A dialogue between Floridians, but

[Charlesinflorida]

I agree too with that. But some of us have things that are always nagging at us; the besetting sin. The law of sin and death is the pattern where we sin without being able to resist the power of the flesh, and that sin brings about death through separation from God. Newness of the spirit is wonderful yet I have counciled with lots of believers who were spirit filled and yet had issues in their lives that they wrestled with. The way we get free from this is by submitting that area of our life to God and allowing the spirit to permanently write Gods law upon it so that what the law requires becomes the life in the spirit that we are living.

But the point I was tryng to make above is that the law teaches us what is sin and what is acceptable, what is holy and what is vile. If we see a brother that is committing sin, he may not be aware of it. But if we show him the law, his sin is revealed because sin IS the breaking of the law. After he is made aware of the sin, the spirit is now able to work in him to bring about repentence and cleansing.

So what if the church, who is the ones whom God has entrusted with his word, goes around telling people that it is no longer a sin to be homosexual. How then will anyone practicing homosexuality ever come to repentence? They won't, unless they read the word and discover for themselves that God says its an abomination and that those who practice it will never enter into his kingdom, as it is plainly stated.

Now, here is what the church has done; they have set ALL of Gods law aside and made everything a matter of concensus where Gods standard no longer matters. What matters now is the general opinion of the people. But Christianity is not a demoncracy. It is a theocracy. And the God who said "you are not to have sex with another man (or woman)" is also the God who said, "you are not to eat pork for it is unclean to you". He is also the God who said, "you are not to worship me in the way that the Pagans worship their gods", and "you shall honor my sabbath and keep it holy."

The God we worship said, "do not commit murder" He also said " You are to kep these feasts throughout all your generatons." We do not have the right to change Gods law. Yeshua said "These sayings (Commandments) that I have given you come not from me but from my father who sent me".

John 14:[20] At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. [21] He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. [22] Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? [23] Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. [24] He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
CIF

 

[Trish1947]

I agree that the church is becoming to compromising on things that are clearly stated is sin. We are being asked by the world to accept our sin and we will accept Jesus and be your friend. We're not placed on this earth to compromise with the world. We're to preach Jesus, and tell them the wages of sin is death, but the gift of life is Jesus Christ who will forgive you if you repent. I dont believe in loving them into the Kingdom. We still have the remnants of the "love" generation on this earth, and that will not save you. "Your o.k. I'm o.k." doctrine. I long for the days of Billy Sunday, and ministers like him that told it how it is. If you dont repent your lost. Repentance don't mean gee I hate this sin, but there's nothing I can do about it. Repentance means to "turn around, stop doing it. But now alot of people are just "sorry" for it. I'm not saying that there is not left over things in a persons life, that have to be delt with by submission to God and cleansing. We're not to settle or compromise it.

 

[Charlesinflorida]

Yes, I too long or those days. But you see by the church teaching that God no longer cares about the things written in the law, the church has attempted to wipe out sin by doing away with the Law which defines what sin is. No rules, nothing to break, so you are OK and I am OK.

I want to show you something interesting. Paul knew that there was a great danger in misunderstanding the message of Yeshua, that the spirit would help us to live as the law required, but that was not license to live without restraint. He also knew that the Gentiles could really run off the wrong direction if they were not properly instructed in Torah, and therefore the Jerusalem council ACT 15 directs them to study Moshe (Torah) in the synaogues every Sabbath. And this potential error of neglecting Gods commandments plays right into the end times senario, because the "Great Apostasy" the falling away from sound doctrine (Which is established through the Tanahk (II Tim 3:16) is what allows the Antichrist to come into power. In the NT Paul speaks of Torah using the Greek word Nomos, or law. But there are variation in his word as in the article I provided above. But if we simply remember that when Paul says "Law" he is speaking of Torah and that Torah means instruction then we can get some astounding insights into todays church please observe:

II The 2 1 But in connection with the coming of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah and our gathering together to meet him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to be easily shaken in your thinking or anxious because of a spirit or a spoken message or a letter supposedly from us claiming that the Day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way.
For the Day will not come until after the Apostasy has come and the man who separates himself from Torah has been revealed, the one destined for doom. 4 He will oppose himself to everything that people call a god or make an object of worship; he will put himself above them all, so that he will sit in the Temple of God and proclaim that he himself is God.
5 Don’t you remember that when I was still with you, I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, so that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For already this separating from Torah is at work secretly, but it will be secretly only until he who is restraining is out of the way. 8 Then the one who embodies separation from Torah will be revealed, the one whom the Lord Yeshua will slay with the breath of his mouthand destroy by the glory of his coming.
9 When this man who avoids Torah comes, the Adversary will give him the power to work all kinds of false miracles, signs and wonders. 10 He will enable him to deceive, in all kinds of wicked ways, those who are headed for destruction because they would not receive the love of the truth that could have saved them. 11 This is why God is causing them to go astray, so that they will believe the Lie. 12 The result will be that all who have not believed the truth, but have taken their pleasure in wickedness, will be condemned.
The Jewish New Testament, (Clarksville, MD: Jewish New Testament Publications) 1996.

What if THE LIE is that Torah is not for the church that God no longer cares about sin because it is all covered in Jesus. The Church separated itself rom Torah when the church of Jerusalem was scattered and the Church in Rome took over the leadership. Look what happened after that, how Pagan ritual was added, and holy wars were put into action. The church beame the harlot of Revelation, and has not fully recovered yet. This is why it is very important to realize that the true church of the last days "Keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Yeshua the Messiah" they do both.

CIF

 

[Trish1947]

Well that is certainly an interesting concept. But it's not quite what I understand fully. I do know that the church is becoming apostate, they are leaving their first love. They are starting to compromise with the world. They are becoming more interested in world affairs and than the great commission. But wheather it's against the Tora spacificly, I dont know if I agree with that.


I'm not saying that all churches are apostate. There are many people coming to the Lord and being set free. The great calling of God is still going on, And I do believe that there will be a great outpouring of Gods Spirit before the end of the age.

Maybe the scripture "not by might, nor by power, but by MY Spirit" will come to pass and save many.

 

[Charlesinflorida]

Certainly there are pockets of true faith. God always preserves a remnant. I do not think it has ever been entrusted to main line denominations through. It always seems to be some small groups of home fellowships or independants. When man gets into the mix and trying to institutionalize it, it becomes dead religion. They want to make a doctrine out of things that God is doing spontaneously and then use that doctrine like it is all of the entire council of God.

Man also chases after experience. They want that Holy Ghost thrill ride no matter where it is or what it is. That is why so many strange things can pop up and become such a hot item like the "Gold dust" and the "Laughter blessing" and all that other stuff than tend to run wild from time to time in Charismatic circles. Yet God is more slow and steady than that. That's why the simple things like family devotions and prayer and living by his simple standards is really what counts.

In Judaism it is said that when a man stands in judgment before God in the last day, the first question is not, " what did you believe", but "how did you conduct your business affairs?" He is really more concerned about our daily lives than our theology. And this is where Torah is real important, because it sets the framework for our lives. Torah is a lifestyle, a way of living in community and as family. It is not a laundry list of things that need our attention in order to earn our salvation. It is an instruction book for successful living as a part of Gods redeemed community, Both JEW and GENTILE.

Numbers 15:15,16, "One ordinance shall be for you of the assembly and for the stranger who dwells with you, an ordinance forever throughout your generations; as you are, so shall the stranger be before the Lord. One law and one custom shall be for you and for the stranger who dwells with you."

CIF

 

[Trish1947]

Is it your understanding then, that the only way to get back to the basics is for the ones to be in entrusted with the Gospel is those that practice Messianic Judaism and that is the one church that can get it done right?

I said I was going to ask hard questions here, to get down to what this conversation is all about.

 

[Charlesinflorida]

That IS sort of a loaded question. Luther saw the corruption and twisted doctrine of the Catholic church and posted his 95 points, starting a move that was to be a return to the first church. Except it only went part way. The Anabaptists did the same and that went a bit further. The pentecostals moved it a bit more toward the original as did the charismatic movement. At this time the Messianic church, has made the closest ever move back to the 1st century church of Palestine. Problem here is that not all Messiancs are the same, as it is not a denomination and has no central "steering commitee". So there are Messianics who have gone too Rabbinical and others that are just what I call "Churches wearing a Kippah", that is to say they like the Jewish things and do some of them, but are still just Sunday believers with no real depth. They have a form of Godliness but deny the real power therein.

The final and most important revival in the bible prophecies is the one that embraces and brings in the Jews. For the most part christianity has failed to do that. There are too many things in the Chistian faith that are an affront to Jewish understanding. And as for our churches wearing Kippahs who pretend to be Hebraic, they are hated by the Jews as being the most dangerous kind of missionary. There is open hatred for them in Israel. The only church to really have what is needed is the one that I have been advocating or the last 7 years or more, which is a refounding of the church in Palestine that existed through the wars of 70 AD and in a scattered form since then in private fellowships. It is that very same church that in the begining brought in untold thousands of Jews, because it was Judaism, with the revelation that Yeshua was the Messiah. It is Torah observant, feast keeping, and takes the words of Yeshua and Paul literally. That church is the one who will cause the revival in Israel that ushers in the return of Messiah. IMO.

Can other churches be entrusted with the word? Sure, but they only want to be entrusted with the parts they like. They want to pick and choose and make up their own rules. This sets a limit on what God can do in them or through them.

Charles in Florida

 

[Trish1947]

Well I have never been one to beat around the bush.. LOL. You seen to have something to say. But it's been here a little and there a little, and really not quite clear what your trying to say.

It seems that you have set the standard on what is acceptable with God and what is not according to your understanding of the scriptures. But do you know what is in each chruch members heart? I would have to say no. The churches are full of people that hold the truth in hypocracy, and as you stated in yours also. So since God deals with a mans heart, how can you know it? Maybe the Lord is only taking a few here and a few there, some out of each organized church. Like it says in the Bible to the Letters to the 7 churches, there are some that have not bowed down to Baal. But He knows who they are. We cant just assume that everyone is going down the tubes here.

I mean Jonah, sat and was waiting for the distruction of Niniveh, and the Lord said basicly what are you doing? I have 7,000 people that belong to me. But he wasn't aware of it.

 

[Charlesinflorida]

I believe that you are correct that there are good folks in ALL churches and that Gods judgement is what matters. However I am not setting the standard in any way, as you suggest I am. I am yielding to God's stated standard as much as possible in my own life.

Trish, If one takes Gods word in its simplest straight forward meaning, without the traditions of the church to cloud our understanding, and then if we stand before the judgment we can say "Lord I read your word and did my best to be obedient to it."

On the other hand if we coast along trusting that someone else in the church history had it all figured out for us, and then in front of the judgment seat we find we were in error, all we can say is"I know what your word says, but the church leaders told me it didn't mean anything any more and I believed them." Well God may have mercy, but I would rather be able to say "Lord I did what your word said."

Maybe this is just a human way of looking at it, but that what I am.

You see, there is a cost in following God rather than the crowd. Because once you see the truth, it is had to go back to the tradition. I know that God neer aborgated the Sabbath. And the church followed that Sabbath until Constantine in 318 AD made it a law that you had to worship all gods on the day that the sun god Mithra was worshipped, on Sun-day. And God says you are "not to worship me in the way that the Pagans worship their Gods". And the pophecies say that the evil one "will change times and seasons", (Sabbaths and feast days) then how can I now go back?

It is impossible. And Sabbath is just the tip of the iceberg. It is huge. Almost everything the church does in pactice is Pagan based. This is not flaming, or whatever, this is the truth and well documented. Most clergymen who have been to semanary will admit to it but say they are powerless to do anything about it. Because they are sponsored into the ministry and if they speak out they loose their ordination and ministry backing. They loose their jobs. Do a google search for Constantines church, or Mithra, or origins of Christmas. Any of those should get you to tons of historical documents and articles about the changes that were made to the christian church beginning in 300AD. You will also find writings by the church fathers that will shock you. Look for a writing by Martin Luther called "On Jews and their lies" and see what the heart of the leader of protestantism really was.

God didn't change his plan through Messiah. He brought it to fruition. Yeshua didn't destroy the law, (Gods instructions) he brought them to their full meaning.

Most Christians look forward to the coming Kingdom, but do not realize that in that Kingdom the promise is that the Torah (law) will go forth from Tzion and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. And the nations will flow unto Gods mountain and say teach us your ways Oh lord, teach me your Law, (Torah)

CIF

 

[Trish1947]

Trish, If one takes Gods word in its simplest straight forward meaning, without the traditions of the church to cloud our understanding, and then if we stand before the judgment we can say "Lord I read your word and did my best to be obedient to it."

Gee Charles, we're right back to square one again.. I can't say "Lord I did my best to be obediant to it".. my best will never be good enough.

The only thing I can say at judgement is, Jesus did His best and WAS obediant to it.... for ME.!!!

I'm saved by His life, not my own.

Our only right standing with God I have is because of His Sons life. Nothing that I can do will add to it, as far as salvation. When God looks at me, he sees His Son in me, His life. His life consisted of fulfilling the law, and nailing it to the cross, that I might accept His life as sufficient for God. And be justified by His Life, and his death, and resurrection.

There is therefore no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus that walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh. If you accept Christ, you have fulfilled the law. Because He already did. Now I'm free to serve God in the Spirit and faith.

 

[Charlesinflorida]

Gee Charles, we're right back to square one again.. I can't say "Lord I did my best to be obediant to it".. my best will never be good enough.

Believers who have trusted Gods Grace thorugh Messiah will not stand in judgment in regards to salvation. That is finished. We will all still give an accounting for how we conducted our lives after that in regards to rewards crowns ect.

Our only right standing with God I have is because of His Sons life. Nothing that I can do will add to it, as far as salvation. When God looks at me, he sees His Son in me, His life. His life consisted of fulfilling the law, and nailing it to the cross, that I might accept His life as sufficient for God. And be justified by His Life, and his death, and resurrection.

Here is a mistake that you continue making. While I agree with what you said above in the first and second line, you are not correct in the third line. Jesus did not nail the law, Old Covenant, ect to the cross. Look at the verse in scripture. What he nailed to the cross was the list of sins against us for breaking the laws, (written in ordanances) In those days when Rome executed someone, a list of the charges against them was hung on their cross. It was the list of violations against the law. In the case of the believers, our list of breaking Gods law is nailed to the tree with Yeshua.

Secondly you still do not seem to understand what Jesus was saying when he said that he came to fulfill the law. The word used means "to make full to bring something to its fulness, to properly orient, to establish in fulness." He brought Torah back to the heart where it was meant to be all along. He was unshackling it from religion. He follows this statement with many examples of what he meant saying " You have heard it of old that you shall not commit murder, but I say to you, if you have hatred in your heart for another without cause you have already killed him in your heart and are guilty" He frames many examples over and over fulilling, properly orienting, establishing in fulness what the Torah means. And in this fulness it is much harder than what the legalistic system of religion was making it out to be. Jesus did not make the law go away, he made it 1000 times more difficult, because he said that it was what you felt in your heart that really mattered, because your actions will grow out of what you feel.

There is therefore no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus that walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh. If you accept Christ, you have fulfilled the law. Because He already did. Now I'm free to serve God in the Spirit and faith.

No Trish, this is part of the big lie. What you are saying is like my anouncement in another thread where I stated, I had recently crossed the US by hiway and had not broken the speed limit once. Therefore all speed limits are revoked and nobody needs to obey the speed limits anymore."

He did do away with them, he did not destroy them (Jesus's own words), he brought them to their full meaning. This is what he says. Please Trish, do an indepth study of that passage in Mat 5. Get out your strongs concordance and see what he is saying. The church teaches a lie.

If God sent his son to die to remove the penalty for sin, which we deserved, by removing the list of our violations from our record, are we then free to continue in sin all the more? Heavens no! That would be like asking Yeshua to turn around and take another couple lashes with the whip for us. Once you have tasted of the heavenly gift and if you turn away, then what hope is there for you. You would be crucifying the lord of Glory again.

We can only keep the law, and be obedient to God by allowing the Spirit of Yeshua to live in us and through us. Then we must submit our old natures to the cross to die every day so that the new man can live instead.

In Romans 8 it says that the carnal man can not please God, that he is emnity against God, because his mind is not subject to the laws of God! Can't you see that Paul teaches the same thing as Yeshua. Our minds must be "Subject to the law (Torah) of God." We must live according to his instructions, and the only way to do this is to daily crucify our flesh and be led of the spirit. Then our minds ARE suject to the law of God and we do those things that are contained in the law.

You see Trish, If this were not so, then God made a nation out of Israel and had them obey the Law, for no reason. He could have just taken Pagans from all over the world and just forgiven them, and allowed them to remain Pagans, just lower the bar so everybody is OK now just come on into heaven. Messiah then suffered and died for nothing, because the minute he died, God abolished the law and any record of anyone ever breaking the law, he lowered the standard so that everyone can just walk right in. Yeshua was not needed at all. God could just say, "Forget the whole thing. Everybody stay as you are do what you want, I accept you all just as you are." He didn't need the Jews to be a nation of priests, he didn't need the Torah or Moshe or the prophets and he didn't need to send his son to a terrible death. He only needed to loosen up a bit and open up the gates.

This is the absurd lie the church teaches. It is an insult to God.

CIF

 

[Trish1947]

It is now the commandment of love Charles, by the ministration of the Spirits Law. And yes I do believe he nailed it to the Cross to establish another.


Hebrews 7 11

If therefore, perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people recieved the law) what futher need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchizedek, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

15. And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchizedek there ariseith another priest (Jesus)
16. Who is made not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

Chptr 8 v.13 In that he saieth, A new covenant he hath made the first old, Now that which decayeith and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Chptr 10:15 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit , offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

So therefore, you have been made a new creature, by the receiving of His Son, whereby we cry, Abba Father.

This is the thing Charles, Jesus gave us a "new law"

"A new commandment I give you. That you love one another." This can only be accomplished by the receiving of His life, and the ministation of the Holy Spirit. It is a far better law, not contained in ordenences, or rules, or observance of feast days, Holy days, food laws, those now are shadows, and vanishing away.

If your walking by the Spirits law to love one another, you are fulfilling the Spirits Law

Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty, only use not your liberty for an occasion of the flesh.

We are free to serve the Living God. If your being led by the Holy Spirit, how can you be displeasing God in any way.

If I'm loving my brother through the eternal Spirit, how can I commit adultry, or covet, or steal, or place idols before me, or not honor my parents, honor the sabbath, etc. If I'm walking in the Spirit of God, I'm not doing these things, nor do I want to. But its done through the ministration of the Holy Spirit that dwells in me, not the written law.

If you are led of the Spirit, you are the Sons of God.

Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ.


I am trusting the ministration of the Spirit to complete me as he has promised.

I reposted this from another thread. I dont see how we can possibly deny that there is a new commandment set forth from Jesus.

 

[Charlesinflorida]

Well said and I agree.

CIF