor or a therapist if you have access. Many of my friends and family members (parents, children, etc) have found significant benefit from such help. I do realize that for many folks this is not a viable option due to insurance, finances, and such.

Take care.

 

[FireDragon76]

I just wanted to update you folks...

I have gone through a bit of a Dark Night, I think. Ever since the Biden debates. But especially the election. But maybe there is some light at the end of the tunnel.

I am not a person of great prayer. I think most of my perceptions of God occur on a level beyond words. Out of modesty, I won't describe the experience I had, nor will I claim it is anything special, but I've had a shift in perspective, both spiritual and intellectual.

I have come to the conclusion that only the Bible can make sense of the absurdity and brokenennes of contemporary life in the western world, especially in the US. Not in the sense of providing answers of the past, but providing a path forward beyond the post-truth nihilism we find ourselves in today. Sort of like Jordan Peterson adjacent, but much less obviously political in the traditional sense (I agree with his perscription, but disagree with his conclusions and some of his interpretation of Christianity). I think the elites in our country need to make peace with our Christian patrimony to progress, and the elites in our society have pretended that all we need is Enlightenment Humanism. I don't mean people should become believers, let alone fundamentalists. I mean we need to acknowledge the story of Jesus of Nazareth and the Jewish people he came from has been the fulcrum and key to western culture, and give that its due. Once we do that, I think we can constructively deal with the challenges of the 21st century. It's not a question of social justice vs. traditional values. It's both-and. We need to acknowledge the dignity of things like truth, morality, family, marriage, and community, all the while we seek to broader the circle of compassion and our capacity for justice, inclusion, and celebration of diversity.

Because if we don't do that, the neo-fascists are going to have the more compelling story. One based on predation, violence, and exploitation of the weak. And religious people sadly will follow them, fearful as they are in their dwindling numbers, and the growing numbers of frank heathens who simply do not operate by any kind of assumptions of natural law or morality other than self interest. Because the Left in the US isn't speaking to the consciousness or spiritual needs of the masses.

If anybody is interested, I recommend looking up Tom Holland's book Dominion. LIstening to his lectures has further helped crystalize my intuition. He's a historian and takes no sides in the culture war, other than to point out that both conservatives and progressives can both rightly claim to be operating within a broadly Christian social movement and that you can't value things like liberal democracy, human rights, and a rules based order, and come to those things without also taking on Christian assumptions about the world.

 

[RileyG]

[posting in fellowship]

I still keep you in prayer, and hope life is treating you well. I am sorry you are struggling.

Wishing you MUCH peace and happiness.

Take care.

 

[Durham Cicero]

If anybody is interested, I recommend looking up Tom Holland's book Dominion. LIstening to his lectures has further helped crystalize my intuition. He's a historian and takes no sides in the culture war, other than to point out that both conservatives and progressives can both rightly claim to be operating within a broadly Christian social movement and that you can't value things like liberal democracy, human rights, and a rules based order, and come to those things without also taking on Christian assumptions about the world.

If you aren't already familiar with his work, I'd recommend checking out Gianni Vattimo. I'd say he offers a compelling counter to something like the need for an explicit affirmation of Christianity for liberal or humanist values. Not because he doesn't see a connection between the two, but rather because he believes the universalizing message of Christ is realized in secularism. More precisely, the virtues of Christianity (e.g., humility, generosity, tolerance) have become taken for granted within secularism in the West. Ultimately, such values have become untethered from the traditional understanding of God and Christ. This untethering is such that one can proceed without the other.

 

[FireDragon76]

If you aren't already familiar with his work, I'd recommend checking out Gianni Vattimo. I'd say he offers a compelling counter to something like the need for an explicit affirmation of Christianity for liberal or humanist values. Not because he doesn't see a connection between the two, but rather because he believes the universalizing message of Christ is realized in secularism. More precisely, the virtues of Christianity (e.g., humility, generosity, tolerance) have become taken for granted within secularism in the West. Ultimately, such values have become untethered from the traditional understanding of God and Christ. This untethering is such that one can proceed without the other.

OK, but how do we offer a compelling story defending secularism in the absence of institutions that defend its basis on a pre-rational/premodernist level? I think that's what Tom Holland is getting at. How can you have the fruit, secularism, without the root, Christianity? Especially with the rise of authoritarian and fascistic governments in the wake of the post-Christian west?

 

[Durham Cicero]

OK, but how do we offer a compelling story defending secularism in the absence of institutions that defend its basis on a pre-rational/premodernist level? I think that's what Tom Holland is getting at. How can you have the fruit, secularism, without the root, Christianity? Especially with the rise of authoritarian and fascistic governments in the wake of the post-Christian west?

I don't think defenses from the level of the premodern are compelling. That's precisely why they have been largely rejected. We no longer need to defend the legitimacy of governing authority by appeal to the divine right of kings, for example. As Vattimo argues, if it was modernism that opened the door for the secular and closed the door for the religious, it is postmodernism that has renewed the possibility of the religious. Of course, the religion in mind is neither premodern nor modern; it is postmodern (i.e., postmetaphysical). Vattimo himself was a Christian. Namely, he was a Roman Catholic. He most definitely saw a place for organized religion, I'd say. Its function for him was to point to the past, a "religious origin." Roman Catholicism offered a point of continuity with the past. The living, genuine expression of Christianity is to be found outside of the Church, though; it is to be found in the secular. That is, it is to be found in loving one's neighbor. While I see organized religion as being more significant than what amounts to being aesthetics, I do largely agree with Vattimo's understanding of the progression from non-religious secular modernism to religious secular postmodernism.

 

[FireDragon76]

I don't think defenses from the level of the premodern are compelling. That's precisely why they have been largely rejected. We no longer need to defend the legitimacy of governing authority by appeal to the divine right of kings, for example. As Vattimo argues, if it was modernism that opened the door for the secular and closed the door for the religious, it is postmodernism that has renewed the possibility of the religious. Of course, the religion in mind is neither premodern nor modern; it is postmodern (i.e., postmetaphysical). Vattimo himself was a Christian. Namely, he was a Roman Catholic. He most definitely saw a place for organized religion, I'd say. Its function for him was to point to the past, a "religious origin." Roman Catholicism offered a point of continuity with the past. The living, genuine expression of Christianity is to be found outside of the Church, though; it is to be found in the secular. That is, it is to be found in loving one's neighbor. While I see organized religion as being more significant than what amounts to being aesthetics, I do largely agree with Vattimo's understanding of the progression from non-religious secular modernism to religious secular postmodernism.

Interesting... Bonhoeffer had some similar ideas, at least in its implications.

The aesthetic dimension of Christianity, or perhaps some other religion with similar values, seems to be necessary to point towards the value of the secular vs. fascism's attempt to engage in a reordering of metaphysics and ethics based on enchanting the world with the will to power rather than love of neighbor and care for the marginalized.

Out of curiosity, are you familiar with Clare Graves Spiral Dynamics? Everybody goes through pre-rational stages of thinking at some point in their life, and perhaps the answer is in ultimately in integrating such religious experiences rather than rejecting them?

 

[Durham Cicero]

Interesting... Bonhoeffer had some similar ideas, at least in its implications.

The aesthetic dimension of Christianity, or perhaps some other religion with similar values, seems to be necessary to point towards the value of the secular vs. fascism's attempt to engage in a reordering of metaphysics and ethics based on enchanting the world with the will to power rather than love of neighbor and care for the marginalized.

Out of curiosity, are you familiar with Clare Graves Spiral Dynamics? Everybody goes through pre-rational stages of thinking at some point in their life, and perhaps the answer is in ultimately in integrating such religious experiences rather than rejecting them?

Yes, I think you're right about Bonhoeffer. And I also think you're right to be concerned about the metaphysics of right-wing authoritarianism. For what it's worth, I see metaphysics as dangerous more generally. There is an inherent danger in making abstract universals out of particulars (i.e., when contingency becomes necessity). Metaphysics enabled Catholics and Protestants alike to torture and burn heretics, Soviets to put dissenters into gulags, and MAGA Republicans to send innocent immigrants to prisons (read: forced labor camps) in El Salvador. With Dostoevsky, I will choose Christ over truth. That is, I will choose love, tolerance, and peace over a truth (in the metaphysical sense) that is necessarily exclusive.