A dialogue between Floridians, but

[IKTCA]

.

 

[Charlesinflorida]

(open to all believers)

Charles in Florida,

I have read your posts and learned much. Most of all I admire your zeal to please the Father by following the laws of Talmud and studying the scriptures of Tanak. Until I read your posts I didn't even know the word Tanak. To this Gentile believer, what is not NT is OT. My apology for ignorance in the Judaic belief and Jewish culture. Do Talmud and Tanak form the Old Testament? What is Torah then? I am spilling out my ignorance.

Please allow me to state my concern first. Reading your posts made me wonder if your zeal for the OT laws is nearing the level of disqualifying those believers who have less zeal than you, or little at all. Or was I just oversensitive? Can we start our dialogue with this? Please share with me, as much as you are willing, the teachings of Talmud and Tanak.

Rupert in Florida

Greetings,

I am not sure if I am allowed to post here as my Icon is Messainic Judaism. I will answer your question though.
Let me clarify first that Torah is the same as Pentetque (sp) the first five books which were written by Moshe (Moses). The Talmud is a collection of commentaries on the Torah much as you have today in a study bible. It is the comments and judgements of Torah scholars going back several Millennia. Talmud also sets down some laws as pertaining to how we might best relate to obedience to Torah. In this respect is sets up what are alled Hedges around the Torah, which serves to keep a person from accidently breaking a Torah command. It does this by establishing lesser laws that if broken tell you that you are near breaking the Torah Command itself.

Torah in the new testament and in modern translations of the OT is translated as "Law". This is a very generec translation and totally inadequate, because the correct Hebraic translation would be "The Teaching and instruction". It is Gods instruction for all those who are redeemed, saved through faith. Today the church has the incorrect idea that obedience to Torah commandments was a way of salvation for those before Jesus. This is Total error. In Judaism salvation has always been a process of repentence and faith in Gods Grace. The OT is filled with examples, such as Abraham. Torah also contains special rulings for things like marriage, inheritance, criminal justice, health concerns, priesthood and worship, and more. The purpose of all these laws was very similar to the US constitution, which establishes a framework for a nation of people. In fact the writers of the constitution used Torah as a guide. Torah is the constitution of all who are redeemed, and called Gods children. We learn in Numbers that God set down one law for Israel, and all the nations who would align themselve with the God of Israel.

So there is a big diference between Talmud and Torah. I personally do not follow Talmud in practice. I am, as many Messianics, Biblically Judaic, using all the bible as instruction. Talmud you can think of as Rabbinical Judaism, that is based on the teachings of the Rabbinate of the ages.

Here is an example as to why I choose to be biblical. The scriptures say that "you shall not boil a kid goat in its mothers milk". The Torah command is against cruelty and inhumane action concerning your livestock, which was a common pagan custom. Many Pagan religious practices incorporated as much cruelty and violence as possible. Well out of this the Rabinate decided, to make sure that you do not accidently use milk from the mother to cook the kid, you shall not eat meat and dairy together. This means no cheese on your burger, no meat on your Pizza. It went from that to not preparing meat and dairy in the same place, so Kosher homes have two kitchens, one for dairy foods and one for meats. Two sets of cookware, two sets of dishes, ect. ect. I think this misses the biblical intent of the law. I respect someones desire to be this careful, but do not feel compelled by the Lord to practice this separation.

Tanahk is the canon of Old Testament same as your own, except the books are in a slightly different order. I use the "Complete Jewish Bible", which includes the Old and New as a single book without a division of Old Testament and New testament. It is one continuous testament, from the same God.

In answer to your question about my zeal?; well once I used to smoke weed, and dabble in things that were spiritually bad news (Perhaps occult though they had a scientic base) . Later on I learned that these things did not please God, and did not build me up in the spirit so I repented of them and quit doing them. I didn't do this to earn my salvation, but did it becasue I am grateful to God for already saving me and wanted to live according to what HE says is best for me and will make my spiritual life more productive; in other words living to increase my faith and knowledge of him.

The same God who said to me do not fool with the occult, and don't use drugs also said there are things that are clean and holy and good for you and things that are unclean and unholy to you. So I have made a decision out of love for God and fear of God to submit myself to his Lordship in as many areas of my life as I can find. And he has a list of areas that he would have me consider. They are listed in Torah. Now when you consider that the Lord and the disciples obeyed these directions, as did the first thousands and hundred thousands of believers for about 300 years, it seems to me I must do this also. You see the Christainity that developed after 300 AD was filled with Roman Pagan traditions. God says,"You shall not worship me in the same way as the Pagans worship their gods for I am the Lord your God.Yet many of the Churches traditions are christian adaptation of Pagan ritual. This is a documented fact and was used as a tatic in the Roman church to draw in new converts, making the new christian faith similar to what they already knew.

So just as the charismatic movement was a return to the 1st century church in regards to the gifts and empowerment by the spirit, so also, Messianic Judaism is a return to first century worship and theology that accompany those gifts of tongues, prophecy, descerning of spirits ect.

After being baptised in the Spirit, things in the Bible suddenly came alive and had meaning. ut not just the New testament, but the Old as well, because the Old is what the disciples and the fist believers had for their guidance. There was no New testament. When Paul dais that all scripture is good and perfect, he is taking about the OT Tanahk. . So this word is for us. The New testmant is broken into a couple area maybe 3. The gospels. The prophecy, and the rest is telling us how people bith Jew and Gentiles began to form together into one group of redeemed people which was the fulfillement of the promise to gather together a nation from the Gentiles and join them with Israel into one redeemed community. Most of the letters are all about the events, difficulties of that union formation.

I hope this helps. Sorry my answer seems so long, but it is a very difficult subject to answer in ten words or less.

Charles in Florida

To the Moderators.

If you do not want me to post here in this way either please tell me and I will withdraw from posting or answering questions. You guys run the forum. I will do as you wish. My Icon will remain Messianic. I do not believe Messianic to be a denomination, for their is no such hing. It is a lifestyle, a way of walking. My life style and worship practice ect. is most closely indicated by Messainic Jew.

 

[Perceivence]

When was the Tanakh fully compiled/assembled as a single collection?

 

[Charlesinflorida]

The Hebrew Canon:

Tanahk is really TNK an accronym for
T=Torah, books of moses
N= Nevi'im, writings of the prophets
K= Ketuvim, the writings, (litature or stories)

Because the books are grouped this way, they fall in a different order than your english translations.
The canonisity of all the N and K were judged by agreement with Gods words in Torah and the accuacy of the prophet. Generally speaking the Jews felt that the Canon closed when the shekeina no longer filled the Temple, which ended after the death of the High priest Simon the Righteous about 310 BC. The scriptures remained scrolls in Hebrew until the LXX was written, (the septuagent, Greek version) Paul most often quotes the LXX, but on several occassions corrects it to the Hebrew. All the cannonical books except Esther I believe were found at the Dead sea. There may be several reason for Esthers exclusion. One might be because the actual name of God YHVH does not appear in the text, or beause it involves Purim, a feast that the Escenes did not agree should have been added to that given by God .(A Calendar dispute)

But the answer seems to be somewhere around 300 B.C. to 250 BC the OT canon was compiled.

One note concerning the accuacy of the Hebrew scriptures;

Every Scroll that was writen was done by hand by scribes insuring every letter was correct. They even used a system of cheksum, much as computer language, where every text had a mathematical value for the text that had to add up correctly, and could only do so if all the text was correct. For this readson the very oldest fragments found from any of the books of the OT are still word for word today in the modern Hebrew texts. It only changes when you translate to say english ect. Even with this problem the OT has the highest accuracy rate of any ancient text ever found, compared to Homer, or Illiad, or Gilgamensh, ect.

Charles in Florida

 

[Trish1947]

Hello Charles, Listen I'm sorry it went down wrong road the other day. And can we start again with out debate, and get some serious questions answered for me? If your willing, and if I see that its going to get debateable, I will bow out of this thread.

Since we know that all of the original apostles we're the bearers of the Good News, and Jewish. Paul went to preach to the Gentiles,and in the Book of Reveleation it says "those that keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" are the ones that He has saved.

Might there be a chance that this is being said about two different sets of peoples that worship God in there own understanding? Gentiles, who are not having any other commandment placed upon them other than keeping the 10, which we do if we're walking in the Spirit. Because if we're walking in the Spirit, we are not aware of breaking any. And the Jews who have apparently lots of laws they feel need to be practiced, and the Gentiles feel that no other laws shall be laid upon them, other than the testimony of Jesus Christ.?

Because, none of us loves God anymore than the other, that I am throughly convienced, but we do not feel the calling of God to do all these other laws. And all of us have a zeal for God just as intense as the other. Some want to please Him in other ways, such as callings in their life and ministries. But still do not have the conviction to follow all those laws. And when I use the conviction, I mean, really led of the Lord to worry about them.

 

[AlabamaMan]

Just to let ya know Charles, if you are charismatic(meaning you believe the gifts of the Spirit are for today) then you are allowed to post here. There is no charismatic icon because you can be any denomination and be charismatic.

 

[IKTCA]

I lost all with a wrong click. Let me rewrite.

 

[Charlesinflorida]

Alabama man,

I do believe that the gifts are for today. I believe they are for the church of all ages. But at the same time, I believe they are administered differently perhaps than they might have been in the 1st century, and perhaps less frequently than in that time and there might be a reason for it. I will leave it at that, because I do not want to branch off into a different subject.

Charles in Florida

 

[Charlesinflorida]

Hello Charles, Listen I'm sorry it went down wrong road the other day. And can we start again with out debate, and get some serious questions answered for me? If your willing, and if I see that its going to get debateable, I will bow out of this thread.

Since we know that all of the original apostles we're the bearers of the Good News, and Jewish. Paul went to preach to the Gentiles,and in the Book of Reveleation it says "those that keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" are the ones that He has saved.

Might there be a chance that this is being said about two different sets of peoples that worship God in there own understanding? Gentiles, who are not having any other commandment placed upon them other than keeping the 10, which we do if we're walking in the Spirit. Because if we're walking in the Spirit, we are not aware of breaking any. And the Jews who have apparently lots of laws they feel need to be practiced, and the Gentiles feel that no other laws shall be laid upon them, other than the testimony of Jesus Christ.?

Because, none of us loves God anymore than the other, that I am throughly convienced, but we do not feel the calling of God to do all these other laws. And all of us have a zeal for God just as intense as the other. Some want to please Him in other ways, such as callings in their life and ministries. But still do not have the conviction to follow all those laws. And when I use the conviction, I mean, really led of the Lord to worry about them.

Trish,
No need to apologize to me. I was not offended and thought the discussion was a long way from becoming violent. We were exchanging ideas. However someone else must have been offended as the moderator from the Messianic forum was called in to control me (the thread) however you want to look at it. I was not offended in that either. Yaphet and I have another history between us from several years back. And I still think a lot of him and quote some of the things that I learned from him. (When I was the moderator and he was the poster)


Those who keep the comandments and have the testimony of Jesus. You ask if this could be a reference to two different groups, Jews and Gentiles. My answer is no, not in my opinion. Because to take that stand, develops two different means of salvation, one through obedience to Torah and one by faith in Gods grace. (Through Messiah) I do not see two methods in scripture. Only one exists. All those whose names are written in the book of life will have that because of Gods grace. Those in the OT times, will stand in judgment and by Gods grace they will be forgiven for their breaking the law, or failing to keep the law perectly, just as we are forgiven, though we break the law. This will happen because they confessed to God their failures and weakness and asked for and received his Mercy. In all things God is Just and each man will be judged according to the light which he has had. Consider how much more difficult it was for the Jew before Christ to look down the road and see the Messiah and salvation that he would bring. Even Paul could not see it at first and persecuted the church, until his flesh eyes were closed so that his spiritual eyes would have a chance to see. Then he needed to take 3 years to realign his understanding of what the scriptures meant. We have it so easy by comparrison.

So lets understand Paul when he speaks to the Galatians about them wanting to be under the law, Paul is speaking about those who beame so inthrawled with their new "Jewish like" social status that they had begun to take pride in they Torah obedience even to the point that they were beginning to think that they had earned their own salvation. To this Paul slaps them real hard.

What Paul is talking about is Legalism, what Sterns calls "Perverting Torah obedience into a system of legalistic observance of Torah commands.", in other words doing performing certain act, rituals observations with the expectation that it would result in your being saved.

This is much different tan where Paul talks about the Tanahk being perfect and good for reproof and training up in righteouness and establishing doctrine.

Obedience to Gods commandments is a response to faith, or graditude for grace already extended. I do not know why some are called to this and others are not. But I have come to my conclusion in opposition to the many sermons I have listened to from the pulpits of several denominations. It is not taught in the church. It sort of grows out of reading the word without the background clutter of all those sermons. That is difficult to do, because once we have learned something one way it is had to think of it from another angle.

I was reading through a book today and found this line which I like," Deeply held assumptions do not easily yield to the truth, even when confronted by scripture." Dr. James Broadway Has the Church fallen under a curse?


Charles in Florida

 

[Trish1947]

Charles the scripture that I quoted was with my understanding both groups had the testimony of Jesus Christ. One group, kept all the commandments, because its their religion to do so for millinia, and had no other. But others through the Spirit kept them also. Because they we're Pagan, and had no religion at all. But maybe I'm wrong about that. I have seen this being disgussed on the Messianic site. And was left to open debate.

The reason I question this is, Moshe received the ten, from the very finger of God. They are so basic to human relationships, and Himself.

But Moshe piled on all those others before his "revelation" and receiving of the ten. And I know that that had to happen to show us by keeping all those laws cannot save us. That we needed a savior. Moshe was not perfect, even God got a little displeased with him when he struck the rock.

So would it not be said that by Jesus comming he purified all things, including foods.

All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expediant, in other words I can eat all things, but not in front of someone that would be offened by concience sake. I dont want my brother to sin by condeming me for what I choose to eat.. Basicly this is what I'm getting at.

 

[Perceivence]

What have you to say to this, Charles?

8We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9We also know that [the] law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers--and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.

And the following Scripture in Colossians (I think you adressed it before, but I can't remember what you said):

13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having cancelled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

 

[IKTCA]

.

 

[Charlesinflorida]

Trish "But Moshe piled on all those others before his "revelation" and receiving of the ten. And I know that that had to happen to show us by keeping all those laws cannot save us. That we needed a savior. Moshe was not perfect, even God got a little displeased with him when he struck the rock."

This is a position that I have never heard before. It is accepted and belived that God Gave Moshe the entire word, not just the Ten. It would have taken some time to write down what God said, but all the law was given to him orally from the beginning. In fact the entire camp of Israel was given the ten as the covenant was presented to them before Moshe received the tablets. It was spoken in their ears, each man heard it.Moshe didn't add anything without Gods revelation. So I am not sure how this works in what you are saying. I am not sure how much longer tonight I will be on the net. I will check back later to continue our conversations.

PS Let me clarify that Moshe wrote the books I believe over the 38 years they wandered, because it contains also the historical events that took place on that journey. But this is an aside to the Law, Directions, and rulings given by God.Moshe wrote about things that occured long before his time Ie the Garden of Eden and Tower of Bable, things that continue to be verified by archeology today, and had to have been revealed to Him by the Lord.

CIF

 

[Trish1947]

This is a position that I have never heard before. It is accepted and belived that God Gave Moshe the entire word, not just the Ten. It would have taken some time to write down what God said, but all the law was given to him orally from the beginning

Did not Jesus chide the Pharasees by saying to them that "you put your trust in Moses, They trusted Moshe. But I tell you one greater than Moses is here". They we're fullfilling all the Laws of Moses because they thought that Moses was the ultimate Law giver. And we're not willing to listen to any other. Even though their very Redeemer was talking to them.

Then when Jesus spoke to the rich young ruler, when he asked "what must I do to to have eternal life, Jesus quoted just the ten commandments to him, (the Law of God), which he was following anyway, and probably food laws of Moshe also. But Jesus did not mention food laws period. but he asked him to do one more thing, to sell what he had and come and follow Him. But in his heart, ( where God deals with man now) he was not willing. This man followed the law to a tee since his youth, because he loved God. And was found lacking still. And that according to scripture made Jesus sad, that he wouldnt listen to the call of the spirit. There again it goes beyond the law. He mentioned nothing about food laws of Moshe, rituals, all those things that Moshe gave them. Just the ten. When you have Jesus, your taken beyond the Law, even the Ten. Forgive seventy times seven, sell what you have and follow me, minister here, go speak to that person, led to pray for a person, comfort that one, speak these words etc, being led by the spirit. It's a new life. Which can only be accomplished through the Spirit, by God dwelling in our hearts by faith. Its obediance to the call of the Spirit. Which is not subject to any law, or ever can be, according to the scriptures. We have been given a higher calling.

Galatians 5 v 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Abraham a Gentile knew this. His obediance to the Spirit of God was accounted to him as rightousness. Not the keeping of the Law. So it is with us.

And quite frankly, if your being led by the Spirit of God, you are too busy to break God's commandments, nor do you wish to. You have a new heart. All things have become new.

 

[Charlesinflorida]

Perceivence,

Your Question on I Tim 1

Our focus should be on the first statement, " The Law is good if used properly" which means as instructions in Righteousness. Paul answers this in II Tim3 [16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17] That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Paul is speaking only of Tanahk, for that was the scriptures that he had and that all believers had. By using the Tanahk for doctrine, reproof and instructions in righteousness we begin to be built up in our faith and strengthened in our resolve toward the things of God which leads us to bear fruit.

The law is for the unrighteous in I Tim 1, paul is making a statement that is repeated in many of his letters, that the unlearned, the sinful, have the law over them in a diferent fashion, it condemns their sin and brings death or beomes a sentence againt them. But for the one that is saved it brings him to repentence and salvation because it is used for reproof (a guide). If one lives by the Spirit the law has no negitive effect because he is doing the things contained in the law already and therefore finds only redundancy in what it says. For me Do not commit murder, has no great pressure on me, because by the spirit I do not hate anyone enough to kill them. All law, Gods or civil has its most active pressure on those who desire to break the law. It beomes a sentence against them. For the believers who have acepted Yeshua, their bill of offenses, the just charges against them for once breaking the law were dropped and nailed to the cross.

In the ase of Col 2 "Not allowing anyone to criticise you in regards to a holy day" ect. Paul s speaking to people who were trying to be obedient to Torah and were being criticised by Jewish believers and Jewish non believers who insisted that these Gentiles had no right to do these things without first converting to Judaism through circumcision. They were even being told in some places that they had to convert beore they could be saved. This was error and Paul said and I agree that Gentiles are grafted in throuh faith in Yeshua and do not need to become Jewish by circumcision.

CIF

 

[Charlesinflorida]

Did not Jesus chide the Pharasees by saying to them that "you put your trust in Moses, They trusted Moshe. But I tell you one greater than Moses is here". They we're fullfilling all the Laws of Moses because they thought that Moses was the ultimate Law giver. And we're not willing to listen to any other. Even though their very Redeemer was talking to them.

This would seem to be the case. It is true that they were faithul to the law and some did not recognise that Yeshua was the Messiah. Many expected and stil expect the Messiah we see in the prophecies of the second coming, a great a powerful warrior king. They did not perceive that Messiah would come two times. So they were being carful not to be misslead by anyone claiming to be Messiah. Please remember there were more who believed than did not believe.

Then when Jesus spoke to the rich young ruler, when he asked "what must I do to to have eternal life, Jesus quoted just the ten commandments to him, (the Law of God), which he was following anyway, and probably food laws of Moshe also. But Jesus did not mention food laws period.

Let me interupt here. Yeshua did not quote the entire law to him. He did not even quote all of the ten. He said enough to be recognised by the hearer as the law of Moshe. The Ten commanments are just the Chapter index to Torah.
Also you seem to think tat Moshe made up the food laws and that God didn't give them. But you are mistaken. God gave instructions to tell the people that these are clean food and you shall it of them... and these are not clean and you shall not eat any of these." God gave the Koshen law, ect. Clean and unclean even predate Moshe. Remember that Noach was told to bring on 2 each of the unclean and 7 each of the clean.

but he asked him to do one more thing, to sell what he had and come and follow Him. But in his heart, ( where God deals with man now) he was not willing. This man followed the law to a tee since his youth, because he loved God. And was found lacking still. And that according to scripture made Jesus sad, that he wouldnt listen to the call of the spirit. There again it goes beyond the law. He mentioned nothing about food laws of Moshe, rituals, all those things that Moshe gave them. Just the ten. When you have Jesus, your taken beyond the Law, even the Ten. Forgive seventy times seven, sell what you have and follow me, minister here, go speak to that person, led to pray for a person, comfort that one, speak these words etc, being led by the spirit. It's a new life. Which can only be accomplished through the Spirit, by God dwelling in our hearts by faith. Its obediance to the call of the Spirit. Which is not subject to any law, or ever can be, according to the scriptures. We have been given a higher calling.

The teaching of Yeshua bing the law into its popper perspective. He does not eliminate them

Galatians 5 v 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Because our list of sins against the law has been nailed to the cross, and we are now living out the law, through obedience from the heart. The law still stands as reproof and instruction.

Abraham a Gentile knew this. His obediance to the Spirit of God was accounted to him as rightousness. Not the keeping of the Law. So it is with us.

Gen 26: [5] Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

CIF

 

[Charlesinflorida]

Here is a cut and paste from David Stern Commentary. It migh provide some insights and references to various scruptures.Reference here is from I Tim 1:8,9


8 Misuses of the Torah include:

(1) Requiring Gentiles to observe aspects of the Torah that were meant only for Jews (Acts 15, 21; Ga 2:11–6:16; Co 2:16–23)

(2) Supposing that mere possession of the Torah guarantees personal salvation (Ro 2:17–3:31, 8:3; MJ 7:11–19)

(3) Regarding humanly determined traditions as Torah more authoritative than God’s Word itself (Mt 15:1–20, Mk 7:1–23)

(4) Ignoring the New Testament’s contribution to the understanding of the Torah (Mt 5:17–20, MJ 8:6)

(5) Using the Torah to lead people away from Yeshua instead of toward him, which is its purpose (Ro 10:4)

(6) Using the Torah as ground for boasting (Ro 3:27–31)

(7) Perverting the Torah into a legalistic system (Ro 3:19–26; Ga 2:16, 3:23)

(See notes to all these passages.) Proper uses, which the Torah itself intends, include building up Jewish peoplehood, trusting in Yeshua and living a holy life.
In the way the Torah itself intends. This phrase translates Greek nomimoÆs, “lawfully, according to law, legally.” Since “nomos” here means “Torah” (v. 7), the sense of “lawfully” is to be defined by the Torah itself, hence my rendering.

9 KJV renders the first part of this verse, “knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless”; compare New English Bible: “it [the Law] is not aimed at good citizens.” From this one might infer that good people don’t need to study the Torah or observe its precepts, which is neither true nor Sha’ul’s point. On the other hand, the Jerusalem Bible’s “laws are not framed for people who are good” (similarly New International Version, Today’s English Version) is also off-target, because Greek nomos here does not mean “law” in a general sense, but Torah (v. 7). For even though Sha’ul does switch sometimes from one meaning of “nomos” to another (as at Ro 7:21 and at several points in Galatians), in the present verse the sense is governed by Sha’ul’s use of the Greek word “dikaios,” which is for him a technical term, rendered here by the phrase, “a person whom God has declared righteous.” “Dikaios” does not mean merely someone who is good, but someone who has committed himself to Yeshua and whom God therefore regards as innocent (see Ga 2:16aN; also Ro 1:17, 5:19, 8:1–4; Ga 3:11; MJ 12:23).
Psalm 37:30–31 says,

“The mouth of the righteous speaks wisdom,
and his tongue discourses justice.
The Torah of God is in his heart.”

So only in some of its aspects is the Torah not for a person whom God has declared righteous. In its role as that which prescribes punishment and condemnation for offenses, shows people their sinfulness and guilt before God, and guides them away from trying to prove how good they are and toward trusting in Yeshua the Messiah (Ro 2:12, 7:7–25, 9:30–10:4; Ga 3:17–25 and notes to these passages) the Torah is for those who are heedless of Torah in its role for the righteous.
The word for “those who are heedless of Torah” is Greek anomois (see 2 Th 2:3N). Sha’ul enjoys harping on a word, using it over and over in a short passage. Here he uses “nomos” or a derivative five times in vv. 7–9. As with “nomimoÆs” in v. 8, the specific sense of this word is controlled by the context, in which “nomos” means “Torah,” so that the rendering “lawless” captures only some of the sense. At 1C 9:21, “anomois” is translated, “those outside the framework of Torah,” meaning a category of Gentiles (see note there). Here “anomois” seems to include Jews who live lives as if there were no Torah.
Those who are heedless of Torah, Gentiles outside its framework or Jews who put themselves there, are, because they do not yet trust God and are still controlled by their old nature, rebellious, ungodly and sinful, wicked and worldly (compare Ro 7:7–8:13, Ga 5:13–26). From such a disposition flow all manner of vices, such as those listed; compare Mk 7:20–22; Ro 1:28–32; 1C 5:9–11, 6:9–10; 2C 12:20–21; Ga 5:19–21.
The Jewish New Testament Commentary, (Clarksville, MD: Jewish New Testament Publications) 1996.

 

[Trish1947]

Well there is one thing that we have agreed on, and that is to disagree. I have said about as much as I can say on the subject. I'm not going to change your mind about what I have received, and I'm certainly not going to change yours, so we will leave it at that..

 

[Charlesinflorida]

Trish,

When a person comes to salvation is he not supposed to quit doing the sinful things that he once did? If he was a drunkard and sexually immoral wouldn't he be expected to change?

And this change, would it come about in him because the spirit awakens him to the fact that he is living in a sinful lifestyle, and would not he come to the knowledge of sin by the law?

My answer would be that in most cases, the law would bring him to understand that he was sinning. And through repentence and surrendering his life in that area to the work of the Holy Spirit, he would change his sinful ways.

CIF

 

[Trish1947]

Trish,

When a person comes to salvation is he not supposed to quit doing the sinful things that he once did? If he was a drunkard and sexually immoral wouldn't he be expected to change?

And this change, would it come about in him because the spirit awakens him to the fact that he is living in a sinful lifestyle, and would not he come to the knowledge of sin by the law?

My answer would be that in most cases, the law would bring him to understand that he was sinning. And through repentence and surrendering his life in that area to the work of the Holy Spirit, he would change his sinful ways.

CIF

Well this I can agree on. But it is a new life he gives you. I no longer have that driving desire to sin, I have the desire to serve God. I dont go out and sin because He saved me. Thats not what the Gospel is about. He set me free from the law of sin and death to serve the living God. Thats not to say that we are not able to sin. Again your choices have not been removed. We're to walk in newness of of that Life that was sacrificed for you.