A code needs a coder.

[SteveB28]

I hate to tell you this but you're not a chosen believer. You're an unspiritual man who will die mocking God's creation.

Uh-oh.......there are rules here sir, as I have found to my cost. You might find yourself in hot water making those pronouncements.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

What would happen after that?

Natural selection.

Survival and reproduction to pass on the DNA, including the mutations.
Or not.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

So, why is it not a code?

I'm not sure how my post could possibly confuse you.

It's not a code (in the sense of the C++ code that results in MS Excel, for example), because in reality it is actually just a molecule engaged in a chemical reaction.

Not unlike any other molecule engaged in a chemical reaction.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I don't think so.
C++ is not a code. It makes code.

No, it's not.
It's a programming language. It's what you use to produce code. Writing C++ = to code.

When we talk about the stuff being written in C++, we talk about "the code".

But DNA is an object, it could be represented by a complex code.

You can symbolically represent molecules (and atoms, and pretty much any other physical object) by a data structure, yes.

So what?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

You need to pay closer attention, my reply was not to him asking for clarification, he asked for that in a prior post. It was to him saying he didn't know how to measure complexity.

Right. In response to "is x more complex then y?".
In order to be able to answer that question, one would have to define "complexity" and have appropriate means to measure it.

So, can you define the word and explain how to measure it?
Because if not, one can wonder what the point of your question is...

Most agree on what is complex and what is not

Really?
Why don't you humor us and explain it, then...

...nothing complicated about it, so when, out of convenience, someone loses their ability to reason the simple, I naturally believe that equals dancing around it.

Then perhaps assume that we are just idiots and need you to explain it to us.

So... what is "complexity", how does it objectively differ from "simplicity" and how does one measure the "level of complexity"?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

That's pretty much a coloring book answer.

No. It's the actual answer.

You asked how this process unfolds considering beneficial mutations are rare.
The answer is: natural selection.

It keeps the good, discards the bad and doesn't care about the neutral.
This is how stability is maintained and adaption is guaranteed.
This is how species don't go extinct after 5 generations of bad mutations.

Because those with the bad mutations tend to not survive / reproduce.
While those with good mutations tend to survive / reproduce more frequently.

Natural selection.

It's not hard.

 

[juvenissun]

I'm saying that conferring a certain definition on something to serve an agenda does nothing to help our understanding of the natural world.

It may not.
But it may serve what the agenda is made for. And it is not inaccurate.

 

[juvenissun]

Is the process of a couple of hydrogen atoms bonding with an oxygen atom a 'code'....?

It could certainly be coded.

 

[juvenissun]

Natural selection.

Survival and reproduction to pass on the DNA, including the mutations.
Or not.

OK, what does this "selection" do to human?

 

[juvenissun]

No, it's not.
It's a programming language. It's what you use to produce code. Writing C++ = to code.

When we talk about the stuff being written in C++, we talk about "the code".



You can symbolically represent molecules (and atoms, and pretty much any other physical object) by a data structure, yes.

So what?

So, DNA is a code.

 

[SteveB28]

It could certainly be coded.

That isn't what I asked. Focus please......

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

OK, what does this "selection" do to human?

What kind of a question is that?
Selection doesn't "do" anything. It's a conceptual term to describe something that inevitably happens in real life.

Some individuals survive till breeding age and reproduce, thereby passing on and spreading their (mutated) genes.
Then we say that these genes "have been selected for".

Other individuals don't survive or don't reproduce. Their genes have been "selected against".

What does this process result in?
Well... it results in mutated DNA being spread to more individuals generation after generation, until they achieve fixation.

It's how a single change in a single individual can end up being present in every individual, after a certain amount of generations.

Why is this so hard to comprehend?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

So, DNA is a code.

It's like talking to a wall...

 

[juvenissun]

What kind of a question is that?
Selection doesn't "do" anything. It's a conceptual term to describe something that inevitably happens in real life.

So, conceptually, what inevitably happen to human by mutation?
How about realistically?

 

[juvenissun]

It's like talking to a wall...

That is someone or something you can not pass.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

So, conceptually, what inevitably happen to human by mutation?
How about realistically?

It's explained in the post you are replying to. And it doesn't just apply to humans. It applies to all species.

 

[juvenissun]

It's explained in the post you are replying to. And it doesn't just apply to humans. It applies to all species.

Do we have an example of mutations which lead to fixation?
On human? On non-human?

Or, this is a "conceptual" understanding after all?

 

[Kenny'sID]

Right. In response to "is x more complex then y?".
In order to be able to answer that question, one would have to define "complexity" and have appropriate means to measure it.

So, can you define the word and explain how to measure it?
Because if not, one can wonder what the point of your question is...

Really? Why don't you humor us and explain it, then...

Then perhaps assume that we are just idiots and need you to explain it to us.

So... what is "complexity", how does it objectively differ from "simplicity" and how does one measure the "level of complexity"?

There's all that talk again. Take it this way, twist it around that way, then turn it under sideways down, and add a few more words until you have convinced yourself you really have a point. The epitome of Atheist speak.

You mean try to explain something to someone who is working so very hard not to understand it? I don't see any reason to bother... If you want to pretend you don't know what complex means in order to shut down a legitimate line of reasoning, then that's what you choose to do. But convince me and maybe some others that you have a legit argument to carry that out.... no.

What is complexity? How to measure it? By what others see as complex. See, most people don't have to measure it...they look at it and go, oh my, that's complex! lol. I mean you can't be serious with this line of questioning, but alas, I think you really are.

So easy, at least until one throws common sense out the door because it doesn't work for them at the moment and contrariness does, or so they think.

You seem to need the help, so I'm inclined to make you aware...this pretending stuff your doing here, I've seen a lot of Atheists do it, but you are taking the cake. Since you continue your nonsense, I have to assume you are unable to see most see through you immediately. But do go on if you must, it's interesting if one is in the mood that is, to watch those twists and turns, as someone tries to turn the obvious into something else.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Do we have an example of mutations which lead to fixation?

Fixation just means becoming established in a population, like lactose tolerance, trichromatic vision, and sickle-cell disease, among thousands of others.

 

[juvenissun]

Fixation just means becoming established in a population, like lactose tolerance, trichromatic vision, and sickle-cell disease, among thousands of others.

OK, thanks.
Now the target is smaller.

How do we know a population with, for example, lactose tolerance is caused by successful mutations?

A related question: Are we observing some of the fixation processes on going?