A challenge to read scripture in the light of what I said here

[A Devil's Advocate]

Many years back when I first became a Christian, it didn't take very long before I began seeing contradictions or discrepancies in what I was being taught versus what I was reading in scripture. Granted, I was a new believer, but simple common sense shouldn't be thrown out the window for the sake of making scripture fit what you believe. Some 25yrs later, I have come to find myself seeing three fundamental differences between what I read in scripture versus what is often taught throughout mainstream Christianity.

The first main difference I see is the fact that when Jesus died for the sins of the world, all sins and blasphemies of men were forgiven. Said a different way, everyone who has come into the world from the cross forward, has come into the world already forgiven of their sins. However, that being said, I do not believe in universal salvation. Universal justification yes, but not universal salvation. There is a difference! Universal justification is rather clear in Romans 5:6-10. However, it isn't saying that everyone is saved (or, will be saved). Which brings me to the second fundamental difference I read in scripture.

Salvation is not found in getting our sins forgiven. It is in the receiving of new life (by believing) found in the resurrection. Throughout biblical history we see that in order for our sins to be forgiven, something has to die. Yet, throughout this same history, never do we see eternal life coming from, or out of death. Life can only come from life. In fact, not even Jesus' death could bring eternal life. Paul spoke of this in 1 Cor.15, specifically 15:17. where he tells us that if Christ has not been raised, our faith is futile, and we are still in our sins. Paul said this knowing full well that Jesus died for the forgiveness of sins. Yet, we are still unsaved if he has not been raised from the dead.
Romans 5:10, "For if while we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!"
It's interesting how Paul makes no reference at all to Christ dying on the cross for the forgiveness of sins, when he tells us in Romans 10:9 that if we declare with our mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in out heart that God raised Jesus from the dead, we will be saved. But, instead points us to his resurrection.
To further bring this point home, if we look at Matt 12:31, Jesus tells us that every sin and blasphemy of men will be forgiven, but the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. What is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit? In it's simplest form, it's simply unbelief. In John 16:8 Jesus tells us that the Spirit will convict the world of sin, righteousness and judgment: with regards to sin, because you "do not believe in me..." It doesn't say, with regards to sin "because you are sinners in need of forgiveness!" (By the time the spirit was poured out, all sin had already been forgiven)
So, if the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is simply unbelief, and by default we all come into this world as unbelievers... then, by default, we are all guilty of blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Now, if we read what Jesus said about all sins and blasphemies of men being forgiven, but the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit will not being forgiven, and we read that under the umbrella that we must ask for our sins to be forgiven in order to be saved, then Jesus has made it perfectly clear that none of us are saved. Obviously, that's not what he is saying. That verse read correctly would sound something more like this.... "When I pour out my blood for the forgiveness of sins, all sins and blasphemies of all men will be forgiven, but your unbelief will not be forgiven (in this age or the age to come). This, you must repent of! You must turn from your sinful unbelieving life to a life of belief in me," Of course I may have added a bit here, but you get the point. When Jesus died on the cross, all of us where forgiven and cleansed of all unrighteousness. Although this did not save us, it set us free from God's punishment of sin. It freed us to come to God, wherever we are at in our life, free of condemnation and guilt. This is the good news of the gospel!
Which now brings me to the third fundamental difference is see in scripture, or more accurately, don't see in scripture.

Under the new covenant I see scripture telling us to repent, but as I touched on briefly above, we are to repent of our old sinful and unbelieving life and turn to a life of belief in Jesus. I also see, again under the new covenant, that we are to confess. Confess to one another, confess that yes, we are with sin and therefore in need of Jesus (this is in reference to a group in the early stages of what would be known as Gnosticism). I also see confession with regards to our belief in Jesus. What I don't see under the new covenant, is scripture telling us that we need to ask God for the forgiveness of our sins. I recognize the versus where people choose to read that into the scriptures, but nowhere do I read it directly. If I am wrong, and we are to ask God to forgive us our sins in order to receive salvation, then why is it so cryptic? Why isn't it plain as day like when Paul tells us to believe in our heart and to confess with our mouth? It seems to me if asking for forgiveness is how we get saved, it would be of utmost importance, would it not?

Anyways, these are the three areas where I see things differently from what I hear in mainstream Christianity. I'm not telling you this to say you're wrong or that I'm right. I'm simply sharing with you where my head is at. Do what you may with it. Now, if you feel it necessary to tell me how wrong and mislead I am, please use scripture (in context) from the new covenant, since this is what we are now under.

 

[Neogaia777]

Many years back when I first became a Christian, it didn't take very long before I began seeing contradictions or discrepancies in what I was being taught versus what I was reading in scripture. Granted, I was a new believer, but simple common sense shouldn't be thrown out the window for the sake of making scripture fit what you believe. Some 25yrs later, I have come to find myself seeing three fundamental differences between what I read in scripture versus what is often taught throughout mainstream Christianity.

The first main difference I see is the fact that when Jesus died for the sins of the world, all sins and blasphemies of men were forgiven. Said a different way, everyone who has come into the world from the cross forward, has come into the world already forgiven of their sins. However, that being said, I do not believe in universal salvation. Universal justification yes, but not universal salvation. There is a difference! Universal justification is rather clear in Romans 5:6-10. However, it isn't saying that everyone is saved (or, will be saved). Which brings me to the second fundamental difference I read in scripture.

Salvation is not found in getting our sins forgiven. It is in the receiving of new life (by believing) found in the resurrection. Throughout biblical history we see that in order for our sins to be forgiven, something has to die. Yet, throughout this same history, never do we see eternal life coming from, or out of death. Life can only come from life. In fact, not even Jesus' death could bring eternal life. Paul spoke of this in 1 Cor.15, specifically 15:17. where he tells us that if Christ has not been raised, our faith is futile, and we are still in our sins. Paul said this knowing full well that Jesus died for the forgiveness of sins. Yet, we are still unsaved if he has not been raised from the dead.
Romans 5:10, "For if while we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!"
It's interesting how Paul makes no reference at all to Christ dying on the cross for the forgiveness of sins, when he tells us in Romans 10:9 that if we declare with our mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in out heart that God raised Jesus from the dead, we will be saved. But, instead points us to his resurrection.
To further bring this point home, if we look at Matt 12:31, Jesus tells us that every sin and blasphemy of men will be forgiven, but the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. What is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit? In it's simplest form, it's simply unbelief. In John 16:8 Jesus tells us that the Spirit will convict the world of sin, righteousness and judgment: with regards to sin, because you "do not believe in me..." It doesn't say, with regards to sin "because you are sinners in need of forgiveness!" (By the time the spirit was poured out, all sin had already been forgiven)
So, if the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is simply unbelief, and by default we all come into this world as unbelievers... then, by default, we are all guilty of blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Now, if we read what Jesus said about all sins and blasphemies of men being forgiven, but the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit will not being forgiven, and we read that under the umbrella that we must ask for our sins to be forgiven in order to be saved, then Jesus has made it perfectly clear that none of us are saved. Obviously, that's not what he is saying. That verse read correctly would sound something more like this.... "When I pour out my blood for the forgiveness of sins, all sins and blasphemies of all men will be forgiven, but your unbelief will not be forgiven (in this age or the age to come). This, you must repent of! You must turn from your sinful unbelieving life to a life of belief in me," Of course I may have added a bit here, but you get the point. When Jesus died on the cross, all of us where forgiven and cleansed of all unrighteousness. Although this did not save us, it set us free from God's punishment of sin. It freed us to come to God, wherever we are at in our life, free of condemnation and guilt. This is the good news of the gospel!
Which now brings me to the third fundamental difference is see in scripture, or more accurately, don't see in scripture.

Under the new covenant I see scripture telling us to repent, but as I touched on briefly above, we are to repent of our old sinful and unbelieving life and turn to a life of belief in Jesus. I also see, again under the new covenant, that we are to confess. Confess to one another, confess that yes, we are with sin and therefore in need of Jesus (this is in reference to a group in the early stages of what would be known as Gnosticism). I also see confession with regards to our belief in Jesus. What I don't see under the new covenant, is scripture telling us that we need to ask God for the forgiveness of our sins. I recognize the versus where people choose to read that into the scriptures, but nowhere do I read it directly. If I am wrong, and we are to ask God to forgive us our sins in order to receive salvation, then why is it so cryptic? Why isn't it plain as day like when Paul tells us to believe in our heart and to confess with our mouth? It seems to me if asking for forgiveness is how we get saved, it would be of utmost importance, would it not?

Anyways, these are the three areas where I see things differently from what I hear in mainstream Christianity. I'm not telling you this to say you're wrong or that I'm right. I'm simply sharing with you where my head is at. Do what you may with it. Now, if you feel it necessary to tell me how wrong and mislead I am, please use scripture (in context) from the new covenant, since this is what we are now under.

Jesus death put an end to people being directly punished by God for their individual sins. No more "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth" in other words, etc. Because Jesus did away with all of that when he died on the cross, and also of people going to hell, or not going to heaven eternally for their own individual sins, if they believe in Jesus fully, and accept him in their heart as the one and only way they can be saved and get into Heaven, etc. But people still don't get into Heaven in the afterlife because of "other reasons" still, etc, and even Jesus sacrifice could not do away with that, etc. But Jesus did pay for all sin, or the entire world's sins, so that there is no more recompense just because of that only now, etc. You think this would be a good thing, but it just only means that the world since that time, would just only get worse, and suffering would only increase, or would only get worse until He comes back, etc.

Jesus death also includes his resurrection, and for us, is about our dying to an old way of life in exchange for something new, and hopefully, something that is much, much less sinful, etc. So your comment about no new life coming from an old death makes no sense to me, because that happens all the time, and is a part of life, etc.

The blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is not something very many have to worry about until they can fully distinguish God the Holy Spirit specifically from the other Two members of the Trinity, and many are just not there yet, so I wouldn't worry too much about that one yet until you can do that yet, etc. Jesus said all blasphemies against him specifically would all be fully forgiven fully, so the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is not that specifically, etc. Unbelief though, is not something you want to continue in your whole life, as it could keep you out of heaven, etc.

Confessing your sins to God on a regular basis and asking forgiveness for them is important, and should be a regular part of any true Christians life from time to time on a regular basis, etc, and confessing your sins to members of your/the church can sometimes be important, as long as you make sure you're not casting your pearls before swine first, etc, because that latter rule should always supercede the former first, etc.

God Bless.

 

[eleos1954]

Many years back when I first became a Christian, it didn't take very long before I began seeing contradictions or discrepancies in what I was being taught versus what I was reading in scripture. Granted, I was a new believer, but simple common sense shouldn't be thrown out the window for the sake of making scripture fit what you believe. Some 25yrs later, I have come to find myself seeing three fundamental differences between what I read in scripture versus what is often taught throughout mainstream Christianity.

The first main difference I see is the fact that when Jesus died for the sins of the world, all sins and blasphemies of men were forgiven. Said a different way, everyone who has come into the world from the cross forward, has come into the world already forgiven of their sins. However, that being said, I do not believe in universal salvation. Universal justification yes, but not universal salvation. There is a difference! Universal justification is rather clear in Romans 5:6-10. However, it isn't saying that everyone is saved (or, will be saved). Which brings me to the second fundamental difference I read in scripture.

Salvation is not found in getting our sins forgiven. It is in the receiving of new life (by believing) found in the resurrection. Throughout biblical history we see that in order for our sins to be forgiven, something has to die. Yet, throughout this same history, never do we see eternal life coming from, or out of death. Life can only come from life. In fact, not even Jesus' death could bring eternal life. Paul spoke of this in 1 Cor.15, specifically 15:17. where he tells us that if Christ has not been raised, our faith is futile, and we are still in our sins. Paul said this knowing full well that Jesus died for the forgiveness of sins. Yet, we are still unsaved if he has not been raised from the dead.
Romans 5:10, "For if while we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!"
It's interesting how Paul makes no reference at all to Christ dying on the cross for the forgiveness of sins, when he tells us in Romans 10:9 that if we declare with our mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in out heart that God raised Jesus from the dead, we will be saved. But, instead points us to his resurrection.
To further bring this point home, if we look at Matt 12:31, Jesus tells us that every sin and blasphemy of men will be forgiven, but the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. What is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit? In it's simplest form, it's simply unbelief. In John 16:8 Jesus tells us that the Spirit will convict the world of sin, righteousness and judgment: with regards to sin, because you "do not believe in me..." It doesn't say, with regards to sin "because you are sinners in need of forgiveness!" (By the time the spirit was poured out, all sin had already been forgiven)
So, if the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is simply unbelief, and by default we all come into this world as unbelievers... then, by default, we are all guilty of blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Now, if we read what Jesus said about all sins and blasphemies of men being forgiven, but the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit will not being forgiven, and we read that under the umbrella that we must ask for our sins to be forgiven in order to be saved, then Jesus has made it perfectly clear that none of us are saved. Obviously, that's not what he is saying. That verse read correctly would sound something more like this.... "When I pour out my blood for the forgiveness of sins, all sins and blasphemies of all men will be forgiven, but your unbelief will not be forgiven (in this age or the age to come). This, you must repent of! You must turn from your sinful unbelieving life to a life of belief in me," Of course I may have added a bit here, but you get the point. When Jesus died on the cross, all of us where forgiven and cleansed of all unrighteousness. Although this did not save us, it set us free from God's punishment of sin. It freed us to come to God, wherever we are at in our life, free of condemnation and guilt. This is the good news of the gospel!
Which now brings me to the third fundamental difference is see in scripture, or more accurately, don't see in scripture.

Under the new covenant I see scripture telling us to repent, but as I touched on briefly above, we are to repent of our old sinful and unbelieving life and turn to a life of belief in Jesus. I also see, again under the new covenant, that we are to confess. Confess to one another, confess that yes, we are with sin and therefore in need of Jesus (this is in reference to a group in the early stages of what would be known as Gnosticism). I also see confession with regards to our belief in Jesus. What I don't see under the new covenant, is scripture telling us that we need to ask God for the forgiveness of our sins. I recognize the versus where people choose to read that into the scriptures, but nowhere do I read it directly. If I am wrong, and we are to ask God to forgive us our sins in order to receive salvation, then why is it so cryptic? Why isn't it plain as day like when Paul tells us to believe in our heart and to confess with our mouth? It seems to me if asking for forgiveness is how we get saved, it would be of utmost importance, would it not?

Anyways, these are the three areas where I see things differently from what I hear in mainstream Christianity. I'm not telling you this to say you're wrong or that I'm right. I'm simply sharing with you where my head is at. Do what you may with it. Now, if you feel it necessary to tell me how wrong and mislead I am, please use scripture (in context) from the new covenant, since this is what we are now under.

• 1 John 1:8-9 “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If (conditional) we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”

Salvation is a gift

Salvation is a free gift that we receive when we believe the gospel. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

God don't force himself on anyone ... We need His help to help us overcome sin .... we do not have the power by ourselves to do that.

Those who repent (turn away from sin) and believe (Gods Word) become children of God (John 1:12-13), and because of that “God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” (Gal. 4:6).

The Holy Spirit has been working in the heart of mankind since creation. The Holy Sprit works in all hearts. No one has an excuse.

Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is continued rejection of the Holy Spirits prompting in the heart/mind (conviction).

The story of Pharaoh and the 10 plagues is a good example. At any time Pharaoh could have repented but he did not ... so God gave him over to his sin and therefor the consequences of it.

The Holy Spirit calls all ... but not all will answer ... at some point in time (only God knows) He will give them over to their sin completely.

The plan of salvation was put in place before the foundation of the world .... before creation. That plan would be salvation though Christ alone.

God is looking for people that come to Him willingly ... if one does so in sincerity ... the Holy Spirit will help change their thinking ... when our thinking is changed to be more align with that of Christ so will our doing be more aligned with that of Christ (sanctification) a earthly lifetime process.

It's a heart/mind issue ... and only God knows the heart/mind.

Salvation is TOTALY up to Jesus for all. In reality we do not know who will or will not be saved ... until His return. We should not presuppose of the salvation of others. We know His judgements will be totally perfect for all ... for all time.

Ours is to get the gospel out that salvation is available to all and encourage them to study His Word and form an ongoing personal relationship with Him... how the Lord works in their hearts (through the Holy Spirit) is up to Him.

“Behold, I stand at the door and knock,” from Revelation 3:20.

He knocks on everyones door ... but people need to (willingly) open that door ... He don't kick the door in.

When we ask for forgiveness it is because it has been made known to us of our utter depravity. We understand that we are sick and need to be healed .... Jesus is the cure for mankind's' sickness. Some will refuse the treatment.

Mark 2
17On hearing this, Jesus told them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

 

[A Devil's Advocate]

1 John 1:8-9 “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If (conditional) we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”

Hello to you eleos.

Can I assume you have been a Christian for at least 6yrs or more (going by your membership)? When you came to Christ, was it possibly because you recognized you are a sinner and in need of salvation, or at least along this line? During your time as a believer have you become more aware of your sinfulness, or have you come to believe yourself to be without sin?

In first John, John was addressing a belief that had infiltrated the church. This belief would soon come to be know as Gnosticism. Part of their belief is they believed themselves to be without sin. In verse 8 of 1 John, John points out that if we claim to be without sin, the truth is not in us. What is this truth? It is the Gospel. The saving work of Jesus, the forgiveness of sins. It is the word of God who became flesh. The truth John is referring to is Jesus. Believers, no different than you, who came to Christ for the forgiveness of sins, are not suddenly going to turn around and believe themselves to be without sin.

In verse 9, John then goes on to say if they confess their sins, that is to recognize and come into agreement with what the Holy Spirit (and John) is convicting them of, and to acknowledge this, then God being faithful and just, will have forgiven them and cleansed them from all unrighteousness (interesting how John is only telling them to recognize they are sinners and God will forgive them, even though he says noting about asking to be forgiven). But, notice what John doesn't say? He doesn't say they will be saved. The reason John doesn't tell them they will be saved, is because in order to lead someone to salvation, you must first lead them to Jesus. But, before you can lead someone to Jesus, you must first convince them of their need for Jesus. This is where John was at with this group. He was first trying to convince them of their need for Jesus.

If confessing sins is an ongoing act of living out our salvation according to this verse, then one must logically conclude that if we don't, we end up out of fellowship with God. A common teaching I heard as a new believer. This is nonsense both by scripture and practically. We should be able to correctly assume that if our sins can take us out of fellowship with God, then sinning must be the exact opposite to being in fellowship. Two exact opposites cannot be true at the same time. For example, you cannot be alive and dead at the same time. You are one or the other, either alive, or you're dead. The reason our sins can't take us out of fellowship is because that is impossible. For my sin to take me out of fellowship I must sin at the same time I am in fellowship for sin to take me out of fellowship. That is not possible. We are either in fellowship, that is saved. Or, we are out of fellowship, that is unsaved.

 

[Neogaia777]

@A Devil's Advocate

God's judgement before getting into Heaven is going to be specific and unique to each individual, and will not be 100% equal, but will be 100% fair and just, etc.

So no one can tell you what sin(s) are going to keep you out of Heaven, or what lack of sin(s) are going to get you in, etc, but we do know that "to whom much more is given, much more will be required", etc, so that does give us some kind of a clue there, but just not specifically, etc, and also where it also says also "teachers will receive a heavier judgement", etc, but again, still nothing specific, etc.

I don't think we will know the full specifics about all of God's individual judgements until we are actually there, etc, but these warnings should keep us all on our toes in the meantime, etc, since none of us knows, etc, but only God only knows how He made each individual one, etc, and that is all going to be all carefully weighed in, in each individual and specific judgement at the very end, etc.

God Bless.

 

[bling]

Many years back when I first became a Christian, it didn't take very long before I began seeing contradictions or discrepancies in what I was being taught versus what I was reading in scripture. Granted, I was a new believer, but simple common sense shouldn't be thrown out the window for the sake of making scripture fit what you believe. Some 25yrs later, I have come to find myself seeing three fundamental differences between what I read in scripture versus what is often taught throughout mainstream Christianity.

The first main difference I see is the fact that when Jesus died for the sins of the world, all sins and blasphemies of men were forgiven. Said a different way, everyone who has come into the world from the cross forward, has come into the world already forgiven of their sins. However, that being said, I do not believe in universal salvation. Universal justification yes, but not universal salvation. There is a difference! Universal justification is rather clear in Romans 5:6-10. However, it isn't saying that everyone is saved (or, will be saved). Which brings me to the second fundamental difference I read in scripture.

Salvation is not found in getting our sins forgiven. It is in the receiving of new life (by believing) found in the resurrection. Throughout biblical history we see that in order for our sins to be forgiven, something has to die. Yet, throughout this same history, never do we see eternal life coming from, or out of death. Life can only come from life. In fact, not even Jesus' death could bring eternal life. Paul spoke of this in 1 Cor.15, specifically 15:17. where he tells us that if Christ has not been raised, our faith is futile, and we are still in our sins. Paul said this knowing full well that Jesus died for the forgiveness of sins. Yet, we are still unsaved if he has not been raised from the dead.
Romans 5:10, "For if while we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!"
It's interesting how Paul makes no reference at all to Christ dying on the cross for the forgiveness of sins, when he tells us in Romans 10:9 that if we declare with our mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in out heart that God raised Jesus from the dead, we will be saved. But, instead points us to his resurrection.
To further bring this point home, if we look at Matt 12:31, Jesus tells us that every sin and blasphemy of men will be forgiven, but the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. What is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit? In it's simplest form, it's simply unbelief. In John 16:8 Jesus tells us that the Spirit will convict the world of sin, righteousness and judgment: with regards to sin, because you "do not believe in me..." It doesn't say, with regards to sin "because you are sinners in need of forgiveness!" (By the time the spirit was poured out, all sin had already been forgiven)
So, if the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is simply unbelief, and by default we all come into this world as unbelievers... then, by default, we are all guilty of blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Now, if we read what Jesus said about all sins and blasphemies of men being forgiven, but the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit will not being forgiven, and we read that under the umbrella that we must ask for our sins to be forgiven in order to be saved, then Jesus has made it perfectly clear that none of us are saved. Obviously, that's not what he is saying. That verse read correctly would sound something more like this.... "When I pour out my blood for the forgiveness of sins, all sins and blasphemies of all men will be forgiven, but your unbelief will not be forgiven (in this age or the age to come). This, you must repent of! You must turn from your sinful unbelieving life to a life of belief in me," Of course I may have added a bit here, but you get the point. When Jesus died on the cross, all of us where forgiven and cleansed of all unrighteousness. Although this did not save us, it set us free from God's punishment of sin. It freed us to come to God, wherever we are at in our life, free of condemnation and guilt. This is the good news of the gospel!
Which now brings me to the third fundamental difference is see in scripture, or more accurately, don't see in scripture.

Under the new covenant I see scripture telling us to repent, but as I touched on briefly above, we are to repent of our old sinful and unbelieving life and turn to a life of belief in Jesus. I also see, again under the new covenant, that we are to confess. Confess to one another, confess that yes, we are with sin and therefore in need of Jesus (this is in reference to a group in the early stages of what would be known as Gnosticism). I also see confession with regards to our belief in Jesus. What I don't see under the new covenant, is scripture telling us that we need to ask God for the forgiveness of our sins. I recognize the versus where people choose to read that into the scriptures, but nowhere do I read it directly. If I am wrong, and we are to ask God to forgive us our sins in order to receive salvation, then why is it so cryptic? Why isn't it plain as day like when Paul tells us to believe in our heart and to confess with our mouth? It seems to me if asking for forgiveness is how we get saved, it would be of utmost importance, would it not?

Anyways, these are the three areas where I see things differently from what I hear in mainstream Christianity. I'm not telling you this to say you're wrong or that I'm right. I'm simply sharing with you where my head is at. Do what you may with it. Now, if you feel it necessary to tell me how wrong and mislead I am, please use scripture (in context) from the new covenant, since this is what we are now under.

Welcome to the Forum and thank you for your very thoughtful question.

I fully agree with you that much of the teaching today is not following scripture.

You bring up: “Atonement”, which is a huge topic with many only popular “Theories” trying to explain it.

I could write a book on the topic since I like you, do not agree with man’s explanations.

Atonement is one of those religious concepts which is best understood through experiencing it, then trying to explain it. Unfortunately, the new Christian is filled with ideas about atonement prior to experiencing it, so they are brain washed into trying to feel something that does not happen and man’s words have quenched what should happen.

We can discuss this topic, but it is huge, so let me give you a few things as an introduction to think about:

Jesus is the atonement sacrifice, but Jesus is not the atonement itself, since there are more elements to the atonement process than just the sacrifice itself.

We really need to go through every verse relating to atonement and sacrifice to gleam a true understanding, but you asked for other word used to describe Jesus’ sacrifice, you can start with Lev. 4 and 5 with chapter 5 being meatier.

To begin with think about this:

When we talk to nonbelievers, we are not trying to get them to believe some book, church, doctrine or theology, but we want them to accept through faith: “Jesus Christ and Him crucified”. If that nonbeliever trust (has faith) in Christ and His crucifixion; a child is released and allowed to enter the kingdom where God the Father is, but if the nonbeliever refuses to except, for lack of faith in Jesus Christ and Him crucified, a child is held back by the nonbeliever and not set free to go to the Father.

Does this not sound very much like a kidnapping scenario with a ransom being offered?

“Jesus Christ and Him crucified” is described in scripture by Jesus, John, Paul, Peter and the Hebrew author as being the ransom payment?

Would the sinner holding a child of God out of the Kingdom of God describe a criminal unworthy kidnapper?

“Jesus Christ and Him crucified” is a huge sacrificial payment, so is it like you find with children being ransomed?

God is not a criminal undeserving kidnapper holding His own children and satan is not changeable nor has he the power to hold God’s child back from God, so the unbeliever is the only excellent fit for the kidnapper in the atonement process. If you have no kidnapper then it is not a kidnapping scenario, yet it fits beautifully a kidnapping scenario and really gets the meaning across.

The ransom has been paid for everyone, but not all the sinful kidnappers have accepted the payment.

 

[A Devil's Advocate]

So no one can tell you what sin(s) are going to keep you out of Heaven, or what lack of sin(s) are going to get you in, etc

I've had this idea floating around in my head for awhile now.... what if, and this is a big "what if"..... what if someone was to come and pay the penalty for all man's sins so that, through him, we would have a guarantee of salvation? I know, sounds pretty crazy.

 

[Neogaia777]

I've had this idea floating around in my head for awhile now.... what if, and this is a big "what if"..... what if someone was to come and pay the penalty for all man's sins so that, through him, we would have a guarantee of salvation? I know, sounds pretty crazy.

Even Jesus didn't know whether those who would be saved would be very, very few, or very very many. He laid his life down to hopefully pay for the recompense of sin, but there are also maybe other reasons also, why people either might, or might not go, to either place, besides sin, etc.

Like just having some vessels for just only a bad use only, and beyond that have no other further reason to exist, etc.

In that case, it is not wrath or recompense, but is just about each one having a further or greater purpose that either does or does not go further or beyond just only more of this, etc.

God Bless.

 

[Neogaia777]

I've had this idea floating around in my head for awhile now.... what if, and this is a big "what if"..... what if someone was to come and pay the penalty for all man's sins so that, through him, we would have a guarantee of salvation? I know, sounds pretty crazy.

Because Jesus didn't even know, I took a guess at saying what I did about it, etc. (God's Judgement), (The Judgement, etc).

And that was that each one's judgement is going to be individual, according to each one's abilities, etc.

A lot of people are going to be very, very shocked I think though, as to who gets in and doesn't get in, and why, etc, but God is going to make it very, very clear as to why or why not for each and every single one, by the very end of it, etc.

And a lot of people who only thought they were good, or were righteous, or were "more better" than others, etc, are going to be very, very ashamed by the end of it, etc, and might even lose out on their salvation because of it, etc.

The only reason God even bringing them up so that others might know, etc.

God Bless.