A Christian who writes...

[Serving Zion]

We’re all born sinful, that’s why we need to be born again.

Well I am sorry that you have believed that. There was a time when you didn't though, and I guarantee that it didn't make sense to you without mental gymnastics. Everyone who goes under that yoke has to repent of it or resist the truth.

 

[Strider1002]

Why would we need to be born again if we were born okay the first time?

 

[Serving Zion]

Why would we need to be born again if we were born okay the first time?

St Paul writes "I was alive once, apart from the Torah, but when the commandment came, sin came to life and I died." And this happens when a child abandons their nature of obedience.

Children are obedient to grown ups because they respect grown ups. Grown-ups are like gods in a way (I don't know how well you remember seeing grown-ups that way). When the child is tempted to do what he has been told to not do, he disobeys the command, but that is not always sin though.

It is when the child disobeys the commandment of Torah, that they have directed their will to oppose what The Holy Spirit is pleading within them, to do. That is the moment they choose to believe the deception of the demonic spirit instead, and therefore they have been taken captive to walk in the darkness, afraid to come into the light for fear their deeds be exposed. They need new spiritual life then.

The world which is ignorant of these things, by its flesh nature, provokes and tempts us to fall in that way. For example, a mean spirited parent might refuse to let the child have a lovely doll in the shop, but without a spirit of grace that is taking part in the child's life with love: "wow that's a pretty doll! .. Awww I wish I could get it for you.. Awww, but if I do that then I won't have enough money to buy food for dinner tonight.. How about we just leave miss Molly here and we will pray to Jesus later and we can ask Him if He will help us to bring Molly home, OK?” .. Whereas the parent who is operating not of love, would snap in their anguish: "no! put that back! we can't afford it right now", or they might even omit the reason altogether, depending how mean they wanted to be.

That is how a child is eventually provoked to resent the parent, and unfortunately, they are provoked to resent the Torah that comes through the parent too. There is other ways it can happen, of course, such as exposure to a culture that is not of Torah, but ultimately they have discovered a preference for it.

 

[Strider1002]

That certainly is a convoluted idea.

 

[Serving Zion]

That certainly is a convoluted idea.

You should be very careful! .. it is not a thing to take lightly. If you need clarification, you are entitled to that.

 

[Strider1002]

I believe the Bible. We are born in sin and we need Jesus to cleanse us. That is what matters. I claim the blood of the Lamb of God.

 

[Serving Zion]

I believe the Bible. We are born in sin

That isn't what the bible says though. You have believed a deception that prevents you from seeing what it does in fact say and it causes you to speak of it in a way that spreads that deception.

The closest verse is a Psalms 51:5 that says that his parents were sinful when he was conceived and that his shaping was to iniquity.

I have made a robust and clear case in that link that I gave you. If you require clarification you are entitled to that, and I encourage you to do so.

and we need Jesus to cleanse us. That is what matters.

I don't know what more I can do to that end. If you are satisfied that I cannot make my case any clearer, then I shall be released of your fate.

I claim the blood of the Lamb of God.

You ought to look into what that expression means, because Matthew 27:25 and Hebrews 10:26-29 should make you tremble to say such a thing.

 

[Serving Zion]

Why would we need to be born again if we were born okay the first time?

Hmmm, now that I have gone back over this thread I can see that a more simple answer to this question might be helpful, where I went and jumped straight into the details instead.

Children are born pure, not knowing sin at all, and it is because they are taught to become the way of the world, that they become sinners before they come to know it.

For instance, a child has no concept of ownership of things. That is a rule that the world makes, to solve a particular problem. But that rule is actually not a part of nature, and it wouldn't be necessary in a world that knew no sin, so because it is not a part of what God created, it introduces other problems to the world.. and the world is full of rules now that are meant to try and maintain some civilised behaviour among people who are so unlike what God designed.

It doesn't take that long for a child to become so different from what God intended by nature, that they have become accustomed to doing sin and thinking that it is right to do so.

Sin is culturally normal (in different ways, to different degrees, depending when and where..), and then when the knowledge of Torah comes along (I mean the eternal law of God that defines what is righteous and what is wicked in God's sight), then they find that they would rather not obey Torah. In light of their new knowledge of the Torah and the fact that they don't want to comply with it, in order to escape the condemnation of their conscience, they have to choose to believe an idea of deceit instead.

When a person is not of good conscience according to the truth, they are convicted by their conscience in the presence of God (because God is holy). In that way, they are always hiding from God, lying to evade the truth etc, because to acknowledge the truth, they would have to acknowledge that they are wrong and turn away from what they are doing that is wrong.

Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the life" - which, if you just look at it as three separate statements, one of those statements shows He is saying "I am the truth" - so when a person follows a way of thinking that puts them at odds with the truth, then they have become at odds with God.

What's more, is that if they were to believe the truth about God, then they would repent because nobody who knows the full truth would want to oppose God - so a necessary part of the deception is that they will believe a delusion about God, and in that way, they get locked into a mindset that makes it hard for them to repent. It is only a demon that would encourage a person to think that way, because it is impossible for God to lie - so they have yielded their mind to a demon by doing that.

This is why when we receive the new life, we have our knowledge of God restored enough so that we can be of good conscience in His sight, and therefore not hiding from Him anymore. But, we have still been mangled by being in the ways of the world for so long that He has to lead us and teach us the Torah in a way that we can keep up with and not fall away from again. This is why St Paul writes in Romans 12:2 that we should be "transformed" by the "renewing of the mind" - that is, to learn and accept the knowledge of God and life that changes us more into the likeness of His son, and to not be conformed to the world.

.. hopefully that's a better starting point for you, and if you go back over the last few posts I wrote then they should make a bit more sense now

 

[Strider1002]

You’re talking about children not being accountable for sin because they’re not old enough to understand it, which is true. But everyone after Adam and Eve is born in sin and needs to be born again. The Bible is clear on that. But then, the Bible is a spiritual book, it takes revelation to fully get it.

What more can I say, Jesus is the Lamb of God and His sacrifice is our salvation. Why do you think people had to sacrifice animals all through the Old Testament? Why was Cain’s offering not accepted while Abel’s was? It’s the blood, it’s one life paying for another, because the wages of sin is death. Something always has to die so we can live. But the blood of God is enough to save everyone who wants to be saved.

 

[Serving Zion]

You’re talking about children not being accountable for sin because they’re not old enough to understand it, which is true.

I wasn't focussing on that, but this is true - and it's a part of the problem with trying to reconcile your doctrine to justice (this is why so many people reject Christianity at that doctrine - because it introduces a logical inconsistency). Only those who are so desperate to belong to Christianity will jump through the hoops of the mental gymnastics to get there. They are intellectually dishonest - taken captive by the deceit through their desire to belong.

I would like you to look for that the next time you see a new Christian asking along those lines. It just doesn't make sense and a lot of work goes in to try and bend their mind to make it fit. Often, the one who is doing it ends up saying "some things we just have to believe on faith and God will reveal it to us later" -- well, as soon as a person believes something that he doesn't know to be true, he has allowed himself to be deceived. This is how so many Christians reject The Spirit of Truth while they are yet babes in Christ.

I wrote about that over here: https://www.adonai-reigns.life/food-for-thought/the-truth-shall-set-you-free

But everyone after Adam and Eve is born in sin and needs to be born again. The Bible is clear on that.

You need to show me where you think the bible makes that clear.

I would agree that everyone born after Adam and Eve are born into sin, and they are made sinful that way, but that doesn't seem to be what you are saying. You seem to be saying that babies bring sin into the world.

But then, the Bible is a spiritual book, it takes revelation to fully get it.

It is true to say this, but the bible isn't the only spiritual food a person may eat (if you remember my first post to you in post #4). Neither is The Holy Spirit necessarily the spirit that a person will follow when they read the bible (eg: 2 Corinthians 4:3-4, 2 Peter 3:16, 1 John 4:1).

For this reason, I would like to show you 1 Corinthians 15:33 a third time, especially in the context of saying that the thoughts a person gets when they subject themselves to the words and movies of the world, are of demonic origin. Very little on TV, in music and magazines is representing the spirit of God. Is it any wonder that Christians are fighting with each other? They are constantly being spellbound by subjecting their minds to the world's way of thinking.

What more can I say, Jesus is the Lamb of God and His sacrifice is our salvation.

Actually, salvation is found only by getting to know Him personally (John 17:3). He has said in Matthew 7:21-23 that there will be many coming to Him in the day of His appearance, showing that they had believed in Him, but He will tell them plainly that He never knew them. This is because they refused to obey His commandments (John 14:21).

We who know Him have to lead others into the knowledge of what He expects of them (John 10:27), and then if they do choose to lay down their life and follow Him (Matthew 16:24-26), He leads them into salvation (John 8:31-32).

Why do you think people had to sacrifice animals all through the Old Testament?

It is because they kept doing sin. They didn't love animals enough to turn away from their sin and to spare the shedding of blood as the law of Moses demanded (Hebrews 10:4). It is the same with Christians today who don't understand Hebrews 10:26. They don't love Jesus enough to turn away from their sin (Hebrews 10:29).

Why was Cain’s offering not accepted while Abel’s was?

I think that God pitied Abel more than Cain, because Abel had thought that shedding innocent blood would somehow be pleasing to God (Jeremiah 7:5-10).. and despite that Abel had cared for the animal and knew that it was innocent - he still offered that sacrifice, to forego his own will to appease what he thought was The Father's will (Abraham made the same mistake). Remember, Abel's family had been taken captive by the devil, just as the many are still held captive in this present age, and this was very early on in the plan of redemption when humans had yet learned very little about the knowledge of good and evil (John 15:22).

It’s the blood, it’s one life paying for another, because the wages of sin is death.

That's the way that the devil will make you think! .. don't go thinking that I don't know what scripture says, I certainly understand Romans 6:23 and the knowledge that St Paul is expressing through it. It is just wrong to use it the way that you have used it, because it creates a cognitive dissonance with regard to God's character, when we believe that God is love.

Something always has to die so we can live.

That is because of the sin that we do.. that wouldn't happen if the world would let us be who we are meant to be!

But the blood of God is enough to save everyone who wants to be saved.

That is true, but only very few ever go that way. Many take the broad road that leads to destruction (Matthew 7:23). The reason is that they do not ultimately accept the words that can set them free (John 8:32, 1 John 4:6). By refusing to follow the one who is leading them into the knowledge of the truth, they are choosing to not be saved. This is why I have emphasised, and I emphasise again, that if you think I cannot make my case any clearer, then your fate belongs to you and not me (Ezekiel 3:20-21, Philippians 2:12).

 

[Strider1002]

We’re not saved by what we do, friend. We’re saved by believing God’s Word, all of it, and right actions will flow out of that belief. And we will turn away from (willful) sin because God gives us a new nature and fills us with His Spirit. Don’t get the cart before the horse, it usually leads to a crash.

 

[Serving Zion]

We’re not saved by what we do, friend. We’re saved by believing God’s Word, all of it, and right actions will flow out of that belief. And we will turn away from (willful) sin because God gives us a new nature and fills us with His Spirit. Don’t get the cart before the horse, it usually leads to a crash.

You are right about this, so I encourage you to believe the Word I have given you. It is not the works that save us, it is the sin that condemns us. That sin only comes from a fallen nature and it is the departing from innocence that gives that fallen nature advantage to lead us into resistance of the truth that will free us. The world makes us think in a way that makes us believe it is right to oppose the truth (some more than others, depending their individual culture). They, having believed deception, have been put to death by having chosen sin instead of Torah and they need to be born again.

 

[St_Worm2]

St Paul writes "I was alive once, apart from the Torah, but when the commandment came, sin came to life and I died." And this happens when a child abandons their nature of obedience.

Hi Serving Zion, St. Paul also writes concerning all who are outside of Christ (both the reprobate and saints 'to be' alike), that we are all, BY NATURE, children of wrath:

Ephesians 2
1 You were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.​

He also tells us that "ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" .. Romans 3:23.

"Sin" is the most universal trait among the entire human race. Our first parents were both sinners, and every one of their descendants has been/will be a sinner too. In fact, sin is the basis for our most common saying of all, "nobody's perfect", and we all know how very true that is

The question is, how did this happen to us?

The Bible makes it clear that weren't made this way by God (not from the get-go anyway) .. e.g. Genesis 1:26-27; Ecclesiastes 7:29. Since that's true, then how did EVERYONE end up becoming a sinner? A universal trait MUST have a common cause.

So the question is who (or what) did this to all of us??

My belief is this, we are all begotten in the image of our fallen progenitors, not created in the perfect image of God, like they both were on the 6th day of Creation. And, we, as their progeny, inherited their fallen nature.

--David

 

[Serving Zion]

Hi Serving Zion, St. Paul also writes concerning all who are outside of Christ (both the reprobate and saints 'to be' alike), that we are all, BY NATURE, children of wrath:

Ephesians 2
1 You were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.​

He also tells us that "ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" .. Romans 3:23.

"Sin" is the most universal trait among the entire human race. Our first parents were both sinners, and every one of their descendants has been/will be a sinner too. In fact, sin is the basis for our most common saying of all, "nobody's perfect", and we all know how very true that is

The question is, how did this happen to us?

The Bible makes it clear that weren't made this way by God (not from the get-go anyway) .. e.g. Genesis 1:26-27; Ecclesiastes 7:29. Since that's true, then how did EVERYONE end up becoming a sinner? A universal trait MUST have a common cause.

So the question is who (or what) did this to all of us??

--David

Hi David, thanks for adding this, though I think OP might not appreciate the thread having turned into this.. the other thread would be better for a continued discussion.

To answer that question, I would point to the verse of Ephesians 2:2, that says we were walking in the course of the world. A baby is not born walking the course of the world. Our first actions are to touch Mum's face, hold Dad's fingers, see that we are human like they are.. and then coming to recognise that they are the providers of everything - including instruction and knowledge. We all have to be taught by the world, and it is because the world is the children of wrath that we also become children of wrath.

To really understand what that expression means, that is the key to the puzzle. Wrath is the tool that the world uses to control civilisation: "if you break the rules, there will be consequences". Everything about the world is based upon the concept of consequences as the mechanism for governance. It's even in the ethics of business: think about why buying two 4 litre cans of paint costs more than buying one 10 litre bucket.. it is because they are using wrath to punish the one who wants to give them less money in order to coerce them to spend more.. and that isn't frowned upon (though by Torah it in fact is: Proverbs 20:23).

The opposite means of governance is love, that is to teach ethics sufficiently so that a person understands why they shouldn't do what they are doing. In that way, their conscience acts as their governor. The world has gone the way of wrath because it has fallen short of Torah so as to give the captor that tempted them a foothold to possess them - causing them to displace The Holy Spirit, who is love (Romans 6:16). It is not uncommon at all, to find (young) people who say they have given up trying to be a good person, because it never gets reciprocated.

 

[Tom 1]

I get the whole view that a Christian should write only about things that are good, nice, edifying, and whatnot.

To me, the creative arts are meant to have an effect on people. To entertain, yes, but also to maybe make them see things a bit differently. And I don’t think I’m doing any good for anyone if I present them with a whitewashed world where no one ever swears, drinks, has sex, uses violence, etc. That would be a fantasy world.

You could even argue that it robs God of His redemptive power, if the world is not presented as the depraved mess that it is. A safe, family-friendly world does not need an all-powerful God to save it. But ours does, and badly.

My goal is to write stories that tell the truth, and the whole truth. Which is a bright, optimistic truth, in reality. We are in a depraved world that is currently ruled by the devil, but we have a great God who is saving us. We were lost in a world of evil, but the Lord redeemed us.

We need the ugliness of the world to fully appreciate our redemption. I believe that. I also think stories should have “teeth” as I call it... be a little bit dangerous, maybe make people a little bit uncomfortable or afraid. An accurate reflection of life, basically. The “realness” of the evil can help you feel the “realness” of the good. Yeah, that’s a word...

Anyway, God and His people have never whitewashed the ugliness of the world. The Bible records just about every kind of ugly thing that can be done... not for the sake of shock or thrills, but to show where evil leads us and, by contrast, what good can do for us. One of the main reasons God sent prophets was to cry out against the evil in the world. John the Baptist called certain religious people snakes! And Jesus criticized many of them too.

The point of this spiel is, I can write stories that glorify God. And I can do it pretty well. But I need to utilize the darkness as well as the light. It is a tool, of course. I hate bad language; I get upset when I even hear a “bleep”... but when my characters swear, I can see where it makes sense to them. I won’t get physical with a woman before marriage... but I can see where my characters might want to give in to that. And so on...

Writing fiction has a lot to do with putting yourself in another person’s head, a fictional person. And I’m good at that. Some of them may be saved, some not. Swearing, drinking, drugs, sex, violence... it’s not a reflection on me. I’m reflecting what I see in the world. It’s not good... but God is.

The bible doesn’t whitewash the sins of heroes of the faith, David being the most obvious example. Off the top of my head I can’t think of any major biblical character, apart from Jesus of course, who’s biography in the bible doesn’t involve their failings as well as victories.

 

[St_Worm2]

The bible doesn’t whitewash the sins of heroes of the faith, David being the most obvious example. Off the top of my head I can’t think of any major biblical character, apart from Jesus of course, who’s biography in the bible doesn’t involve their failings as well as victories.

Check out Daniel.

 

[St_Worm2]

Hi David, thanks for adding this, though I think OP might not appreciate the thread having turned into this.. the other thread would be better for a continued discussion.

To answer that question, I would point to the verse of Ephesians 2:2, that says we were walking in the course of the world. A baby is not born walking the course of the world. Our first actions are to touch Mum's face, hold Dad's fingers, see that we are human like they are.. and then coming to recognise that they are the providers of everything - including instruction and knowledge. We all have to be taught by the world, and it is because the world is the children of wrath that we also become children of wrath.

To really understand what that expression means, that is the key to the puzzle. Wrath is the tool that the world uses to control civilisation: "if you break the rules, there will be consequences". Everything about the world is based upon the concept of consequences as the mechanism for governance. It's even in the ethics of business: think about why buying two 4 litre cans of paint costs more than buying one 10 litre bucket.. it is because they are using wrath to punish the one who wants to give them less money in order to coerce them to spend more.. and that isn't frowned upon (though by Torah it in fact is: Proverbs 20:23).

The opposite means of governance is love, that is to teach ethics sufficiently so that a person understands why they shouldn't do what they are doing. In that way, their conscience acts as their governor. The world has gone the way of wrath because it has fallen short of Torah so as to give the captor that tempted them a foothold to possess them - causing them to displace The Holy Spirit, who is love (Romans 6:16). It is not uncommon at all, to find (young) people who say they have given up trying to be a good person, because it never gets reciprocated.

Hi again Serving Zion, I responded to posts on this page (I came to this thread via a link that you left in another thread) w/o checking out the OP first, and you are correct, this thread has be hijacked as this subject is hardly following the OP. I'll comment quickly on a couple of things you said (because it seems like half of this thread has taken a turn down this rabbit trail), but if you'd like to start a new thread about OS on the Hamartiology board (under GT), I'm game (and maybe Strider would consider joining us there too?).

Now quickly, how did the "world system" that you speak of turn every single man, woman and child into sinners, if we all began as perfect/upright people who were all made in God's perfect image? Many (or surely, at least a few) should have squeaked by and remained upright, but ALL of us are fallen. Why?

Here's a thought, if you ran the Mattel plant and you just finished a run of 500,000 Barbie Dolls that were ALL missing their right-hand index finger, where would you look to try to find the problem?

As for wrath, there are two principle things that Jesus saved us from, 1. "sin" in the here and now and 2. God's "wrath" in the life to come .. Romans 5:9.

Obtaining a get out of Hell for free card is simply a bonus

Yours and His,
David

 

[Serving Zion]

This might be why writers have pen names; some people cannot separate fiction from reality.

Thing is, that reading fiction causes the mind to think in ways that it didn't before, and then that mind is carried into reality. This is why I have called it spell-casting in post #4. The power of life and death is in the tongue.

You can write murder mysteries and not be a murderer.

As I just showed, this is not necessarily true. If a writer is stimulating hate in the hearts of their readers, then they are causing people to be murderers in heart. If the writer is causing a person to have sinful fantasies that causes them to deny the conviction of The Holy Spirit, they are directly putting that person to death by tempting and luring them into sin (James 1:14-15).

You can write about alcoholics and detest alcohol.

This is true. That's the defining factor. The bible writes of murder without encouraging a person to fantasise about it.

It’s storytelling. It’s about introducing darkness so that the light can come and conquer it.

When you "introduce darkness so that light can come and conquer it", you are doing the work of Satan "the opposer".

If you are in the mindset that you have to introduce darkness to the world to keep God busy, then you can only break free by believing the truth and taking sides with God. God is not mocked, a man will reap what he sows.

Therefore, if you (and others) continue to believe the lies of the devil that causes you to twist scripture, and claim that it says what it doesn't say at all, despite that I have made a clear case otherwise, you take responsibility for your fate by putting the power of your will over the Word of God.

 

[Strider1002]

Was Jesus doing Satan’s work when He told parables where people are beaten, robbed, murdered? Is the Bible doing Satan’s work when it tells of people getting drunk, committing adultery, rape, murdering and butchering people, denying God and cursing?

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:12‬ ‭KJV‬

 

[Serving Zion]

Was Jesus doing Satan’s work when He told parables where people are beaten, robbed, murdered? Is the Bible doing Satan’s work when it tells of people getting drunk, committing adultery, rape, murdering and butchering people, denying God and cursing?

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:12‬ ‭KJV‬

You should look at what their intentions are by doing so. I don't think Jesus, being the light of all mankind, would agree that He had to bring darkness into the world. In fact, He even said the opposite was true: John 12:35. I wonder, therefore, that you have a heart that wants to bring darkness into the world, how you might expect anyone to believe you do not fit the description of those who were trying to kill Him who is the light, as He named them in John 8:44?

The further you press against the truth, the deeper you go into deceit. It is best to recognise that I am not against your salvation, but that spirit that you are following instead, is dragging you away.