A Call for Christian Action: Obscene Evil

[PastorFreud]

While I personally find many things on that site disgusting, I would not want to resort to using demonic power. I don't mind the suggestions that we persuade others to monitor their kids, persuade the site owners to take additional measures to help solve the problem of people getting inside the site without going through the front door, or generating creative solutions with software or internet structure. I also support the idea that if illegal activities are occuring, these should be brought to the attention of proper authorities and the authorities encouraged to enforce legal standards. However, to try to use political power to stop people from legal activities is demonic and I could not support that.

It doesn't help to employ the slippery slope fallacy. If these people can have a website like that, then we should send our kids to shark infested waters to swim. If adults pursue disgusting, but legal activities, then we have to allow for disgusting and illegal activities too. This is a breeding ground for a witch hunt. But, of course, the real witches are typically those who participate in the hunt.

 

[funyun]

While I personally find many things on that site disgusting, I would not want to resort to using demonic power. I don't mind the suggestions that we persuade others to monitor their kids, persuade the site owners to take additional measures to help solve the problem of people getting inside the site without going through the front door, or generating creative solutions with software or internet structure. I also support the idea that if illegal activities are occuring, these should be brought to the attention of proper authorities and the authorities encouraged to enforce legal standards. However, to try to use political power to stop people from legal activities is demonic and I could not support that.

It doesn't help to employ the slippery slope fallacy. If these people can have a website like that, then we should send our kids to shark infested waters to swim. If adults pursue disgusting, but legal activities, then we have to allow for disgusting and illegal activities too. This is a breeding ground for a witch hunt. But, of course, the real witches are typically those who participate in the hunt.

I agree, but I wouldn't say that stopping ppl from legal activities is demonic. It's just not the right thing to do IMO.

 

[PastorFreud]

I agree, but I wouldn't say that stopping ppl from legal activities is demonic. It's just not the right thing to do IMO.

Hmmm... I am a Christian and believe that Jesus was quite clear regarding the use of power to force people to do what they otherwise would not. This is the definition of demonic power, to control others against their will. This is not the same as preventing people from doing harm to others. In the case of a person who is actively seeking to harm someone else, we have more complex considerations. But in the case of people who are not actively seeking to harm someone else, the situation is different.

I visited the site and noted that they have several warnings on the front page and advertisements for patrol software. Still, I think they could do more to make sure underage people don't wander in accidently. They have this obligation, the same as a shooting range owner should make sure no one can accidentally wonder into the range. A sign is not enough. But to call for the shooting range to be shut down because teenagers cut through the fence and intentionally stand in front of the targets is another problem. The use of top down power is antithetical to the message of Christ.

 

[spreefamily]

Thanks all for the responses so far. Just a few points to clarify:

1. The site is registered in Perkin, Ill. USA

2. The site is like just like eBay, but the auctions are for hard-core videos, and body fluid and feces covered items. There appear to be hundreds of different people who sell and buy there. There is a feedback system just like ebay's showing that many sellers have sold many items to satisfied buyers. Most indicate that they gladly accept paypal payments, and ensure speedy deliverly through the US postal service.

3. Those who keep insisting that we should watch our kids, have missed the point entirely. It doesn't matter if only 93 year-olds are visiting the site. (A) Most of the photos and descriptions in the auctions violate the obscenity laws of the USA (B) It is illegal to send the material described through regular US mail (C) Paypal claims it doesn't take payments for auctions of adult auction items.

 

[feral]

I think that parents have an obligation to monitor their children's Internet usage. There are several different types of protection software which block specific sites or sites with certain themes, such as sex or swearing. Install one. Remove your children's computer from their bedroom and place it in a popular area of the house such as den or family room, where you can frequently monitor what they are watching. If you child is constantly viewing things against your wishes, remove the modem each day and keep it in your trunk at work until you're home, or switch your dial up password. It's quite simple really. The solution is not to remove all sites from the Internet which you personally don't want your child to view. Adults have the right to discuss and make private arrangements regarding the purchase of above listed items, and if the U.S. Postal Service refuses to deliver, so be it. However, don't expect the government to step in and alter an entire system because of your beliefs.

Here's a tip - if your child is expressing an unusual or obsessive interest in the sale of used underclothes and bodily fluids, perhaps communication with him/her would be more effective then complaining. Obviously your child has some questions about these topics which have not been addressed. If it's simple curiosity then perhaps frank discussion about the body, sexuality and fetishes ought to take place...and if it's a deeper problem then maybe counseling in the answer. Regardless, the answer certainly is not to restrict other peoples freedom to view what they please online, or to deny and ignore the situation.

 

[Havoc]

Thanks all for the responses so far. Just a few points to clarify:

1. The site is registered in Perkin, Ill. USA

Big deal. My uncle works on a freighter registered in Liberia. The ship has never been to Liberia. Anyone can rent a mailbox in Perkin, Ill... even Osama Bin Laden if he wanted to.

What's important is... where is the server? Ahhh but we don't know that do we.

2. The site is like just like eBay, but the auctions are for hard-core videos, and body fluid and feces covered items. There appear to be hundreds of different people who sell and buy there. There is a feedback system just like ebay's showing that many sellers have sold many items to satisfied buyers. Most indicate that they gladly accept paypal payments, and ensure speedy deliverly through the US postal service.

The site is just like... there appears to be... are we noticing a trend here? Have you ever been to Landover Baptist Church website? Have you noticed the merchandise for sale there? Have you perused the discussion board that gets 500+ messages a day? It's completely bogus, yet people get sucked in by the thousands.

If you think they are committing a crime then report it to the authorities. But that wouldn't serve incite religious zeal and moral outrage, would it?

3. Those who keep insisting that we should watch our kids, have missed the point entirely. It doesn't matter if only 93 year-olds are visiting the site. (A) Most of the photos and descriptions in the auctions violate the obscenity laws of the USA (B) It is illegal to send the material described through regular US mail (C) Paypal claims it doesn't take payments for auctions of adult auction items.

Actually it is you who is missing the point entirely.

 

[spreefamily]

I think that parents have an obligation to monitor ....
...Here's a tip - if your child is expressing .

Oh brother, please re-read the thread in its entirety.

Big deal. My uncle works on a freighter registered in Liberia. The ship has never been to Liberia. Anyone can rent a mailbox in Perkin, Ill... even Osama Bin Laden if he wanted to.
What's important is... where is the server? Ahhh but we don't know that do we..

The site is on two servers the main one is in Ill. and a secondary backup in Calif. Any whois search shows this information.

The site is just like... there appears to be... are we noticing a trend here? Have you ever been to Landover Baptist Church website? Have you noticed the merchandise for sale there? Have you perused the discussion board that gets 500+ messages a day? It's completely bogus, yet people get sucked in by the thousands.

I've never visited that site, and we're not talking about "bogus" church sites here anyway.

If you think they are committing a crime then report it to the authorities. But that wouldn't serve incite religious zeal and moral outrage, would it?

I have reported it, and the purpose of my post was to make other responsible, moral adults aware of the problem so they can report it as well. My post wasn't meant for rock worshipping adolescents with a low self-esteem. Sorry it offended you.

Actually it is you who is missing the point entirely.

That makes sense, I've missed the point of my own post? Ahhh...okay.

 

[PastorFreud]

Thanks all for the responses so far. Just a few points to clarify:

1. The site is registered in Perkin, Ill. USA

Then it should be accountable to US laws about this sort of thing. Unfortunately, the laws are not always clear cut.

2. The site is like just like eBay, but the auctions are for hard-core videos, and body fluid and feces covered items. There appear to be hundreds of different people who sell and buy there. There is a feedback system just like ebay's showing that many sellers have sold many items to satisfied buyers. Most indicate that they gladly accept paypal payments, and ensure speedy deliverly through the US postal service.

It seems real enough to me. I never saw that it might be a joke. Therefore, I think you have a legitimate concern. Mailing bodily fluids and so forth is illegal for a reason. This does have a potential for contamination and could put others as risk. From this standpoint, I think you have a legit point that you should pursue. See my comments below for more on this.

3. Those who keep insisting that we should watch our kids, have missed the point entirely. It doesn't matter if only 93 year-olds are visiting the site. (A) Most of the photos and descriptions in the auctions violate the obscenity laws of the USA (B) It is illegal to send the material described through regular US mail (C) Paypal claims it doesn't take payments for auctions of adult auction items.

I am not sure that we have missed the point entirely for mentioning this factor. It is important for parents to monitor their kids for a variety of reasons, one being that kids won't have the resources to do anything if they do come across something illegal. You found out about this by monitoring your son, right? So the point is valid.

The problem I have in understanding your point is what you think we should do. If you post to remind us to monitor our kids, then fine. Point taken. If you post to gain our support to force the site to close down because you don't personally approve of the content, then I reject your point absolutely. There must be more to go on than your personal preferences. If your point is that the site is definitely breaking the law and you want support in reporting this to the authorities, then I would support you if you could establish your case a little more clearly.

Regarding point A, I have not seen enough of the site to say "most" of the items do anything. I am even fuzzier on the breaking of obscenity laws. By placing the site behind a warning screen, they may not be breaking the law. Like you, I believe the screen they have is not enough. But I think the best place for pressure to come from would be the adult industry. If a site like this one is considered to not be following the industry standards, it would affect the industry. Perhaps we should write to the adult verification services and urge them to explain to the website owners the problems, which they would understand better than you or I.

Regarding point B, I agree completely. You have won this argument with me. The question I have now is how does one report these things. Nothing has been mailed yet, so we only have a potential crime. I am wondering how eBay handles it. They are a portal. Are all ads reviewed before posting? I have heard of people jokingly putting their kids up for sale. What obligation does eBay (and thus the website under discussion) have to uphold USPS regulations? We need more information to be effective.

Regarding point C, I am wondering the same as above. Does Paypal even know? It might be in this case that enough people reporting the sellers on the site would be enough for Paypal to close individual accounts of offenders. Perhaps the website owner could make it clear to posters that they should not use PayPal and give examples of the consequences. I use PayPal, but to my knowledge PayPal has no idea what I sell on my website.

It all depends on what you are trying to accomplish here. I don't think that offering breast milk for sale online is proper. But I can't exactly say that it is illegal without more information. I can agree that shipping the breastmilk might violate USPS regulations. Milk might be considered food and would actually pass, but some of the other items that I will not mention would not pass for sure. If I knew who to complain to, I would join that movement as I believe shipping bodily fluids serves a health risk. If you want to alert PayPal regarding what is happening, I support that too. Since their stated policy is being violated, alerting them to this detail is reasonable.

Regardless of all this, the point of being aware of things kids can come across online is well taken.

Could you be more clear what it is you would like to accomplish?

 

[Invader Pichu]

This web site has absolutely no protection in place to prevent minors or the unknowing from accessing it.

What about the warning on the first page?


If parents really didn't want their kids on such sites, they should monitor them.

 

[PastorFreud]

What about the warning on the first page?


If parents really didn't want their kids on such sites, they should monitor them.

The front page warning does not appear if you come across one of the pages via a search engine. That is one reason that I agree the material should be behind an adult verification of some kind. There are some out there that only cost $1, but validate adult age by way of charging the credit card for the $1. If they put the site behind one of those screens, even a random page would not be able to be viewed without a password. I think this would be a reasonable thing to do and should be encouraged.

 

[Lucubratus]

the only clear cut law I know as pertaining to this site (and all I did was enter in the link for the first page and did see the disclaimer) is the selling of bodily fluids. I'm not going to browse onto that page and see if there's anything else - but if there's photo's of underage children being shown or sold that are sexually explicit - that's another violated law.
beyond that, It's people's perogative to view nasty things. Though what PastorFrued mentioned about password protected sites so that even an accidental/on purpose search engine finds it - a page automatically pops up and keeps the viewer from getting onto the site.

I'd agree with those saying online usage with kids involved should be monitored. It's not very difficult to get onto a porn site, but it's also not that easy to get them onto links; just a few 'raunchy words' on a search engine is all it takes - or even a common word like a** - what kid has business putting that into a search engine? Sometimes I have entered in words that, when the links were displayed - they were apparently obvious as being part of a porno site. Something as innocent as a celebrity's name has popped up porn related links.
I didn't have a computer or online access as a kid, but I know my Mom - and she was one of those that would have the 'puter in the general family room and restrictions placed on the internet in the first place.

 

[transientlife]

Where am I? Frankly, I'm rather surprised by the responses here. As Christians we need to be pro-active in making our world more family friendly. The philosopy that obscenity is an accepted part of our culture is pathetic. The philosophy that we as adults shouldn't take every step we can to protect our children is worse.

1)This is not an issue of "Every body is free to do their own thing". This is not a site with a few photos of naked ladies, the photos and descriptions posted there are clearly in violation of the obscenity laws.

2)A "you should be 18" statement is not a protective measure to keep children out. A system that verifies age is a requirement. Secondly, that weak statement is on a "dummy page" the links from google, etc go directly to the obscene material and bypass that page.

3)"You should watch you kid". The site is now blocked on our computer, how about on the millions of other children's computers? Watching your kids is great, however, obscene materials in violation of our obscenity laws shouldn't be accessible to children in the first place.

4)Scam? I hardly think so by the number of people that seem to be involved there. Regardless, Paypal and the US mail are named with logos in the auctions, I'm sure they'd like to know that they are being associated with this obscene material.

I see where you as a parent would be offended by your young and probably impressionable son seeing that material. I do agree, however, with other posters that state parents are the first line of 'defense' as far as monitoring, not the government . Good for you to speak up about it being offensive to YOU - and I'm sure you were proactive in correcting the situation, but bear in mind that just because you find it offensive, others (Christian and otherwise) might not find it as thoroughly offensive as you did. (I know some people -Christians included- with very WEIRD senses of humor who would just laugh at the absurdity of such a site and not give it further thought or attention.) And as seeing you're a good parent and care what he sees on the internet, I'm sure you've already explained to him at length that in accordance with your family's beliefs, sites like that are inappropriate and he should be wary of what he clicks on from now on. You'll never being able to sanitize (meaning family friendly) everything in life because there are countless interests and beliefs that people pursue, and at one time or another will be made aware of, whether you approve of them or not. You're doing the best just by teaching your child what is and what is not appropriate and how to differentiate them in the type of world we live in.

 

[crashedman]

Dear Fellow Christians:
With horror I found that my teenage son had been visting a web site Ebanned.net
that contains the most obscene and vulgar material I have ever seen even as an adult. This web site has absolutely no protection in place to prevent minors or the unknowing from accessing it. My son told me that he found it simply by searching for auctions on a major search site. Extremely explicit photos are the least of the evil found on this disgusting place. The web site has hundreds of auctions for dirty used underware, bags of feces, bottles of sperm and urine, used tampons, etc. All of these auctions contain explicit photos and descriptions. Large type proudly proclaim that payment for these items can be through Paypal, and that they are sent through the US mail service.

This web site is obscene by anyone's definition, there is nothing to stop a child from accessing it as my son did. I urge those serious about protecting our children and our family values to write your complaints to Paypal and the US postal service about allowing this illegal activity. Please also write to your State's attorney general and your representatives in Washington to get this filth out of children's hands. If anyone has any suggestions on other resources to help with this, please post them. God Bless.

Hi,

As sad as it might sound, you can't stop kids from accessing sites like this. Whew! I thought the rotten.com site was sick enough.

The thing is theat the majority of kids take those things in their stride, they usually find that stuff disgusting and amusing at the same tiome. Like myself: I used to listen to scatalogical comedy records and watch movies like Psycho when I was a kid. It didn't make me grow up into a deranged and depraved public enemy. I wouyld agree though that if I was a dad I'
d be very wary of my kids viewing such material.

Do you not think that the Bible is also full of nasty verses and ideas that you don't want your kids to read? Check this site out www.jesus21.com and you can see how this young lady has made a mint out of marketing scatlogy from the use of the Bible.





Crashedman

 

[Plodzilla]

It's not the fact kids can see it that people should be worried about. They'll see far worse in their lives. It's how they react to it. I'm not suggesting compulsory desensitisation, but if they grow up unaware or fearful of stuff like that, they'll probably end up as one of the people that buy from the site. If it's illegal, make a protest, if not accept it. It really is no big deal. If your kid has half a brain, he'll laugh it off.

 

[transientlife]

It's not the fact kids can see it that people should be worried about. They'll see far worse in their lives. It's how they react to it. I'm not suggesting compulsory desensitisation, but if they grow up unaware or fearful of stuff like that, they'll probably end up as one of the people that buy from the site. If it's illegal, make a protest, if not accept it. It really is no big deal. If your kid has half a brain, he'll laugh it off.

Exactly

 

[Spike~]

Dear Fellow Christians:
With horror I found that my teenage son had been visting a web site Ebanned.net
that contains the most obscene and vulgar material I have ever seen even as an adult. This web site has absolutely no protection in place to prevent minors or the unknowing from accessing it. My son told me that he found it simply by searching for auctions on a major search site. Extremely explicit photos are the least of the evil found on this disgusting place. The web site has hundreds of auctions for dirty used underware, bags of feces, bottles of sperm and urine, used tampons, etc. All of these auctions contain explicit photos and descriptions. Large type proudly proclaim that payment for these items can be through Paypal, and that they are sent through the US mail service.

This web site is obscene by anyone's definition, there is nothing to stop a child from accessing it as my son did. I urge those serious about protecting our children and our family values to write your complaints to Paypal and the US postal service about allowing this illegal activity. Please also write to your State's attorney general and your representatives in Washington to get this filth out of children's hands. If anyone has any suggestions on other resources to help with this, please post them. God Bless.

A. Thanks for the link, found a few things on there I kinda want.

B. It's odd, yes, obscene, sure, disgusting for some, of course. But it's an adult site. It states that. And this stuff isn't illegal. Just because you don't like what's on it, doesn't mean it should be cencored. If you don't want your children to see this, then buy some sort of cencoring program. It's not the government's job to raise your kids, it's yours.

There is nothing wrong with this site, from a legal standpoint. Everything else is relative.

 

[spreefamily]

There is nothing wrong with this site, from a legal standpoint. Everything else is relative.

Are you an experienced attorney in the area of obscenity law?
I will be happy to post links to the current laws on the books that say this material is obscene if there is interest.

 

[Spike~]

By current law, yea, it is obscene. I checked into obscenity laws a while back, I know what they are.

But, IIRC, that simply means it isn't protected by the First Addmendment. Doesn't require the government to go out and shut it down. It doesn't break any law like kiddy porn sites do.

But please, post your links, it's ben a while since I readd up on the laws, and I might be wrong.