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HitchSlap

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OK, thanks.
Now the target is smaller.

How do we know a population with, for example, lactose tolerance is caused by successful mutations?

A related question: Are we observing some of the fixation processes on going?
The default position for the human genome is lactose intolerance (why would human mammals ever need to metabolize another mammal's milk?), it's actually a mutation that allows humans to successfully synthesize lactase, the enzyme necessary to metabolize lactose.

Evolution in action!

http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt...unit-how-did-humans-develop-lactose-tolerance
 
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FreeinChrist

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Oh my goodness! When there is an obviously problematic member, please do not engage the person in conversation for pages and pages. It makes the clean up so much more work and can make the staffer real unhappy. Just report that person who is off topic.​
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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A related question: Are we observing some of the fixation processes on going?
Probably. There are lots of mutations that are not widespread. For example, a relatively recent mutation has been discovered that gives some immunity to HIV. It's possible that this could become fixed in populations at risk of HIV where HIV medication is not, or is only sparsely, available. It's not fixed until it, as the name suggests, is, for all intents and purposes, permanently established in the population, so you only know with hindsight.
 
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juvenissun

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The default position for the human genome is lactose intolerance (why would human mammals ever need to metabolize another mammal's milk?), it's actually a mutation that allows humans to successfully synthesize lactase, the enzyme necessary to metabolize lactose.

Evolution in action!

http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt...unit-how-did-humans-develop-lactose-tolerance

How do we know this is true?
There are still many people who are still lactose intolerable. Why?
 
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HitchSlap

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There are also some people with blue eyes. Why?


How do we know this is true?
There are still many people who are still lactose intolerable. Why?
"The ability to digest lactose into adulthood (lactase persistence) would have only been useful to humans after the invention of animal husbandry and the domestication of animal species that could provide a consistent source of milk. Hunter-gatherer populations before theNeolithic revolution were overwhelmingly lactose intolerant,[17][18] as are modern hunter-gatherers. Genetic studies suggest that the oldest mutations associated with lactase persistence only reached appreciable levels in human populations in the last 10,000 years.[2][19] Therefore, lactase persistence is often cited as an example of both recent human evolution[20][21] and, as lactase persistence is a genetic trait but animal husbandry a cultural trait, gene-culture coevolution in the mutual human-animal symbiosis initiated with the advent of agriculture.[22] In Northern European populations, the spread of the lactase-persistence allele is most closely correlated with positive selection due to added vitamin D into the diet. Whereas in African populations, where vitamin D deficiency is not as much of an issue, the spread of the allele is most closely correlated with the added calories and nutrition from pastoralism.[2]"
 
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juvenissun

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Probably. There are lots of mutations that are not widespread. For example, a relatively recent mutation has been discovered that gives some immunity to HIV. It's possible that this could become fixed in populations at risk of HIV where HIV medication is not, or is only sparsely, available. It's not fixed until it, as the name suggests, is, for all intents and purposes, permanently established in the population, so you only know with hindsight.

Attribute this kind of special feature to mutation sounds too simple and too convenient. Is there any solid observation that this process is happening?

Remember those cellulose-eating bacteria? What would happen to those bacteria that eventually became used to the cellulose diet, once the cellular material is taken away and give them back the original food they ate?
 
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juvenissun

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Genetic studies suggest that the oldest mutations associated with lactase persistence only reached appreciable levels in human populations in the last 10,000 years.[2][19]

Why does the studies only suggest, but not prove? What is the uncertainties and limitations and how serious are they?

And how do they know hunter and gatherer population were predominantly lactose intolerated?

Sorry, I keep pounding you with questions. That is how I drill down an issue of unknown. If you said you do not know, then I would stop.
 
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HitchSlap

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Why does the studies only suggest, but not prove? What is the uncertainties and limitations and how serious are they?

And how do they know hunter and gatherer population were predominantly lactose intolerated?
Genomes.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Attribute this kind of special feature to mutation sounds too simple and too convenient. Is there any solid observation that this process is happening?
Some people are known to have immunity to HIV and they also have dual copies of a mutated gene that changes a cell receptor protein that HIV needs to infect cells. See The Evolving Genetics of HIV. Occasionally it is that simple.

Remember those cellulose-eating bacteria? What would happen to those bacteria that eventually became used to the cellulose diet, once the cellular material is taken away and give them back the original food they ate?
I don't know the details of those. Probably they'd revert to metabolising the old diet. It depends on what has changed - if they evolved a cellulose breakdown pathway in addition to the existing pathways (a new enzyme perhaps), they might be able to just switch the old system back on (some bacteria have 'switchable' metabolic pathways, depending on what's available). If their existing pathway(s) had been substantially modified, they'd need to repopulate from regressive mutants. Or they might die out - but, in general, the populations are so large and reproduce so rapidly, with a consequently large number of genetic variations, that I'd expect them to persist.
 
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jayem

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A related question: Are we observing some of the fixation processes on going?

Absolutely we are. Keep in mind that natural selection favors traits that promote reproductive success within a given environment. I bolded that because environmental change is the far greater driver of evolution. And one thing we are observing is evolution of bacteria. We are in an environment where antibiotics are widely used--and very likely overused. We are seeing bacterial populations changing. Those strains that--due to genetic mutations are resistant to current antibiotics--are proliferating. This is micro-evolution, but it is an early step in how new species eventually appear. It is natural selection at work right in front of us.
 
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juvenissun

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FrumiousBandersnatch

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juvenissun

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Absolutely we are. Keep in mind that natural selection favors traits that promote reproductive success within a given environment. I bolded that because environmental change is the far greater driver of evolution. And one thing we are observing is evolution of bacteria. We are in an environment where antibiotics are widely used--and very likely overused. We are seeing bacterial populations changing. Those strains that--due to genetic mutations are resistant to current antibiotics--are proliferating. This is micro-evolution, but it is an early step in how new species eventually appear. It is natural selection at work right in front of us.

In fact, it is a bad, very bad example.
Bacteria evolved through billions of years environmental changes, but are still bacteria.
So, fishes, might have evolved through the same length of time, should still be fishes, but not becoming amphibians.

I think we have never seen a full mutation-fixation process happened on human.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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In fact, it is a bad, very bad example.
Bacteria evolved through billions of years environmental changes, but are still bacteria.
Yep, and Archeans remain Archeans, and Eukaryotes remain Eukaryotes. No problem with that. A hallmark of evolution is that species necessarily remain within their ancestral rank.

So, fishes, might have evolved through the same length of time, should still be fishes, but not becoming amphibians.
Amphibians are really just fish that have evolved to be sufficiently different (limbs, living out of water, skin respiration, etc) to justify their own clade or class. Even today there are eleven different genera of fish ('amphibious fish') that demonstrate various stages of that kind of transition (mudskippers, rockskippers, eels, labyrinth fish, etc).

I think we have never seen a full mutation-fixation process happened on human.
Quite likely (depending what you mean by 'seen'). Consider how many generations it would take for even a strongly beneficial mutation to become fixed in even a small human population. The Kuru immunity mutation is a possible candidate, although there may be better ones.
 
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TagliatelliMonster

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There's all that talk again. Take it this way, twist it around that way, then turn it under sideways down, and add a few more words until you have convinced yourself you really have a point. The epitome of Atheist speak. :)

I'm just asking you questions to clarify your very own question.
Don't get so beat up about it and just answer the questions. That is, if you are actually interested in getting answers...
If not, that's fine, but then don't ask the question.

You mean try to explain something to someone who is working so very hard not to understand it? I don't see any reason to bother... If you want to pretend you don't know what complex means

I'm asking you what "complexity" means to YOU, because I would like to understand the question YOU are asking and from earlier experience I have also concluded that what I mean by that word is not the same as what you mean by that word.

This needs to be cleared up or we'll continue to talk past eachother.

Or don't you care that when you make a statement, that other people reading the statement understand it very differently then how you meant it?


But convince me and maybe some others that you have a legit argument to carry that out.... no.

I'm not presenting an argument. I'm just asking you to clarify the words that you are using.

What is complexity? How to measure it? By what others see as complex. See, most people don't have to measure it...they look at it and go, oh my, that's complex! lol

Ok... so, it is just a matter of opinion then?

So when you ask me "is x more complex then y?" you aren't asking me a factual question? There is no right or wrong answer? There is only my personal opinion?

So, if I find that a triangle is more complex then an icosahedron, that's perfectly legit then?

I mean you can't be serious with this line of questioning
I'm very serious.

, but alas, I think you really are.

Indeed I am.

So easy, at least until one throws common sense out the door because it doesn't work for them at the moment and contrariness does, or so they think.

I'm not throwing common sense anywhere.

You seem to need the help, so I'm inclined to make you aware...this pretending stuff your doing here, I've seen a lot of Atheists do it, but you are taking the cake. Since you continue your nonsense, I have to assume you are unable to see most see through you immediately. But do go on if you must, it's interesting if one is in the mood that is, to watch those twists and turns, as someone tries to turn the obvious into something else.

Whatever makes you sleep at night mate.

Now, as for my question....

Is the above your final answer, that it's just a matter of opinion? That there is no real measure of complexity?
 
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Kenny'sID

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I'm just asking you questions to clarify your very own question.
Don't get so beat up about it and just answer the questions. That is, if you are actually interested in getting answers...
If not, that's fine, but then don't ask the question.

Lol Get answers? Your clear intention is to not give answers.

After all that, you can't honestly think I'm going to continue to engage with this nonsense?
 
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HitchSlap

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Lol Get answers? Your clear intention is to not give answers.

After all that, you can't honestly think I'm going to continue to engage with this nonsense?
Do you often find yourself reacting this way when others disagree with you?
 
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In situ

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Can anyone present a sophisticated information filled code that wasn't written/created with intelligence?

Since nobody know what "sophisticated information" is the answer is: No.

Which is the whole point with Demski's nonsense about information theory.
 
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