geocajun said:
BrotherIgnatius, I really think you are preaching the truth, however I think what you are failing to account for is that church teaching is not as clear to everyone as it is to you. Some folks struggle and some folks never learn it in its fullness.
A lack of understanding is one thing. Even a stubbornness to do what one ought to undersanding (a form of pride) is one thing. But flippant disregard and dismissal of Church teaching is something else altogether..
geocajun said:
In the end, if Wols never beleives dropping the bomb was sinful, it will not effect his salvation
This is true, but the prideful arrogance to flippantly dismiss the teaching of the Church is a little more serious and dangerous.
geocajun said:
Your statement that he "spit on Church teaching" is unfair
Well, I would disgree. It is a statement of fact. Anytime anyone flippantly dismissing Church teaching they are, by that action, spitting on God and the teaching of His Church. It would be unfair to characterize it in any lessor way.
geocajun said:
- I don't think there was any spitting on Church teaching going on... like you, I happen to be a Catechist, and I do not call my uninformed students heretics, or say they are spitting on Church teaching by their ignorance
Well, as mentioned we are not talking about being merely 'uninformed' or 'ignorant'. The fella was informed and instructed on Church teaching on this, but he flippantly dismissed it.
geocajun said:
... thats no way to teach someone.
Not true. One of the ways that Jesus taught was by calling people names (see Matt 23), St. James called the people he was arguing with "ignoramouses", the saints have often used tough words. Here are a few examples of Doctors and Saints of the Church who would get an "official" warning from this BBS:
The pacific St. Thomas of Aquinas forgets the calm of his cold syllogisms when he hurls his violent apostrophe against William of St. Amour and his disciples: "Enemies of God," he cries out, "ministers of the Devil, members of AntiChrist, ignorami, perverts, reprobates!"
The seraphic St. Bonaventure, so full of sweetness, overwhelms his adversary Gerard with such epithets as "impudent, calumniator, spirit of malice, impious, shameless, ignorant, impostor, malefactor, perfidious, ingrate!"
And on those ocassions where one is confronting a heretic (not saying anyone here is a heretic, just including this as further evidence that we are not always to be "nice"; St. De Sales was asked by a Catholic, who desired to know if it were permissible to speak evil of a heretic who propagated false doctrines, he replied: "Yes, you can, on the condition that you adhere to the exact truth, to what you know of his bad conduct, presenting that which is doubtful as doubtful according to the degree of doubt which you may have in this regard."
In his Introduction to a Devout Life, that precious and popular work, he expresses himself again: "If the declared enemies of God and of the Church ought to be blamed and censured with all possible vigor, charity obliges us to cry wolf' when the wolf slips into the midst of the flock, and in every way and place we may meet him."
By the way, the word "nice" comes from the Latin meaning "ignorant" and later to come to mean "false civilty". In modern terminology, this is called Plausibility -- the desire to be civil at the expense of truth.
I admit, I am a not nice, non falsely civil, and non-plausible child of the Church. The only military worth joining is the Army of God and as such I fly the banner of the Vatican and of St. Michael the Archangel and NOT the banners of military units from 30 years ago.
And for those who are thinking that my approach to things is terrible and probably leads people away from the Church, not so. Through the more tough love, veins in the teeth approach thousands of people have come back to the Church, converted to the Church, been healed, been reconciled, become disciples, have had their lives changed for the better. This is not speculation but based upon statements of people who have told us what our ministry has done for them. We even had a small denominational sect of Orthodox convert en amasse to the Catholic Church, and a person healed totally from homosexuality, as just two of countless examples of the result of this non-nonsense approach.
The Church has many charisms. There is indeed a gentler charism. It is a wonderful charism. There is also a tough as nails charism and it too is a wonderful charism.
Anyway, the first measure of a soldier is obedience to one's superior officers and NOT the assertion of personal opinion in opposition to those superiors. In battle such oppositional behavior can get the whole platoon killed. A good soldier is an obedient one. Heck, if we were in the bush right now fighting against an enemy and I was the platoon leader, I would have shot such an oppositional person if that was the only way to save the platoon and the mission. AND that would have been morally wrong but I would have done it anyway.
I am not some pacifist pansy. I am thoroughly, and personally, aware of the issues involved. In fact, had I been President Truman I probably would have ordered the dropping of the bomb too.
But, you see, I recognize that my own inclinations and even preferences may be counter to the Church teaching. I try to have the courage to submit all inclinations and perferences to the guildance of the Church and the Holy Spirit. I am not always sucessful -- like posting in this thread, but I try.
Anyway, I agree with you that church teaching is not as clear to everyone as it is to others and that some folks struggle and some folks never learn it in its fullness. Our job then is to instruct and if necessary to admonish. We must remember that the Church says, for example when speaking on issues of dogma, that one is a heretic not only when the deny the dogma, but even when they are in "obstinate doubt" of the dogma.
To extrapolate out that principle into other matters besides dogma, the truth of the principle remains -- obstinate doubt is equally culpable as outright denial.
But, to paraphrase St. Francis de Sales, when someone flippantly dismisses the teaching of the church, and obstinately continues such a position, it is appropriate to cut em off at the knees.
I would invite you to read our Catholic Q&A (
www.saint-mike.org/qa/) to see the full nature of the catechesis that we do with 1000's of people in all possible walks of life and all possible levels of understanding.
