A different view of the Rapture.

[OrthodoxyUSA]

http://www.sfaturiortodoxe.ro/orthodox/orthodox_advices_cleopa_thousand_year_reign.htm

Forgive me....

 

[GraceInHim]

The gathering of saints after the tribulation is done by angels whereas the gathering of the church is done by "The Lord Himself."


Rev 22:17-20 And the Spirit and the Bride say come. And he that heareth, let him say come ... He who testifieth of these things saith

"Yea, I come quickly, AMEN. COME LORD JESUS.​

 

[GraceInHim]

and I am not a southern, but eastern, park my car in a harvard yard...lol

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

The church will be "kept from the hour of testing that shall come upon all the world." (Rev. 3:10)

The believer will escape the tribulation (Luke 21:36).

It is in the character of God to deliver His own from the greatest times of trial. (Lot, Rahab. Israel, Noah,etc)

It is clear that there is a time interval between the translation of the church and the Return of Christ. (John 14:3)

At the Rapture, the church meets Christ in the air. At the second coming, Christ returns to the Mt of Olives

No unfulfilled prophecy stands between the church and the rapture. Many signs must be fulfilled before the second coming of Christ.

could go on and on....

there are too many verses to say God will not save his children from the Satan's hands in the end-times..

Luke 21:36

Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

What you are suggesting is not the orthodox understanding of this passage.

John 14:3

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Nor is what you suggest about this passage.

There are many verses misundrestood this way.

Do you not think that the Church who wrote, collected, approved and bound these as her testament, would not understand them?

The Rapture is a modern idea put together from a mishmash of different passages that seem to suggest such action. But it's not Apostolic... and there is an Apostolic teaching on this matter...

So anything that goes against Apostolic teaching is going to be a replacement Theology based on what man has tried to read into the NT scriptures...

Forgive me....

 

[GraceInHim]

What you are suggesting is not the orthodox understanding of this passage.



Nor is what you suggest about this passage.

There are many verses misundrestood this way.

Do you not think that the Church who wrote, collected, approved and bound these as her testament, would not understand them?

The Rapture is a modern idea put together from a mishmash of different passages that seem to suggest such action. But it's not Apostolic... and there is an Apostolic teaching on this matter...

So anything that goes against Apostolic teaching is going to be a replacement Theology based on what man has tried to read into the NT scriptures...

Forgive me....

the Church is a body of believers around the world, not a stone building,... there are Christians everywhere on earth who do not belong to a specific Church.. so the argument for the true church thing is moot.. the word in the Holy Scriptures are God's and does not belong to one Church.. that is for another thread anyway...

I believe God saves his children from the tribulation in the end times.. we can agree to disagree.. I rather think my God saves me and keeps me from harm and evil..

 

[depthdeception]

since you and some others seem to know a lot.. can you tell me what these words mean?

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 [15] According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. [16] For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. [17] After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

I'm not entirely sure what the words mean. Is heaven "up?" Are we going to ascend 30,000 feet in the air? These words are infused with a metaphorcial undercurrent which seeks to express more than words are able, I suspect.

1 Corinthians 15:51-55 [51] Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed -- [52] in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. [53] For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. [54] When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory." [55] "Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?"

I'm not sure what this has to do with the rapture. Sounds more like resurrection in general to me.

 

[GraceInHim]

I'm not entirely sure what the words mean. Is heaven "up?" Are we going to ascend 30,000 feet in the air? These words are infused with a metaphorcial undercurrent which seeks to express more than words are able, I suspect.

with God.. all things are possible... I do not question him but believe he is All Mighty and anything is possible through him and not man...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

the Church is a body of believers around the world, not a stone building,... there are Christians everywhere on earth who do not belong to a specific Church.. so the argument for the true church thing is moot.. the word in the Holy Scriptures are God's and does not belong to one Church.. that is for another thread anyway...

I believe God saves his children from the tribulation in the end times.. we can agree to disagree.. I rather think my God saves me and keeps me from harm and evil..

O.K. ~ We agree to disagree....

Where and when did this Theology (way of thinking) begin?

Who revealed it?

Forgive me.....

 

[GraceInHim]

O.K. ~ We agree to disagree....

Where and when did this Theology (way of thinking) begin?

Who revealed it?

Forgive me.....

it begin with God who was Jesus from the beginning.. the word was with God..

Jesus revealed it through prophets, scribes and so on.. but it was always Jesus from the beginning..

this is something of before he returns or not.. we just disagree ..

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

it begin with God who was Jesus from the beginning.. the word was with God..

Jesus revealed it through prophets, scribes and so on.. but it was always Jesus from the beginning..

this is something of before he returns or not.. we just disagree ..

The Rapture Theology?

If your saying it has been there from the begining of Christianity and was delivered to the Apostles by Christ, I am certain you are quite mistaken.

Provide any secondary "non-scriptural" evidence that this idea about the second coming in scripture existed before year 1000 please.

Forgive me...

 

[holdon]

I'm not entirely sure what the words mean. Is heaven "up?" Are we going to ascend 30,000 feet in the air? These words are infused with a metaphorcial undercurrent which seeks to express more than words are able, I suspect.

Where is the "air" according to you? It may not be 30,000ft see: Acts 22:23 "throw dust in the air", but then it maybe more than that...

I'm not sure what this has to do with the rapture. Sounds more like resurrection in general to me.

That verse said that we will not all sleep... We will not all die. So, then we cannot be resurrected. But it does say that we will be changed. At that trumpet sound the dead shall be raised and living changed. Compare that with 1 Thess 4:16,17, the trumpet of God; the dead raised, and dead and living together caught up to be with the Lord forever.

 

[GraceInHim]

The Rapture Theology?

If your saying it has been there from the begining of Christianity and was delivered to the Apostles by Christ, I am certain you are quite mistaken.

Provide any secondary "non-scriptural" evidence that this idea about the second coming in scripture existed before year 1000 please.

Forgive me...

the OT is not fulfilled in many of the Prophets writings.. there is more to just the NT and yes, they were God's words to the Apostels who wrote them.. and do not belong to any (1) Church.. but for all believers on earth..

sorry, I do not provide non-scriptural words, only God's is what I go by..

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

the OT is not fulfilled in many of the Prophets writings.. there is more to just the NT and yes, they were God's words to the Apostels who wrote them.. and do not belong to any (1) Church.. but for all believers on earth..

sorry, I do not provide non-scriptural words, only God's is what I go by..

But surely the idea had been discussed and written about prior to year 1000?

I mean if the idea existed before then.... did the subject escape being written about by all the Early Church Fathers?

Forgive me.....

 

[GraceInHim]

But surely the idea had been discussed and written about prior to year 1000?

I mean if the idea existed before then.... did the subject escape being written about by all the Early Church Fathers?

Forgive me.....

yes in the Bible, which I already provided scrips in many of my post.. and there are many more.. also in OT.. shall we go around the bend again??

we disagree.. that is all I can say..

If you think you have all the answers, then I suggest to place some scrips down (God's words) for others to read, that suggest otherwise.. I have provided what God said,..

peace

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

yes in the Bible, which I already provided scrips in many of my post.. and there are many more.. also in OT.. shall we go around the bend again??

we disagree.. that is all I can say..

If you think you have all the answers, then I suggest to place some scrips down (God's words) for others to read, that suggest otherwise.. I have provided what God said,..

peace

You missed my point entirely... for that I am sorry... I'm not doing very well at explaining why it cant be correct.

I will try harder if you wish....

No ill will.... I still love you..... even if we are both wrong.


Forgive me....

 

[GraceInHim]

No ill will.... I still love you..... even if we are both wrong.


Forgive me....

love you also

think this thread belongs in Eschatology - the way it is leading..

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

In the opinion of the Orthodox Church "EVERYTHING" except "when" Christ would come again was laid out perfectly clear to the Apostles....

There are no NEW ideas... no NEW revelations....

Therefore, if this idea of everyone (believers) being taken away before trouble starts in the final days was truely revealed as you say... the Apostles new about it...

But, what the Apostles explained and passed down does not include this Rapturing away of the Church (believers).

In fact the Apostles said just the opposite.... we will be here and suffer through it.

Forgive me....

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

love you also

think this thread belongs in Eschatology - the way it is leading..

It could go there.... but it belongs here justs as easily.

Forgive me....

 

[depthdeception]

Where is the "air" according to you? It may not be 30,000ft see: Acts 22:23 "throw dust in the air", but then it maybe more than that...

This is a good point. I was thinking to the allusion in the verse earlier posted about "meeting in the clouds"... My point was more directed towards the metaphorical nature of the word "air" and "clouds."

 

[Jig]

I'm most disappointed. I wanted to know what the people who believe in the rapture thought about my OP. In NO WAY was this a thread on if the Rapture is a real event or not. There have been plenty of posts on that. Please stop.

I do not understand why you are dividing physical and spiritual death. If the real problem of sin is "spiritual death," it makes no sense why Christ died physically. Obviously, Christ died to save us from physical death as well.

If Christ died to save us from physical death, then why do saved people die a physical death still?

Because your "earthly body" is you. There will be no separation, for to be human is to be body/soul; they cannot be divided. If you ceased to be body, you would cease to be--period.

Let me ask you a question: When we go to Heaven will we still have our old Earthly body or a new glorified body?

Also, when we die, do you believe the soul stays with your corpse? What happens if the body is cremated and scattered? Is the soul also scattered in pieces?

Physical bodies are not sinful.

The flesh is weak and sinful by it's very nature. Paul said so. (Romans 8:3, etc.)

That is the error of gnostic thought, a heresy which has been condemned by the historic Church from the very beginning.

Quite trying to build a straw man...I'm not subscribing to any gnostic beliefs. I'm not saying the soul is free from the stain of sin. Now, that would be a gnostic belief.

I don't think there will a "rapture" in the popular sense of the term.

Well, that would be a great opinion to express if this thread was about if you believed there is a Rapture. It's not though.