A challenge for evolutionists.

Except for the fact that God KNEW they would eat it. It wasn't a test. He already knew their choice and yet he still supposedly went through with it, anyway.

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so your answer is elimate free will?

solja247 said:

so your answer is elimate free will?

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Answer to what?

The problem here is that the wife was not created by the husband. God created Adam and Eve with EVERY trait they possess. This includes an inquisitive nature, a tendancy to be tempted. God apparantly also created them somewhat naive and innocent. God is omniscient so he knew they would be tempted and knew they would take the fruit. How can he punish them for being the type of people he created them to be?

Take a 3 year old into the worlds largest toy shop and tell him he has to spend all day there without touching a single toy. How long do you think it would take him to touch a toy? Then turn around and punish him and all his descendents for disobeying you. Seems a bit rediculous doesn't it?

Answer to what?

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Except for the fact that God KNEW they would eat it. It wasn't a test. He already knew their choice and yet he still supposedly went through with it, anyway.

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The problem here is that the wife was not created by the husband. God created Adam and Eve with EVERY trait they possess. This includes an inquisitive nature, a tendancy to be tempted. God apparantly also created them somewhat naive and innocent. God is omniscient so he knew they would be tempted and knew they would take the fruit. How can he punish them for being the type of people he created them to be?

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Every day God talked with them. Every day God explianed to them the mysteries of the world. Lets look at it like this. I give you a garden and tell you not to eat the fruit of ONE tree because its poisonous and you will die. The garden is 100 acres. Are you seriously going to be tempted?

Take a 3 year old into the worlds largest toy shop and tell him he has to spend all day there without touching a single toy. How long do you think it would take him to touch a toy? Then turn around and punish him and all his descendents for disobeying you. Seems a bit rediculous doesn't it?

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It wasnt like that all. It was one toy. If you took a 3yr old to a big toy shop and said you can have everything in the toy shop, besides that red fire truck in the middle. If you touch the fire truck you will be in BIG trouble. I bet you they wouldnt touch it.

But what if another kid came and told him the toy was the best one in the shop and he really should play with it. Adam and Eve had never been exposed to deciept and believed that the animals in the garden were good. Why should they suspect he was evil?

But what if another kid came and told him the toy was the best one in the shop and he really should play with it. Adam and Eve had never been exposed to deciept and believed that the animals in the garden were good. Why should they suspect he was evil?

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In my understanding the serpent was the only animal which could talk. Secondly why shouldnt that boy trust his parents not the other boy? He has everything he can ever imagine. Hes got robots, puzzles, lego, paint, toy guns the list goes on and on...just dont touch that one red truck. I think honestly, that a kid wouldnt touch the red truck, if there was just one kid persuading him.

But as I said, they were not to know that the snake was trying to deceive them, it is not something they had encountered before. Unlike a child, Adam and Eve had no reason to believe the snake was not good.

solja247 said:

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Did I type a question without knowing? It was simply an observation. It's NOTHING like a father or husband or anything like that nor was it a test. A test is administered to gauge performance. God already knew what the performance would be. There was no test as he KNEW they would eat from the tree and he still went ahead and put the tree there, kicked them out, and blamed them entirely for it.

But as I said, they were not to know that the snake was trying to deceive them, it is not something they had encountered before. Unlike a child, Adam and Eve had no reason to believe the snake was not good.

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So? They should of trusted God. God gave them everything.

Did I type a question without knowing? It was simply an observation. It's NOTHING like a father or husband or anything like that nor was it a test. A test is administered to gauge performance. God already knew what the performance would be. There was no test as he KNEW they would eat from the tree and he still went ahead and put the tree there, kicked them out, and blamed them entirely for it.

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God knew you were going to be an athiest, why didnt he kill you?

solja247 said:

God knew you were going to be an athiest, why didnt he kill you?

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Assuming that God thinks atheists should die, then that is exactly the point. Why punish people for a situation you put them in?

Assuming that God thinks atheists should die, then that is exactly the point. Why punish people for a situation you put them in?

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Would you believe in God, if He personally talked with you every night? Adam and Eve had such a tight relationship they trusted a talking snake over God...

It would be like trusting a suicide bomber that everything was going to ok if he pulled the chord.

solja247 said:

Would you believe in God, if He personally talked with you every night? Adam and Eve had such a tight relationship they trusted a talking snake over God...

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Which doesn't say much for God that A&E found a snake more trustworthy than Him.

Do I really need to point this out?

Even according to Milton, Eve was seduced by the snake, who played to her vanity. She then used the fact that Adam loved her to convince him to repeat her sin.

You guys are trying to paint a picture of Adam and Eve looking at God and then looking at the snake and somehow deciding the snake was more applealing.

solja247 said:

A test my friend. It would be like your wife sleeping with her boss. She has choosen her boss over you.

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If that analogy was true, then it would be like me intentionally setting my wife up wit my boss in the full knowledge that she'd cheat on me and then getting ticked off by it.

Anyone would be quite within their rights to say to me, "You;re an idiot. If it is such a bad thing for your wife to sleep with her boss, why did you set up events that you KNEW would lead to it?"

And likewise, I am quite within my rights to say to God, "If If it is such a bad thing for Adam and Eve to eat from the tree, why did you set up events that you KNEW would lead to it?"

And I doubt he'd have a good answer for me.

I always thought the adam and eve myth was a metaphor. I'm continually amazed that there are adults who believe this story literally.

once again, Christian Fundamentalists fail to see that a literal reading of the story casts God in a very unfavourable light. They seem blind to this. Their God is a mean-spirited, vengeful, capricious git. CFs don't seem to have a problem with this. I, however, do.

It has been suggested in this thread that God is testing human free will. Why God would do this I don't know. He created man's free will in the first place, in fact He modelled it on His own, so He should have realised He was playing with fire, what with His own use of free will being more closely approximate to a paranoid delusional schizophrenic up to this point. So, true to form, God has a tantrum and decides to punish man for all time after adam and eve fail this one test. God isn't scoring many points in the 'rational, intelligent deity' chart here. But then the story isn't supposed to be taken literally.

The story is a metaphor for sexual awakening. It's what happens to all of us during puberty. We lose those innocent choldhood days when nakedness was no more than that: nakedness; and suddenly develop new, alarming urges. These urges usher in a host of attendant, confusing emotions which baffle, befuddle and make fools of most of us for the rest of our lives. Or until we lose our libido, which has memorably been described as "like being unchained from a lunatic". This, in my opinion, is the basis of the myth.

Of course, being a primitive religious story they crowbar in the whole concept of sin, and man being born in sin, and the rest of the garbage. But that's by the by.

What's staggering is that people believe it literally happened one day in a garden with an apple tree and a snake. The mixture of poor education, brain washing and sheer stupidity involved in believing this ought to mean instant counselling, if not a lengthy hospital stay; but in America, ironically the home of psychotherapy, it's not considered too mad.

Meanwhile, we get the sadistic pleasure of watching CFs tying themselves in knots trying to justify their position in threads like this.

solja247 said:

In my understanding the serpent was the only animal which could talk. Secondly why shouldnt that boy trust his parents not the other boy? He has everything he can ever imagine. Hes got robots, puzzles, lego, paint, toy guns the list goes on and on...just dont touch that one red truck. I think honestly, that a kid wouldnt touch the red truck, if there was just one kid persuading him.

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I'd personally take away the red truck. The evil red truck, which on its surface is not really any different than any other toy, and which for some reason (a reason unexplained to the kid) it is deadly; I would remove it from the room, I would destroy it, I would do my darnedest to make sure that the kid couldn't touch it and then put himself in the way of grave harm. If I loved him, that's what I'd do. If I just wanted to see him suffer for my own pleasure, well, then I'd leave it right there for him to get to.

You can attempt to call that the removal of free will if you want, but it's not. The kid also doesn't have the ability to fly by flapping his arms, or hold his breath for 30 minutes, or run 200 mph, or fit a whole watermelon in his mouth at once. All these things he cannot do. Making it so that he cannot touch the red truck is no more of an intrusion on free will than any of those things.

Gawron said:

Do I really need to point this out?

Even according to Milton, Eve was seduced by the snake, who played to her vanity. She then used the fact that Adam loved her to convince him to repeat her sin.

You guys are trying to paint a picture of Adam and Eve looking at God and then looking at the snake and somehow deciding the snake was more applealing.

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Gawron, that's kind of what "seduction" (your word) implies.

Gawron said:

Do I really need to point this out?

Even according to Milton, Eve was seduced by the snake, who played to her vanity. She then used the fact that Adam loved her to convince him to repeat her sin.

You guys are trying to paint a picture of Adam and Eve looking at God and then looking at the snake and somehow deciding the snake was more applealing.

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Well it evidently was, for vanity or whatever reasons. It's not Eve's fault that God made her in such a way that she could be manipulated through her vanity.