A Conversation of Faith with Sam Harris

zippy2006

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In Mahayana Buddhism, there is also the doctrine of skillfull means. We're all at different places in understanding, and all teachings are provisional due to the nature of Dharma.

I think one substantial difference is that for Christianity doctrine is normative and regulates praxis, whereas for Buddhists praxis is normative and regulates doctrine. I don't think it was always that way for Christianity, but it has surely been that way for a long time. Even the Christians who would say, "lex orandi, lex credendi"--which in this context would mean that the form of belief flows from the practice of prayer--must still acknowledge that Christian prayer tends to be more conceptually framed than Buddhist meditation. This is true even when the difference between the liturgies is not drastically different.

That was Nagarjuna's aim: not to correct doctrine for the sake of doctrine/truth, but to correct doctrine because it had fallen out of sync with Buddhist praxis, and praxis is what was truly normative for him. That link between the conceptual life of the mind (belief) and the embodied life of the human being (practice) is not denied by Buddhists, it's just that the conceptual life is the one that gets subordinated rather than vice versa.
 
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That was Nagarjuna's aim: not to correct doctrine for the sake of doctrine/truth, but to correct doctrine because it had fallen out of sync with Buddhist praxis, and praxis is what was truly normative for him. That link between the conceptual life of the mind (belief) and the embodied life of the human being (practice) is not denied by Buddhists, it's just that the conceptual life is the one that gets subordinated rather than vice versa.

Exactly. That's the beauty of that approach, too. Embodied living is real life. The only issue for me is how do I live more and more in that place authentically. I don't see Christianity offering a path into it, generally. It offers alot of distractions, like an augmented reality of alot of extraneous, and potentially misleading concepts.

I think one substantial difference is that for Christianity doctrine is normative and regulates praxis, whereas for Buddhists praxis is normative and regulates doctrine. I don't think it was always that way for Christianity, but it has surely been that way for a long time.

Of course this is likely true, and is evidence by studying church history. Some of the Church Fathers seemed to not be as concerned about notions such as orthodoxy. Christians just read that into their texts after the fact.

Even in its history, there have been Christian sects such as the Quakers that have focused on praxis driving and even superceeding doctrine, which makes it very unique for western religions.

Even the Christians who would say, "lex orandi, lex credendi"--which in this context would mean that the form of belief flows from the practice of prayer--must still acknowledge that Christian prayer tends to be more conceptually framed than Buddhist meditation. This is true even when the difference between the liturgies is not drastically different.

I think you are generally onto something though meditation is not the only conceivable practice in Buddhism. It is a central practice in Zen, but even here, there are periphreal practices that support the central practice.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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I think one substantial difference is that for Christianity doctrine is normative and regulates praxis, whereas for Buddhists praxis is normative and regulates doctrine. I don't think it was always that way for Christianity, but it has surely been that way for a long time. Even the Christians who would say, "lex orandi, lex credendi"--which in this context would mean that the form of belief flows from the practice of prayer--must still acknowledge that Christian prayer tends to be more conceptually framed than Buddhist meditation. This is true even when the difference between the liturgies is not drastically different.

That was Nagarjuna's aim: not to correct doctrine for the sake of doctrine/truth, but to correct doctrine because it had fallen out of sync with Buddhist praxis, and praxis is what was truly normative for him. That link between the conceptual life of the mind (belief) and the embodied life of the human being (practice) is not denied by Buddhists, it's just that the conceptual life is the one that gets subordinated rather than vice versa.
I always think of Nagarjuna as at heart really a Sceptic in the Greek mould. It doesn't seem to me as if he thinks we can really know, as all our knowing remains void too, but genuine not-knowing leads to 'knowledge'. Almost flux too. You can really see the Greek influence on Mahayana Buddhism. I find it weird that moderns so like to accrue Buddhism to their worldview, as at heart it is quite inimical to Scientific Method. It is how Buddhism had cachet back between the wars, when Europe was listless and rootless. There is a great bit in TS Elliot where the Fire Sermon of seeking non-attachment is coupled 'nothing with nothing' and burning Carthage, as we rush to look for a replacement to the fading West. The fact is that if you accept a scientific-derived Determinism, then you don't reach the Sunyata of Buddhism, but just the negation of your work so far.

Ah well. Shantih Shantih Shantih and all that. More often I think, Westerners see false friends and the Buddhist monks aren't particularly bothered to point it out.
 
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FireDragon76

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I always think of Nagarjuna as at heart really a Sceptic in the Greek mould. It doesn't seem to me as if he thinks we can really know, as all our knowing remains void too, but genuine not-knowing leads to 'knowledge'. Almost flux too. You can really see the Greek influence on Mahayana Buddhism. I find it weird that moderns so like to accrue Buddhism to their worldview, as at heart it is quite inimical to Scientific Method. It is how Buddhism had cachet back between the wars, when Europe was listless and rootless. There is a great bit in TS Elliot where the Fire Sermon of seeking non-attachment is coupled 'nothing with nothing' and burning Carthage, as we rush to look for a replacement to the fading West. The fact is that if you accept a scientific-derived Determinism, then you don't reach the Sunyata of Buddhism, but just the negation of your work so far.

Ah well. Shantih Shantih Shantih and all that. More often I think, Westerners see false friends and the Buddhist monks aren't particularly bothered to point it out.

Nagarjuna really isn't all that more problematic than Eastern Orthodox hesychastic theology when it comes to so-called "skepticism".

Is Christianity really all that much science-friendly, or is that just the narrative that the West tells itself? The largest industrialized nation in the world, and the one most impacted by Christianity, also tends to have policies dedicated to science-denial.

"Shanti shanti shanti" is Hinduism, not Buddhism.
 
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Is Christianity really all that much science-friendly, or is that just the narrative that the West tells itself?
Well, what do you mean by friendly? For that matter, what do you mean by Science? The only times that something that is clearly akin to our idea of Science arose, was in Mediaeval Europe and Islamic Transoxiana. What they have in common is Abrahamic religion and Aristotle. For Science as a systematic body of empirically derived knowledge, requires certain ground rules like assuming some sort of Order in existence; that description of it results in understanding of it; that sense-data has some validity; etc. Abrahamic religion is particularly suited to these assumptions in a way that Dharmic religions, or Taoism, or Meso-American religions are not. We can't say for sure as there are many factors, but it is really not coincidence that Scientific Method was the work of Franciscan monks, nor that Churchmen are over-represented amongst great Scientists, I think. People are fast and loose by the term Science today though, so that for instance Medicine is often lumped with it, while Modern Medicine with its Evidence-Based paradigm actually repudiates Scientific Method entirely. Regardless, knowledge of Aristotle spread into both China and India, but neither of these developed a scientific tradition, so the Abrahamic grounding seems significant.
The largest industrialized nation in the world, and the one most impacted by Christianity, also tends to have policies dedicated to science-denial.
What do you mean by Science-denial? That is just a political shibboleth thrown about, a nice piece of propaganda. Are Flat Earthers or Global Warming denialists or Antivaxxers refusing Scientific method? No, they just try and craft alternative interpretations to support their chosen hypotheses (though often far-fetched it is true). What is really meant is denial of Scientific Consensus. Now what of it? The consensus has often been wrong, and those that went against it - Copernicus, Vessalius, Harvey, Newton, Lavousier, Einstein, Goddard, etc. are today lauded, though often vilified in their own time by many of their colleagues. The very structure of Scientific enquiry is that it is to be doubted, so that it is tested again and again, to craft a more robust form. The evidence for man-made climate alteration is much better today than back when Gore made his misjudged documentary because of such - and certain objections raised are valid up to a point, such as that we were anyway in a natural warming cycle - that were also dismissed back then.

How you can connect Christianity to 'Science-denial' is beyond me, except by a fallacy of association? I think the data is usually clear enough, but people pick and choose what data they want to use, and then label those that disagree with that version the denialists. It is similar to how opponents of female suffrage were labeled misogynistic, or how the Soviets called everything they don't like Imperialism or Fascism. It usually just amounts to an appeal to authority, as with epidemiologists that are lionised today. That is why Medicine considers expert opinion and consensus the weakest form of evidence, as once you adopted a deductive framework, many of its inductive reasonings fell away. Even then though, it still needs to be filtered through the presentation thereof. This is more a political issue, than a conceptual denial of Science, and labelling something Science-denial is really just vacuous if you investigate it. It is actually just a species of Tribalism.

"Shanti shanti shanti" is Hinduism, not Buddhism.
I was referencing Elliot's Wasteland, in order to refer to all western Orientalism - that is more often than not, more about the West holding a mirror to itself, than about the East. I only know of this through the prism of my Western Education anyway. Think of the Beatles seeing an Indian Guru, or Harris on Buddhism, or stage magicians affecting to have learned the art from the mysterious East. The best parody of this, was Ace Ventura in a Tibetan monastery, where he ran his slinky down the copious steps. It is actually decidedly silly.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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That's too bad.

I don't always understand where you are coming from, but I believe you are a person of good character.

Oh, I don't know about that. If I were truly a person of good character and of sound mind, would I be "mindful" that I think the God of the Old Testament (and Jesus, too) was generally justified in doing all of the supposedly terrible things that today's Zeitgeist so quickly condemns?

Whatever the case may be, I do appreciate that Sam Harris is mindful of the value of our need for a spiritual journey. That's always good to see and hear. :cool:
 
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FireDragon76

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Oh, I don't know about that. If I were truly a person of good character and of sound mind, would I be "mindful" that I think the God of the Old Testament (and Jesus, too) was generally justified in doing all of the supposedly terrible things that today's Zeitgeist so quickly condemns?

Considering many scholars and historians don't even believe those events actually happened, a more pertinent question is how you think those narratives relate to Christian ethics, I suppose.
 
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Well, what do you mean by friendly? For that matter, what do you mean by Science? The only times that something that is clearly akin to our idea of Science arose, was in Mediaeval Europe and Islamic Transoxiana. What they have in common is Abrahamic religion and Aristotle. For Science as a systematic body of empirically derived knowledge, requires certain ground rules like assuming some sort of Order in existence; that description of it results in understanding of it; that sense-data has some validity; etc. Abrahamic religion is particularly suited to these assumptions in a way that Dharmic religions, or Taoism, or Meso-American religions are not.

This sounds like the old, tired notion that western civilization is inherently superior, as if other cultures didn't also believe in an ordered universe (they did).

You may not be aware but many technologies that we have come to associate with European civilization were actually invented or discovered in China or India.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Considering many scholars and historians don't even believe those events actually happened, a more pertinent question is how you think those narratives relate to Christian ethics, I suppose.

On a practice level of ethics, I suppose that the Scriptures of Old support the notion that humanity needs to repent of its sins and live righteously before a Holy God. The writing of the New Testament would follow up with this and insist that those who follow Christ strive to be more Christ-like in showing mercy, grace, compassion, altruism and love to all neighbors of the world. Moreover, from a Christian perspective, humanity as a whole, too, would need to be told to not only turn away from evil but to stop building institutions that fail to bring forth God's Holiness into the public sphere or that work against the Christian Faith on the whole.

As for the "many" scholars and historians who do not believe that various accounts in the Bible ever actually happened, then I guess Christian Ethics won't be something they'll be able to subscribe to, at least not in a total kind of way.
 
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On a practice level of ethics, I suppose that the Scriptures of Old support the notion that humanity needs to repent of its sins and live righteously before a Holy God. The writing of the New Testament would follow up with this and insist that those who follow Christ strive to be more Christ-like in showing mercy, grace, compassion, altruism and love to all neighbors of the world. Moreover, from a Christian perspective, humanity as a whole, too, would need to be told to not only turn away from evil but to stop building institutions that fail to bring forth God's Holiness into the public sphere or that work against the Christian Faith on the whole.

As for the "many" scholars and historians who do not believe that various accounts in the Bible ever actually happened, then I guess Christian Ethics won't be something they'll be able to subscribe to, at least not in total kind of way.

On the contrary, there are alot of Christian theologians and clergy in mainline Protestant and even Catholic churches that do believe they subscribe to Christian ethics, despite acknowledging that the Old Testament's historiography contains much of what amounts to legends and redactions motivated by politics and later theological considerations.
 
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On the contrary, there are alot of Christian theologians and clergy in mainline Protestant and even Catholic churches that do believe they subscribe to Christian ethics, despite acknowledging that the Old Testament's historiography contains much of what amounts to legends and redactions motivated by politics and later theological considerations.

And on the contrary to your contrary, there's the simple speech act of saying that there are Christian theologians and clergy who "believe" that they subscribe to Christian Ethics, and then there's the fuller reality beyond our speech acts containing those Christian theologians and clergy who actually do subscribe to Christian Ethics. Of course, I do realize that in the overall conversation regarding some field of study called "Christian Ethics," there will be disagreements as to what fully constitutes Christian Ethics and being that is the case, I refrain from decisively saying that other Christians are definitely either acting fully in or outside of Christian Ethics.

More so, I would simply say that I expect there to be those persons who claim to be Christian yet fail to fully subscribe to Christian Ethics. In fact, I'm probably at fault to some extent of being one of them.
 
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And on the contrary to your contrary, there's the simple speech act of saying that there are Christian theologians and clergy who "believe" that they subscribe to Christian Ethics, and then there's the fuller reality beyond our speech acts containing those Christian theologians and clergy who actually do subscribe to Christian Ethics. Of course, I do realize that in the overall conversation regarding some field of study called "Christian Ethics," there will be disagreements as to what fully constitutes Christian Ethics and being that is the case, I refrain from decisively saying that other Christians are definitely either acting fully in or outside of Christian Ethics.

More so, I would simply say that I expect there to be those persons who claim to be Christian yet fail to fully subscribe to Christian Ethics. In fact, I'm probably at fault to some extent of being one of them.

Surely you can see the point that believing much of the Old Testament is legendary doesn't necessarily causally correlate to a rejection of what has been widely understood as Christian ethics?
 
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This sounds like the old, tired notion that western civilization is inherently superior, as if other cultures didn't also believe in an ordered universe (they did).

You may not be aware but many technologies that we have come to associate with European civilization were actually invented or discovered in China or India.
I nowhere said anything about 'inherently superior'. Don't go running at windmills. Regardless, the only times something akin to Science arose was Europe and Transoxiana (the latter petering out). This scientific tradition is a big factor in Europe dominating the world and responsible for the high level of material civilisation we currently enjoy. This is indisputable. China and India never developed it, and their ideas of Order is not material-based or empirically supportable (as was my point that you ignored) - for instance, Indian philosophy doubted the senses itself, while Western philosophy tends to assert it; or Chinese Li or Confucianism stresses harmony and tend to an ultimate coherence, not that specific factors can be investigated and explicated - and importantly, manipulated. If you see something in history arising in different cultures, it is not far-fetched to look for commonalities to see why - a form of convergent evolution, like how both Europe and Japan developed full feudal systems of land-tenure and obligation. In this latter case, the break-up of a centralised state into local powers and the geographic barriers are quite good explanations; and in the case of the rise of Science, Abrahamic religion and Aristotle are the best reasons I can see. Unless you have a better explanation why this is the case?
 
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Surely you can see the point that believing much of the Old Testament is legendary doesn't necessarily causally correlate to a rejection of what has been widely understood as Christian ethics?

On a certain primary level. Sure. But if the Old Testament commands to "Help the Stranger among you..." are legendary, along with the Exodus and other ethical whatnot extending from Moses to David, then I'm thinking that Jesus would likewise be just another historical "non-entity" that I wouldn't really need to heed on the ethical plane.
 
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On a certain primary level. Sure. But if the Old Testament commands to "Help the Stranger among you..." are legendary, along with the Exodus and other ethical whatnot extending from Moses to David, then I'm thinking that Jesus would likewise be just another historical "non-entity" that I wouldn't really need to heed on the ethical plane.

People can derive meaning from shared myths without necessarily acknowledging them as historical fact.

The mythicist interpretation of Jesus is the outlier among historians. Even something like the Jesus Seminar doesn't believe Jesus was an historical "non-entity", and that the New Testament contains an historical core about the life of Jesus (a core that I would also acknowledge), so I think that objection is mostly a straw man.
 
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People can derive meaning from shared myths without necessarily acknowledging them as historical fact.

The mythicist interpretation of Jesus is the outlier among historians. Even something like the Jesus Seminar doesn't believe Jesus was an historical "non-entity", and that the New Testament contains an historical core about the life of Jesus (a core that I would also acknowledge), so I think that objection is mostly a straw man.

From my perspective, my objection above would only be a "strawman" if there is indeed a substantially shared meaning derived from the Old Testament. The problem, though is that I can't just assume that people indeed DO derive the SAME meanings from shared myths. So, sorry if I will continue to disagree with you since I think you're misrepresenting my position. Don't do that. I don't appreciate your jumping the conclusion.
 
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I've thought about this discussion more and I think the Rev. Colglazier has a deeper understanding of religion than Sam Harris. I also think this ties in to deeper problems I am beginning to see in Harris' character. Despite dabbling in Buddhism and being a self-proclaimed mindfulness practitioner, he doesn't seem to seriously engaging with the broader wisdom tradition within Buddhism (he doesn't talk about values like compassion, kindness, etc., which are just as important as mindfulness), nor has he allowed it to challenge his basic materialist outlook on the world.
 
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I nowhere said anything about 'inherently superior'. Don't go running at windmills. Regardless, the only times something akin to Science arose was Europe and Transoxiana (the latter petering out). This scientific tradition is a big factor in Europe dominating the world and responsible for the high level of material civilisation we currently enjoy. This is indisputable. China and India never developed it, and their ideas of Order is not material-based or empirically supportable (as was my point that you ignored) - for instance, Indian philosophy doubted the senses itself, while Western philosophy tends to assert it; or Chinese Li or Confucianism stresses harmony and tend to an ultimate coherence, not that specific factors can be investigated and explicated - and importantly, manipulated. If you see something in history arising in different cultures, it is not far-fetched to look for commonalities to see why - a form of convergent evolution, like how both Europe and Japan developed full feudal systems of land-tenure and obligation. In this latter case, the break-up of a centralised state into local powers and the geographic barriers are quite good explanations; and in the case of the rise of Science, Abrahamic religion and Aristotle are the best reasons I can see. Unless you have a better explanation why this is the case?


Perhaps science is studying a world that is not as it appears to be:



I think that's an interesting perspective (Dr. Hoffman has a PhD from MIT and has published over 200 academic papers), and certainly doesn't fit well with evangelical Christians conceptualizations of the absolute transcendence of God creating a universe outside and apart from Himself, though it might be closer to Hindu, Buddhist, Shinto, or Whiteheadian perspectives.

I haven't completely discounted Alfred North Whitehead's views about God and panentheism, but I think classical Christian theology and spirituality, rooted in Greek thought, is done. In light of Dr. Hoffman's analysis, I can see how Whitehead, who was a mathematical genius, had already seen the writing on the wall that the science of the day (and perhaps ours) couldn't answer some fundamental questions about reality.
 
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