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A conversation about unity.

Strong in Him

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To call the Church’s teachings “erroneous” is to accuse Christ Himself of falsehood, for He promised, “The gates of Hell shall not prevail against it” (Matthew 16:18)
The church, yes. Not the Catholic church.
Scripture doesn't say that Jesus was talking of the Catholic church in Matthew 16:18 - i is your own clergy who have taught you that.
and “He who hears you hears Me” (Luke 10:16).
Spoken to the 72 who were sent out - not to the 12 disciples, nor Peter alone.
If you reject the Church’s teaching, you reject the means by which Christ communicates saving truth.
No. Jesus chose 12 disciples to be with him so that they could preach the Good News. He continued to teach the disciples after the resurrection because he knew that some of them would be writing the Gospels.

Christ IS truth. He communicates this through the Bible and the Holy Spirit - his word and his Spirit are also truth. Many people who do not go to Catholic churches still have the truth of the Gospel and are saved.
“Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you” (John 6:53). That is not metaphor. That is dogma.
Yes, Christ's body and blood - not the teachings of the Catholic church.
To reject the Church is to reject Christ.
Not at all.
I've never attended a Catholic church - except for the odd ecumenical service. I don't agree with the teachings of the church.
I can assure you there is no way I have rejected Christ.

“If he refuses to listen even to the Church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector” (Matthew 18:17). That is not metaphor.
No, it's Scripture taken out of context and misapplied.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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That doesn't make sense. The Catholic, Orthodox, Syrian, and Ethiopian Churches each believe they are the true church and preserve the original teachings and practices of Christianity. @2PhiloVoid is right, good reason begs to differ. Some AI help:

Roman Catholic Church​

  • The Roman Catholic Church believes it is the one true church founded by Jesus Christ, with the Pope as the successor of Saint Peter. It emphasizes the importance of apostolic succession, sacraments, and the authority of the Church in interpreting Scripture.

Orthodox Church​

  • The Eastern Orthodox Church also considers itself the true church, maintaining that it preserves the original teachings and traditions of Christianity as handed down from the apostles. It emphasizes the importance of the seven ecumenical councils and the continuity of the faith through the ages.

Syrian Orthodox Church​

  • The Syrian Orthodox Church views itself as the true church, rooted in the apostolic tradition and the teachings of the early church fathers. It emphasizes its Miaphysite theology and the importance of its unique liturgical practices and heritage.

Ethiopian Orthodox Church​

  • The Ethiopian Orthodox Church believes it is the true church, with a direct lineage to the early Christian community established by Saint Frumentius. It holds a strong sense of national identity intertwined with its faith, emphasizing its unique traditions and practices.
Unity will never be realized until all these "true" churches, and others, gain some humility.

It's almost like the Thirty Years' War never truly ended................................... not that it didn't, but it feels that way sometimes. :rolleyes:
 
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Hentenza

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You presume error where the Church teaches infallibly. The Catholic Church does not “spoon feed” doctrine; she transmits divine revelation safeguarded by the Holy Spirit. The First Vatican Council (1870) dogmatically defined that “the Roman Pontiff, when he speaks ex cathedra… possesses that infallibility with which the divine Redeemer willed His Church to be endowed” (Pastor Aeternus, ch. 4; DS 3074). You may reject this authority, but you cannot refute it by mere assertion.

To call the Church’s teachings “erroneous” is to accuse Christ Himself of falsehood, for He promised, “The gates of Hell shall not prevail against it” (Matthew 16:18) and “He who hears you hears Me” (Luke 10:16). The Magisterium does not invent truth; it guards and articulates what God has revealed. Your claim betrays ignorance of the Church’s doctrinal foundations and the rigorous theological tradition that undergirds them.

You speak as though your private judgement supersedes two millennia of apostolic continuity. That is not intellectual courage—it is spiritual presumption. The Church does not appeal to sentiment or manipulation; she appeals to reason illuminated by grace. As Dei Filius affirms, “faith is not a blind sentiment of religion springing from the depths of the soul… but a genuine assent of the intellect to truth received by hearing” (ch. 3; DS 3010).

If you reject the Church’s teaching, you reject the means by which Christ communicates saving truth. You may call it “spoon feeding,” but it is in fact the nourishment of eternal life. “Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you” (John 6:53). That is not metaphor. That is dogma. And it is not yours to dismiss.


You appeal to Scripture while dismissing dogma, yet Scripture itself presupposes the authority of the Church to define dogma. You ask where one must believe a “particular dogma” to receive grace—yet the very act of believing in Christ entails assent to His teaching, His sacraments, and His Church. To isolate the resurrection as the sole necessary belief is to mutilate the Gospel and reduce Christ to a slogan. “He who hears you hears Me” (Luke 10:16) was spoken to the apostles, whose successors define dogma not arbitrarily, but as guardians of divine revelation.

You demand a verse that lists dogmas as prerequisites for grace. That is a category error. Grace is freely offered, but not received apart from faith rightly ordered. “Without faith it is impossible to please God” (Hebrews 11:6), and that faith is not generic—it is ecclesial, sacramental, and doctrinal. The Council of Trent (Session VI, ch. 7) teaches: “Justification… must proceed from the predisposing grace of God… whereby man is moved to believe those things which are divinely revealed.” That includes the Trinity, the Incarnation, the Real Presence, and the authority of the Church.

You cannot receive Christ while rejecting what He instituted. “Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you” (John 6:53) is not optional. It is dogma. The Eucharist is not a symbolic add-on—it is the source and summit of Christian life (cf. Lumen Gentium, §11). To deny it is to deny Christ’s own words. Likewise, baptism is not a suggestion: “Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God” (John 3:5). That is dogma. That is grace mediated through sacrament.

You cannot pit Scripture against dogma, for dogma is the Church’s authoritative interpretation of Scripture. To reject dogma is to reject the Church. To reject the Church is to reject Christ. “If he refuses to listen even to the Church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector” (Matthew 18:17). That is not metaphor. That is ecclesial judgement. You may claim to believe in Christ—but if you reject what He taught through His Church, your belief is self-fashioned, not salvific.

I shall leave the rest of your reply unanswered because answering it will in all likelihood be unfruitful.
I’m not a member of the RCC so your appeal does not resonate with me. You guys are welcomed to your beliefs and am welcomed to mine. Your church has no influence on my salvation since only God imparts grace.

I still love my Catholic brethren and wish you peace and blessings.
 
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Hentenza

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That doesn't make sense. The Catholic, Orthodox, Syrian, and Ethiopian Churches each believe they are the true church and preserve the original teachings and practices of Christianity. @2PhiloVoid is right, good reason begs to differ. Some AI help:

Roman Catholic Church​

  • The Roman Catholic Church believes it is the one true church founded by Jesus Christ, with the Pope as the successor of Saint Peter. It emphasizes the importance of apostolic succession, sacraments, and the authority of the Church in interpreting Scripture.

Orthodox Church​

  • The Eastern Orthodox Church also considers itself the true church, maintaining that it preserves the original teachings and traditions of Christianity as handed down from the apostles. It emphasizes the importance of the seven ecumenical councils and the continuity of the faith through the ages.

Syrian Orthodox Church​

  • The Syrian Orthodox Church views itself as the true church, rooted in the apostolic tradition and the teachings of the early church fathers. It emphasizes its Miaphysite theology and the importance of its unique liturgical practices and heritage.

Ethiopian Orthodox Church​

  • The Ethiopian Orthodox Church believes it is the true church, with a direct lineage to the early Christian community established by Saint Frumentius. It holds a strong sense of national identity intertwined with its faith, emphasizing its unique traditions and practices.
Unity will never be realized until all these "true" churches, and others, gain some humility.
Great summary. The claims of being “the one” to the exclusion of every other Christian church in the world becomes one of the wedges that prevent unifying the body of Christ.
 
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Strong in Him

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What is this sudden onslaught of Catholic righteous indignation and posturing??? You weren't doing this a while back. No, you seemed to be more ecumenically inclined. Was all of that just a put on? A facade?
Sadly, I have seen several posts from Catholics which start off, "tell me what you think ...." and a short time later become, "well you're wrong; only the Catholic church is correct."

I have noticed this with a few others topics as well.
It feels like they don't really want to know what we think, only to say that we're wrong/don't have the truth.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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I’m not a member of the RCC so your appeal does not resonate with me. You guys are welcomed to your beliefs and am welcomed to mine. Your church has no influence on my salvation since only God imparts grace.

I still love my Catholic brethren and wish you peace and blessings.
wasn't it you who complained that Catholics have "closed communion", yet now you say Catholics are welcome to their beliefs. If that welcome is genuine then why the complaint about communion?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Sadly, I have seen several posts from Catholics which start off, "tell me what you think ...." and a short time later become, "well you're wrong; only the Catholic church is correct."

I have noticed this with a few others topics as well.
It feels like they don't really want to know what we think, only to say that we're wrong/don't have the truth.

Yeah. That's usually called 'baiting.' It shouldn't be something Christians seek to do use as a means of discussion.
 
  • Agree
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Hentenza

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wasn't it you who complained that Catholics have "closed communion", yet now you say Catholics are welcome to their beliefs. If that welcome is genuine then why the complaint about communion?
Really? Just because I said that Catholics are welcomed to their beliefs does not change the fact that some need to be changed to be more welcoming. Closed communion is one.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Not all who claim to be Churches are really part of The Church.

Yes... but the 7 were - and faced loosing the anointing.

5 Therefore, remember from where you have fallen, and repent, and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and I will remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent.
 
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concretecamper

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Yes... but the 7 were - and faced loosing the anointing.

5 Therefore, remember from where you have fallen, and repent, and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and I will remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent.
Yep, humanity brings it to the edge, but the divinely instituted Church is still around
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Really? Just because I said that Catholics are welcomed to their beliefs does not change the fact that some need to be changed to be more welcoming. Closed communion is one.
The OP is where I'd rather dwell.
 
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Hentenza

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concretecamper

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Show me where it says the RCC. You do know that the early churches were independent churches right?
The term "Roman Catholic Church" was first used by the protestant rebellion. It is the Catholic Church
Through Baptism a p rein becomes part of His body not just part of the RCC. A baptism in the name of the Son, the Father, and the Holy Spirit is valid in any church not just yours.
Only if validity done
Almost correct. God must call us to repentance first (soften our hearts) before we can believe.
I am correct. God calls everyone, only some answer.
 
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concretecamper

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Protestant churches baptise as well, you know.
I think most denominations do.
Only a few Baptize with water in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit with the intention of removing original sin.

And many validity baptized so eventually reject His Church.
 
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concretecamper

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That doesn't make sense. The Catholic, Orthodox, Syrian, and Ethiopian Churches each believe they are the true church and preserve the original teachings and practices of Christianity. @2PhiloVoid is right, good reason begs to differ. Some AI help:

Roman Catholic Church​

  • The Roman Catholic Church believes it is the one true church founded by Jesus Christ, with the Pope as the successor of Saint Peter. It emphasizes the importance of apostolic succession, sacraments, and the authority of the Church in interpreting Scripture.

Orthodox Church​

  • The Eastern Orthodox Church also considers itself the true church, maintaining that it preserves the original teachings and traditions of Christianity as handed down from the apostles. It emphasizes the importance of the seven ecumenical councils and the continuity of the faith through the ages.

Syrian Orthodox Church​

  • The Syrian Orthodox Church views itself as the true church, rooted in the apostolic tradition and the teachings of the early church fathers. It emphasizes its Miaphysite theology and the importance of its unique liturgical practices and heritage.

Ethiopian Orthodox Church​

  • The Ethiopian Orthodox Church believes it is the true church, with a direct lineage to the early Christian community established by Saint Frumentius. It holds a strong sense of national identity intertwined with its faith, emphasizing its unique traditions and practices.
Unity will never be realized until all these "true" churches, and others, gain some humility.
Funny, all who have separated from His Church refer to themselves under a different name than the "Catholic Church", the name first used for His Church at the turn of the first century. Sort of tells you something, they are something different than His Church
 
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Hentenza

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The term "Roman Catholic Church" was first used by the protestant rebellion. It is the Catholic Church

Only if validity done

I am correct. God calls everyone, only some answer.
Your opinion doesn’t count.
 
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public hermit

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Funny, all who have separated from His Church refer to themselves under a different name than the "Catholic Church", the name first used at the turn of the first century. Sort of tells you something, doesn't it.

No, it doesn't tell anything. Most of us still confess the catholic church, just not the Roman Catholic church.
 
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RileyG

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Ah yes,..... just one church/building out of all of them is correct, the rest around the world are just false.

As if a building meant anything with Jesus.
It’s not the building. It’s the mystical Body of Christ.
 
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