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A Challenge for Anti-evolutionists

David Evarts

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There are three challenges here. The second one is exponentially more difficultthan the first and the third even more so. The rewards start big and also increase exponentially. To the best of my knowledge, few anti-evolutionists have really given these a serious college try, though scientists are constantly trying. You've got competition. If you accomplish any fraction of any of these your anti-evolutionary peers and sceintists of all faiths will reward you richly and you will make many converts.

1.) Provide a testable hypothesis that calls into question descent with
modification from common ancestors. (The theory of evolution)

The reward for meeting this challenge is scientific fame and job offers. If youcarry out the test, even without positive results, your fame and fortune willgrow. If you have positive results you will likely receive publication in Nature or Science, the flagship science journals. It's a bit like a musician appearingon the cover of Rolling Stone magazine. You are also going to receive joboffers, acclaim and essentially rock stardom. Scientists, such as Stephen JayGould, have made entire careers out of attempting this with no positive resultsor subtly (but without luck) trying to nudge the picture of evolutionarygradualism.

2.) Provide a replacement hypothesis for the theory of evolution that explainscurrent observations and makes predictions or even a single prediction for future discoveries or tests with positive results.(or even some part of current observations, especially the observed age of the earth. Note the age of the earth is not itself a part of the theory of evolution, but an old earth ispredicted by the theory of evolution.)

This one is a big order and your competition is stiff. Darwins' hypothesis andthe subsequent modifications (such as the modern synthesis) have currectly explained and predicted so many observations, discoveries and positive teststhat this is your biggest competitor. The field is filled with competitors. Although he failed to make any correct predictions or explain many phenomena and has been thouroughly debunked (as well as having been shown to be unbiblical) Morris's revival of a long dead timeline from the 7th Day Adventists in "TheGenesis Flood: The Biblical Record and its Implications" gained him acclaim and sold very well. Biologists of all types are seeking this prize. The reward for providing even a partial replacement or modification for the theory of evolutionthat yeilds positive results is undying fame. Slight modifications will causeyour name and hypothesis to be learned by every freshman biology student. A replacement would eclipse Darwin and launch you into the type of undying fame ofEinstein.

3.) Do #2, while providing a hypothesis that honors the Christian God as well asor better than the theory of evolution or alternatively satisfies todaysreligious anti-evolutionists.

In either of these cases, you would attain not only the top tier of scientific stardom and rewards, but would also eclipse Origen, Augustine, Luther and possibly even Paul as the preeminent theologian and church leader. I would most probably become your follower as would essentially all Christians working in
science and a host of others.

Go forth! And, good luck. :):thumbsup:
 

AV1611VET

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I neither care for the rewards, nor care how hard these challenges are; but here's my input, for what it's worth:
1.) Provide a testable hypothesis that calls into question descent with modification from common ancestors.

2.) Provide a replacement hypothesis for the theory of evolution that explainscurrent observations and makes predictions or even a single prediction for future discoveries or tests with positive results.

3.) Do #2, while providing a hypothesis that honors the Christian God as well asor better than the theory of evolution or alternatively satisfies todaysreligious anti-evolutionists.
1. Punctuated equilibrium

2. Future discovery = herbivorous lions

3. Embedded Age Creation
Go forth! And, good luck. :):thumbsup:
Thank you, but sound doctrine shouldn't run on luck.
 
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Greg1234

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There are three challenges here. The second one is exponentially more difficultthan the first and the third even more so. The rewards start big and also increase exponentially. To the best of my knowledge, few anti-evolutionists have really given these a serious college try, though scientists are constantly trying. You've got competition. If you accomplish any fraction of any of these your anti-evolutionary peers and sceintists of all faiths will reward you richly and you will make many converts.
Natural selection does not weed out mutations detrimental to the organism itself as is commonly proclaimed but selects among them.
2.) Provide a replacement hypothesis for the theory of evolution that explainscurrent observations and makes predictions or even a single prediction for future discoveries or tests with positive results.
First of all, it would be best to recognize that intelligent mechanisms behind adaptation replace adaptation arising through chance and necessity.

01/07/30 - ICBP 2000

McClintock recognized that genetic change is a cellular process, subject to regulation, and is not dependent on stochastic accidents. The idea of internally-generated, biologically regulated mutation has profound impacts for thinking about the process of evolution. Darwin himself acknowledged this point in later editions of Origin of Species, where he wrote about natural "sports" or "...variations which seem to us in our ignorance to arise spontaneously. It appears that I formerly underrated the frequency and value of these latter forms of variation, as leading to permanent modifications of structure independently of natural selection." (6th edition, Chapter XV, p. 395).​

Research showing that this could revolutionize the way bacterial infections are treated follows. Antibiotics usually attack the organism's ability to reproduce. After that a mutation ensues which renders that population resistant. The following paper documents new research and explores the idea of attacking both the mechanism behind adaptation and its ability to reproduce.

PLoS Biology: Inhibition of Mutation and Combating the Evolution of Antibiotic Resistance

The emergence of drug-resistant bacteria poses a serious threat to human health. In the case of several antibiotics, including those of the quinolone and rifamycin classes, bacteria rapidly acquire resistance through mutation of chromosomal genes during therapy. In this work, we show that preventing induction of the SOS response by interfering with the activity of the protease LexA renders pathogenic Escherichia coli unable to evolve resistance in vivo to ciprofloxacin or rifampicin, important quinolone and rifamycin antibiotics. We show in vitro that LexA cleavage is induced during RecBC-mediated repair of ciprofloxacin-mediated DNA damage and that this results in the derepression of the SOS-regulated polymerases Pol II, Pol IV and Pol V, which collaborate to induce resistance-conferring mutations. Our findings indicate that the inhibition of mutation could serve as a novel therapeutic strategy to combat the evolution of antibiotic resistance.(bold mine)​

The LexA(S119A) mutant cannot undergo autoproteolysis and thus renders bacteria unable to de-repress the SOS genes​

We next used the same mouse model to characterize the evolution of resistance to rifampicin in vivo. Again, mice were infected with 106 cfu of either the ΔlacZ control or the lexA(S119A) 25922 strain. Rifampicin (100 mg/kg) was administered every 12 h, mice were sacrificed after 24, 48, and 72 h, and the total number of viable and rifampicin-resistant cfu was determined. Treatment with rifampicin also had a slow bactericidal effect on both strains (Figure 1B); however, by 72 h all of the ΔlacZ clones recovered from the thigh were resistant to rifampicin. MICs of individual rifampicin-resistant ΔlacZ clones were all higher than 250 μg/ml (ten clones analyzed), which is substantially higher than the 8 μg/ml MIC of the parent strain. Remarkably, despite the rapid acquisition of resistance in the control strain, no resistant clones were isolated from mice infected with the lexA(S119A) strain. The MICs of the lexA(S119A) clones recovered from the mouse thigh remained 8 μg/ml, approximately the same as the parent strain (ten clones analyzed). We conclude that LexA cleavage is absolutely required for the evolution of resistance to both ciprofloxacin and rifampicin during therapy in vivo.​

http://www.uncommondescent.com/evolution/why-scientists-should-not-dismiss-intelligent-design/

Nor is it clear that in the evolution of nylonase that anything like pure neo-Darwinism was operating. Instead, we see something much more like what James Shapiro describes as “natural genetic engineering” (go here). And how do systems that do their own genetic engineering arise? According to Shapiro, Darwinism (whether neo or otherwise) offers no insight here.​
3.) Do #2, while providing a hypothesis that honors the Christian God as well asor better than the theory of evolution or alternatively satisfies todaysreligious anti-evolutionists.
The fact that there is an intelligent response mechanism to environmental stresses further detracts from materialism. Cases of adaptation are cited as evidence for Darwinian evolution yet random mutation would need to have given rise to the very mechanism behind adaptation when it may not even be behind adaptation.
 
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David Evarts

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I neither care for the rewards, nor care how hard these challenges are; but here's my input, for what it's worth:

1. Punctuated equilibrium

2. Future discovery = herbivorous lions

3. Embedded Age Creation

Thank you, but sound doctrine shouldn't run on luck.

1.)
Sorry AV1611VET, but punctuated equilibrium does not call into question the theory of evolution or meet any of the other criteria. If it were not simply a case of already observed gradualism with occaisional hot spots of speciation as the changes built up, it could modify the origional theory of evolution to say something like descent with modification from a common ancestor occurs in bursts. But, it's also already been done. Let me encourage you though. Just for making the case that punctuated equilibrium could provide an evidence based modest modification of the theory of evolution, Stephen Jay Gould and company received extravagent rewards. Of course, like Dr. Gould, you might have to trumpet your modest modification as potentially game changing to get the fame and such.

2.)How or why would the discovery of herbivorous lions provide evidence for any hypothesis that would be an alternative to evolution? You'll have to provide an alternative hypothesis that predicts the possibility of herbivorous lions. If its got testable features and explains currently observed phenomena, you'll reall have something going. If it does any of those things as well or better than the theory of evolution, your new career awaits. I'll help write it up. :)

3.) What is embedded age creation? Explain, please. Is it an idea that old things look young? If so, how do you test this and what predictions can you make from this? Also, as far as providing a hypothesis that is a biblical/theological improvement or equal to the the theory of evolution this is not. It's an insult to God. The arguement that anti-evolutionists used to use that "God made it look like the earth is old or that evolution has happened" makes God into a charlatan. So, your unlikely to get the "I want to be a memorable theologian" bonus prize with a "God is tricking us" hypothesis.

This might not be the type of project that a person can take on in a day. I'm hoping for, but not expecting serious responses. So, you'll need to do a bit better than throw some words out there. Many scientists and many anti-evolutionists have been working on this for a while. But, if any of you do get a part of this figured out and ready for testing, can I claim some of the credit? :wave:

I'm a Christian and a fan of Darwin, so if you can meet any of these challenges, you are likely to at least get your first disciple in me.
 
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AV1611VET

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Problem...punctuated equilibrium is fiction.
Actually, I believe in a modified punctuated equilibrium that you [probably] don't want to know about.

It's avant-garde, but it effectively explains how the earth was repopulated after the Flood.
 
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VehementiDominus

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1.)
Sorry AV1611VET, but punctuated equilibrium does not call into question the theory of evolution or meet any of the other criteria. If it were not simply a case of already observed gradualism with occaisional hot spots of speciation as the changes built up, it could modify the origional theory of evolution to say something like descent with modification from a common ancestor occurs in bursts. But, it's also already been done. Let me encourage you though. Just for making the case that punctuated equilibrium could provide an evidence based modest modification of the theory of evolution, Stephen Jay Gould and company received extravagent rewards. Of course, like Dr. Gould, you might have to trumpet your modest modification as potentially game changing to get the fame and such.

2.)How or why would the discovery of herbivorous lions provide evidence for any hypothesis that would be an alternative to evolution? You'll have to provide an alternative hypothesis that predicts the possibility of herbivorous lions. If its got testable features and explains currently observed phenomena, you'll reall have something going. If it does any of those things as well or better than the theory of evolution, your new career awaits. I'll help write it up. :)

3.) What is embedded age creation? Explain, please. Is it an idea that old things look young? If so, how do you test this and what predictions can you make from this? Also, as far as providing a hypothesis that is a biblical/theological improvement or equal to the the theory of evolution this is not. It's an insult to God. The arguement that anti-evolutionists used to use that "God made it look like the earth is old or that evolution has happened" makes God into a charlatan. So, your unlikely to get the "I want to be a memorable theologian" bonus prize with a "God is tricking us" hypothesis.

This might not be the type of project that a person can take on in a day. I'm hoping for, but not expecting serious responses. So, you'll need to do a bit better than throw some words out there. Many scientists and many anti-evolutionists have been working on this for a while. But, if any of you do get a part of this figured out and ready for testing, can I claim some of the credit? :wave:

I'm a Christian and a fan of Darwin, so if you can meet any of these challenges, you are likely to at least get your first disciple in me.


I wouldn't worry about AV. I don't think he's um... all there upstairs, so to speak.

Apparently, science can take a hike.

So can logic.

Also, becuase you can't prove miracles happened, it means they definately, 100% did.

You won't get much out of him.
 
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VehementiDominus

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Actually, I believe in a modified punctuated equilibrium that you [probably] don't want to know about.

It's avant-garde, but it effectively explains how the earth was repopulated after the Flood.

Nonsense. We both know excatly what this is going to come down to - your own little, baseless, deus ex machina - "It was a miracle.".
 
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AV1611VET

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Also, becuase you can't prove miracles happened, it means they definately, 100% did.
More to the point is: God said it -- that settles it.

Proof can take a hike.
 
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VehementiDominus

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More to the point is: God said it -- that settles it.

Proof can take a hike.


So why not Allah said it?

Or Brahman?

Or Quetzalcoatl?

Or Zeus?

Or Ra?

Or Jupiter?

Also, "proof" is a mathematical term, so I'll use mathematics to show you how stupid that premise is.

If you have 2 lights, and 2 more lights how many lights do you have?

The evidence, looking at all the lights and counting them says 4. Considering evidence can take a hike, we can't go with that.

Which is right?

There are 5 lights.

Or.

There are 4 lights.

(I was initially going to use apples... but I couldn't pass up the opportunity to make that reference.)
 
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AV1611VET

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Nonsense. We both know excatly what this is going to come down to - your own little, baseless, deus ex machina - "It was a miracle."
As they say: the Truth hurts, doesn't it?
 
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AV1611VET

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So why not Allah said it?

Or Brahman?

Or Quetzalcoatl?

Or Zeus?

Or Ra?

Or Jupiter?

Also, "proof" is a mathematical term.
Simple:

  1. Allah = false deity, worshipped by a false prophet
  2. Brahma = false deity
  3. Quetzalcoatl = false deity
  4. Zeus = false deity
  5. Ra = false deity, shown to be false by God, Himself
  6. Jupiter = false deity, called a "vanity" by Paul -- (Acts 14:15)
 
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VehementiDominus

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Simple:

  1. Allah = false deity, worshipped by a false prophet
  2. Brahma = false deity
  3. Quetzalcoatl = false deity
  4. Zeus = false deity
  5. Ra = false deity, shown to be false by God, Himself
  6. Jupiter = false deity, called a "vanity" by Paul -- (Acts 14:15)


Now add to that list:

7. God = False deity.
 
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AV1611VET

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Your "Truth" hurts, but only because I can't stop laughing at it.
"My" Truth is no stranger to laughter.

Matthew 9:24 He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.

... and people still laugh at Him today.
 
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VehementiDominus

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"My" Truth is no stranger to laughter.

Matthew 9:24 He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.

... and people still laugh at Him today.


Your "Truth" is only worth laughter and mockery. It's a joke and you still haven't picked up on the punchline.
 
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AV1611VET

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Now add to that list:

7. God = False deity.
No, thanks -- I know where to draw the line.

Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
 
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