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A conversation about unity.

ARBITER01

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They are not seeking unity with Jesus, they are seeking unity with their doctrine.
 
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A New Dawn

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I know when Jesus is teaching me things, and this is not one of those times.
This may not be one of those teachable moments, but it might still be wise to pray that people will come to an understanding of unity the way God would like to see it embraced.
 
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childeye 2

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The simplicity of abiding in Christ <---His body, the Catholic/Universal Church:
Unity in the Holy Spirit = Love God with all your heart mind and soul and love your neighbor as yourself.

John 13:33-35

33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.

34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

1 John 2:5-10

5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.

8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.

9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.

10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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And, again, you missed the MOST important which is unity in Christ.
You mentioned that before - but if one is a Christian then one is in Christ and hence there is as much unity as that allows.
He happens to be the reason for anything we do and the existential reason for ALL of our churches.
Yet being a Christian doesn't mean we agree on doctrine, sacraments, and governance does it?
Do you think that your definition of unity is going to get you to Heaven any different than us poor Protestants?
Why do you think that church unity has anything whatever to do with Protestants going to heaven?
 
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A New Dawn

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You mentioned that before - but if one is a Christian then one is in Christ and hence there is as much unity as that allows.

Yet being a Christian doesn't mean we agree on doctrine, sacraments, and governance does it?
And how much unity does that allow? The question is important because your post (that several of us here quoted and spoke to) was based on unity of doctrine and governance and other manmade principles. So is it you who doesn't allow unity because you place doctrine, etc., above all else? The church you attend?

Why do you think that church unity has anything whatever to do with Protestants going to heaven?

Because you believe the sacraments to be salvific, don’t you?
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Paul says that we - believers - have EVERY spiritual blessing in Christ, Ephesians 1:3.
The condition for those blessings is being in Christ, not receiving the Eucharist.
So, when Christ commands us to do so because He has not put limits on Grace and Forgiveness, who are we to say we don't need it or it is valueless, to the point of rejecting and despising the Eucharist?
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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I don't understand.
I imagine not, and I hope you never see it. He became very ill; growled like an wild animal, and fled from the Altar. I was serving Mass with Pastor that Sunday, assisting with the distribution; very disturbing for all present.
 
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A New Dawn

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So, when Christ commands us to do so because He has not put limits on Grace and Forgiveness, who are we to say we don't need it or it is valueless, to the point of rejecting and despising the Eucharist?
“This do in remembrance of Me” is exactly what we are doing. Christ didn’t suggest there was anything magical or supernatural in the partaking.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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When church was shut down because of covid and I had to take communion at home, I decided to go with Lutheran instruction on how to do that. This is the short video I went by:

The other synod, this is heretical, heterodox and invalid. LCMS, LCC and all the members of the ILC condemn this practice.
 
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Strong in Him

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So, when Christ commands us to do so because He has not put limits on Grace and Forgiveness, who are we to say we don't need it or it is valueless, to the point of rejecting and despising the Eucharist?
I doubt that anyone has said they reject and despise the Eucharist.

I said something like, "I don't need it in order to experience God's grace and love".
What I meant was that God gives these to me every day - every morning when I awake and thank him for another new day. (I have got into the habit of thanking God for a new day, new opportunities and new blessings, before I do anything else.) At that moment I am in communion, or fellowship, with God - though I am not breaking bread or what the church would call "taking communion".

God's love, grace and mercies are not connected with, or limited to, taking part in the Eucharist. FWIW, I love the communion service and try to take it whenever I can. But I am in communion - fellowship - with God every day.
 
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childeye 2

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And, again, you missed the MOST important which is unity in Christ. He happens to be the reason for anything we do and the existential reason for ALL of our churches.
I believe Paul is saying the same thing here:

1 Corinthians 12:18-20

18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?
20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.

1 Corinthians 12:12
For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

1 Corinthians 10:15-17

15 I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say.

16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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What about it would they find unacceptable? Is it far removed from the rest of Protestant theology?
For starters, the Primacy of the Pope; he is the Bishop of Rome, primate of their communion, but no more than that. Another big one is their emphasis on works and earning merit for ones self, a loved one or a departed loved one. They still grant indulgences. Requesting the intercession of saints.

The Eucharist, Baptism, Confession and Holy Absolution, and even the value of the divine office are, for the most part, aligned with Scripture.
 
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Hentenza

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You mentioned that before - but if one is a Christian then one is in Christ and hence there is as much unity as that allows.
What do you mean as that allows?
Yet being a Christian doesn't mean we agree on doctrine, sacraments, and governance does it?
Nope but that should not preclude unity. Saying that your church’s teachings are the only one is elitist and promotes disunity. I don’t care for your church’s teachings, although both of us are orthodox Christians. I don’t see your church’s governance in the Holy Scriptures and some of your church’s doctrines are questionable at best.
Why do you think that church unity has anything whatever to do with Protestants going to heaven?
Did you not read the question? Here it is again.

“Do you think that your definition of unity is going to get you to Heaven any different than us poor Protestants?”

The question is about your definition of unity in relation with salvation. Is your church’s governance going to get you into Heaven any different than my church’s governance? Is your version of the sacraments going to get you into heaven any different than my church’s version of the sacraments? Is your church’s version of orthodox doctrine going to get you into heaven any different that my church’s version of orthodox doctrine?
 
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ozso

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Wow.
 
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ozso

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I imagine not, and I hope you never see it. He became very ill; growled like an wild animal, and fled from the Altar. I was serving Mass with Pastor that Sunday, assisting with the distribution; very disturbing for all present.
What I mean is why is it accessible to someone possessed by a demon, but barred to a Christian indwelt by the Holy Spirit?
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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And how much unity does that allow?
Experience will tell you. How much unity do you have with Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans, Anglicans, Baptists, Presbyterians and so forth? Not enough to be in the same church?
The question is important because your post (that several of us here quoted and spoke to) was based on unity of doctrine and governance
Those things are divine gifts, not, as you are soon to say "man made".
and other manmade principles. So is it you who doesn't allow unity because you place doctrine, etc., above all else? The church you attend?



Because you believe the sacraments to be salvific, don’t you?
The sacraments are gifts from God; it would be at best discourteous to denigrate them.
 
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ozso

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The other synod, this is heretical, heterodox and invalid. LCMS, LCC and all the members of the ILC condemn this practice.
According to what I looked up there are at least dozens of synods just in North America. And obviously various Lutheran synods reject other Lutheran synods. Looks to be a bit of a mess.
 
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