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Congratulation! You've earned a spot in the abyss by ignoring my question and the fact that I answered you about Rev 12 in a previous thread.
But you can still roam the earth. You can be in 2 places at the same time.
Congratulation! You've earned a spot in the abyss by ignoring my question and the fact that I answered you about Rev 12 in a previous thread.
But you can still roam the earth. You can be in 2 places at the same time.
A figure of speech is a word or phrase used in a non-literal sense for rhetorical or vivid effect. I see that you're married. Have you ever been in "the dog house?"Are you seriously judging someone who disagrees with you, claiming that you have the power to send them "to the abyss"? REALLY??
Are you seriously judging someone who disagrees with you, claiming that you have the power to send them "to the abyss"? REALLY??
I'm not saying you are saying satan's time in the pit can be found in Revelation 12. And that's actually part of the problem since Amils should be saying that if they are correct about when satan is in the pit.
You are not grasping my point. My point is, Revelation 12 covers the NT church era, the same era Amils claim satan is in the pit. After what verse in Revelation 12 should one insert the beginning of satan's binding? After what verse in Revelation 12 should one insert the end of satan's binding? Logically, how can satan's binding not be in Revelation 12 if Revelation 12 is covering the same 2000 years Amils claim satan is in the pit?
If Amils are correct about satan's time in the pit is parallelling the NT church age, yet neglecting to show this in Revelation 12, doesn't that indicate Amils are not correct to begin with? Because if they are correct, and the fact Revelation 12 clearly covers the entire NT church era, Amils should easily without much effort, show after what verse in Revelation 12 one should insert the beginning of satan's binding. And after what verse in Revelation 12 should one insert the end of satan's binding.
Let's reduce Revelation 12 to the following verses. All the verses before verse 9, satan apparently still had access to heaven. I could be wrong, but I don't think anyone would argue that he was bound in the pit while he still had access to heaven.
Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Verse 9 fits with verse 12-17, like such.
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
If satan's 2000 years in the pit fit in this age before the 2nd coming, the above is the only place in Revelation 12 it can possibly fit. Where do you propose in the block of text above that the beginning of satan's 2000 years in the pit initially begin? Where do you propose in the block of text above that the end of satan's 2000 years in the pit initially end?
If you can't show any of that in this block of text, keep in mind, everything that precedes this block of text, satan would still have access to heaven. If you are unable to show in the block of text above, where the beginning of satan's 2000 years in the pit initially begins, and where it intially ends, that only leaves you two options.
Either you have to conclude satan is in the pit while he still had access to heaven. Or you have to admit that you can't actually prove Amil after all, because if you could, you would be able to show satan's 2000 year in the pit with the block of text above. So, where in the block of text above does it ever depict satan locked up in the pit? But if you can't do that or unwilling to do that, I will unfortunately have to take that to mean you can't actually prove Amil after all, because if you could, you would be able to show satan's 2000 year in the pit with the block of text above.
The following is only to illustrate a point.
Revelation 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
Regardless what these locusts are, would anyone think that while they are in the pit until someone opens it, that they are able to do the things they do outside of the pit while they are still locked up in the pit? I don't think any reasonable person would think that. The same has to be true of satan when he is locked up in the pit. He literally can't be roaming around the earth while locked up in the pit any more than these locusts in Revelation 9 can while they are locked inside the pit. If nothing else, Revelation 9 proves this pit is a real place, a prison of sorts for spirits, apparently.
That the Amil position is clearly defunct should be obvious, because at the end of the "thousand years", death and hell are destroyed in the lake of fire, as written. So if the thousand years were first, it would make "satan's little season...the 2nd coming," impossible to exist.
So, how do you interpret the verses in post #304, which show that satan has been bound?
Yes. And I’ve been “down the creek without a paddle” too.A figure of speech is a word or phrase used in a non-literal sense for rhetorical or vivid effect. I see that you're married. Have you ever been in "the dog house?"
I'm not seeing how that might cause a problem? Perhaps you can expand further, maybe then I will be able to see what you are meaning?
In the meantime, what I do see as a problem for Amils, the 42 month reign of the beast has to be followed by the 2nd coming. That means, in order for Amil to be the correct position, this 42 month reign of the beast has to occur during satan's little season after the thousand years. Totally impossible according to Revelation 20:4. There are clearly already those being martyred during the 42 month reign of the beast before satan is ever loosed from the pit. And since it's illogical that they are martyred by the beast during the thousand years while satan is in the pit, the only other option is, they are martyred before the thousand years even begin. Therefore placing the time of the 42 month reign of the beast prior to the beginning of the thousand years, and not after the thousand years where Amils need it to fit in order for their position to work. Premil is the only position this can work with. How non Premils cannot see that, that is beyond me?
In the meantime, what I do see as a problem for Amils, the 42 month reign of the beast has to be followed by the 2nd coming. That means, in order for Amil to be the correct position, this 42 month reign of the beast has to occur during satan's little season after the thousand years. Totally impossible according to Revelation 20:4. There are clearly already those being martyred during the 42 month reign of the beast before satan is ever loosed from the pit. And since it's illogical that they are martyred by the beast during the thousand years while satan is in the pit, the only other option is, they are martyred before the thousand years even begin. Therefore placing the time of the 42 month reign of the beast prior to the beginning of the thousand years, and not after the thousand years where Amils need it to fit in order for their position to work. Premil is the only position this can work with. How non Premils cannot see that, that is beyond me?
Not so! Death is destroyed at the second coming.
Paul shows that Christ’s return spells the termination of death and rebellion in 1 Corinthians 15:22-28, saying: “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when ‘he shall have delivered up’ the kingdom to God, even the Father; when ‘he shall have put down’ (aorist active subjunctive) all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For ‘he hath put’ all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be (hupotageé) subdued (or subordinated) unto him (speaking of the second coming), then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.”
Death is destroyed at the second coming, the time here denoted as “the end.” As Jesus comes and rescues ‘the just’ in the twinkling of an eye He also destroys ‘the unjust’. This passage is distinctly a description of the end. Those “in Adam all die.” The second coming is shown to be termination of all rebellion. It is the time “when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power." But equally, “in Christ shall all be made alive.” This is the time “when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father.” It is clear that everything is tied up at the end (“His Coming”).
The phrase “he shall have delivered up” comes from the single Greek word paradidomi meaning surrender, yield up, intrust, or transmit. This is what happens to the kingdom when Christ comes. He surrenders it to His Father, He yields it up.
The converse phrase “he shall have put down” comes from the single Greek word katargeo meaning: bring to nought, none effect, or abolish.
This is what happens to “all” existing “rule and all authority and power” when Jesus Comes. The rule of man comes to an end and now it becomes the rule of God.
The burden of proof is with you to prove this is typical Amil teaching. Give me your quotes from your authorities that taught this. I have never heard of this before, and have read over 300 books on the matter. I will not hold my breath.
Not what God's Word shows at all.
Your adherence to the Amill doctrine has blinded you from what all Paul said there...
1 Cor 15:24-25
24 Then cometh the end, when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even The Father; when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For He must reign, till He hath put all enemies under His feet.
KJV
1 Cor 15:28
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him That put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
KJV
The "end" comes "when"... Christ has put ALL ENEMIES under His feet. Not just some, but ALL His enemies, for ALL knees will bow to Him, remember? Because that "when" is a CONDITION, it means that MUST happen first, before He will deliver up the kingdom to The Father. So you cannot just slap those 1 Cor.15:23-28 verses into an Amill position when those verses don't support it. What Paul showed there is the same time events of Rev.20 about Christ's future Millennial reign over the wicked starting at His 2nd coming.
No, death is not destroyed at Christ's second coming. Rev.20 tells us about the "second death" of the casting into the "lake of fire" AFTER the "thousand years" mentioned there. We are told death and hell are cast into that "lake of fire" AFTER the "thousand years". Because the Amill position has that backwards, it reveals that position is an agenda of men, and not The Word of God.
I can see you've never understood basic control statements like IF, Then, Else. Those are conditional statements. 'When' is Paul's conditional statement, a conditional statement for when Christ puts all His enemies under His feet. That means we have to look for 'when' that is to happen. It is to happen DURING the "thousand years" that begins at His coming!
Rev 3:9
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
KJV
Jesus speaking to His elect Church of Philadelphia. That has NEVER happened yet. Nor will it happen until Jesus returns. Notice those wicked "synagogue of Satan" are NOT DESTROYED yet then. Instead, Jesus will make those come to worship Him at the feet of His elect!
So when... will His elect be in power over those of the "synagogue of Satan", when they bow at His elect's feet? At the START of Jesus' return. He promised His elect will reign with Him over the nations with "a rod of iron" (Psalms 2; Revelation 2:25-27). Even with Revelation 19:11-15 we are shown Jesus' 2nd coming to rule over the nations with that "rod of iron". That rod is not upon His Church! It is upon the rebellious, His ENEMIES, AFTER His return. That... is what the future "thousand years" of Rev.20 is for!
The Millennial Kingdom by John Walvoord in regards to Amillinnialsim:
"The present age is between the first and second comings is the fulfillment of the millennium. Its adherents are divided on whether the millennium is being fulfilled now on earth (Augustine) or whether it is being fulfilled by the saints in heaven (Kliefoth)".
From the Handbook of Evangelical Theology by Robert Lightner quoting from J.G. Vos:
"Amillennialism teaches that there will be a parallel and contemporaneous development of good and evil-God's kingdom and satan's kingdom-in this world, which will continue until the second coming."
From my experience growing up as Amil, and reading about Amil, Amil's believe the millennium to be the time between the 1st and 2nd comings, and NOT the time between the 1st advent and satan's little season.
(1) How can Satan simultaneously be in the bottomless pit and not in the bottomless pit at the same time?
(2) How can Satan simultaneously be bound and be loosed at the one time?
(3) How can Satan simultaneously deceive the Gentiles and not deceive the Gentiles at the same time?
Neither of these prove your false claim. I too believe both statements. Evil and good develop during the advent period. Who teaches what you wrongly and confusingly foist on Amil? You are trying to prove the unprovable.
It has taken you 3 days to come up with nothing.
My claim is that the Amil position believes the millennium is symbolic for the time span between the 1st and 2nd advents. I have provided 2 Amil quotes to support this.
So far you have provided no quotes that show this to be otherwise.
I'm sorry I haven't had time to respond to your posts in a quick manner, I am a healthcare worker at a hospital and things have been extremely busy with the pandemic. So my responses make take a few days.
I’m interested in your view here, I haven’t considered this before.
Do you think that Satan being bound has to do with salvation being apart from the law which occurs after the cross; and Satan being loosed has to do with people continuing to believe that salvation comes by the law? Or perhaps put another way Satan is bound for those not under the law, but loosed for those that are under the law.
The Loosing of Satan and the Final Revolt (20:7-9)
"On being relieved from his confinement, Satan loses no time in resuming his nefarious activities and plunges into his campaign to deceive the nations of the entire earth. These who are tempted are the descendants of the tribulation saints who survive the tribulation and enter the millennium in their natural bodies. B. F. Atkinson believes infants born during the millennium will live to its conclusion and will not be required to make a choice between the devil and Christ until the end.332 The children of those entering the millennium far outnumber the parents, and undoubtedly the earth is teeming with inhabitants at the conclusion of the thousand-year reign of Christ. Outwardly they have been required to conform to the rule of the king and make a profession of obedience to Christ. In many cases, however, this was mere outward conformity without inward reality, and in their inexperience of real temptation they are easy victims of Satan’s wiles.
Hoste comments:
The golden age of the kingdom will last a thousand years, during which righteousness will reign, and peace, prosperity, and the knowledge of God be universally enjoyed. But this will not entail universal conversion, and all profession must be tested… Will not a thousand years under the beneficent sway of Christ and the manifested glory of God suffice to render men immune to his [Satan’s] temptations, will they not have radically changed for the better, and become by the altered conditions of life and the absence of Satanic temptations, children of God and lovers of His will? Alas! It will be proved once more that man whatever his advantages and environment, apart from the grace of God and the new birth, remains at heart only evil and at enmity with God.333
Govett suggests four reasons why Satan must be loosed after a thousand years: (1) to demonstrate that man even under the most favorable circumstances will fall into sin if left to his own choice; (2) to demonstrate the foreknowledge of God who foretells the acts of men as well as His own acts; (3) to demonstrate the incurable wickedness of Satan; (4) to justify eternal punishment, that is, to show the unchanged character of wicked people even under divine jurisdiction for a long period of time.334
In describing the nations, the term “Gog and Magog” is used without any explanation. From the context it would seem that this is not the same event as that described in Ezekiel 38 and 39 where Gog and Magog are prominent; and the battle which follows is entirely different and separated by at least a thousand years from that of Ezekiel’s prophecy. Baines contrasts this battle with that of Ezekiel in these words:
Gog and Magog are here used in a wider sense than in Ezekiel, and their invasion differs in time and details, though agreeing in character and object, with that which he foretells. Ezekiel predicts an incursion by a great northern power called Gog, which, from certain geographical indications, is easily identified with Russia. In the Revelation, however, Gog and Magog are used to designate the nations, not merely from the north, but from all parts, “the four quarters of the earth.” Again, the invasion named by Ezekiel is at the beginning of Christ’s reign; that in the Revelation at the end. The hosts in Ezekiel, too, fall on the mountains, and their bodies are buried; whereas the forces assembled in the Revelation are devoured by fire from heaven. The judgment is instantaneous. Christ’s reign is a reign of righteousness, during which evil is not tolerated as now, but promptly crushed.335
While many explanations have been made, one of the intriguing ones is that Gog refers to the ruler and Magog to the people as in Ezekiel 38. Hence, what the passage means is that the nations of the world follow Satan, including the rulers (Gog) and the people (Magog) under the rulers. Another plausible explanation is that the expression is used much as we use the term “Waterloo” to express a disastrous battle, but one not related to the historic origination of the term. Many contrasts can be observed between this battle and that of Ezekiel in that Satan is prominent in this whereas he is not mentioned in Ezekiel 38-39. The invasion of Ezekiel comes from the north whereas this invasion comes from all directions. Ezekiel’s battle probably occurs previous to the battle of the great day of God Almighty before the millennium, whereas this occurs after the thousand years have been finished. The number of those who rebel against God and follow Satan is described as innumerable “as the sand of the sea.” Thus the last gigantic rebellion of man develops against God’s sovereign rule in which the wicked meet their Waterloo.
As the battle is joined in verse 9, the great host led by Satan and coming from all directions compasses the camp of the saints. The word for “camp” (Gr., parembole„) refers to those engaged in battle and who are in battle array, hence a “camp,” “fortress,” or “citadel.” Here the term seems to refer to the city of Jerusalem itself which is described as “the beloved city” (cf. Ps. 78:68; 87:2). Apparently Christ permits the army to assemble and encircle the capital city. No sooner has the army of Satan been assembled, however, than fire comes down from God out of heaven, and the besiegers are destroyed, like the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. Thus is shattered the last vain attempt of Satan to claim a place of prominence and worship in attempted usurpation of the prerogatives of God. Thus ends also the false theory that man under perfect environment will willingly serve the God who created and redeemed him. Even in the ideal situation of the millennial reign of Christ, innumerable hosts immediately respond to the first temptation to rebel. This is the end of the road for the nations who rebel against God as well as for the career of Satan.
The burden of proof is with you. The first principle of evidence is: "he who alleges must prove." You have not proved your point. You obviously misunderstand the Amil opposition. Maybe that is why you disagree with it.
And speaking of Revelation 12. That chapter obviously has the entire NT church era in view, IOW at least the past 2000 years, the same 2000 years Amils are claiming is meaning the thousand years in Revelation 20. Where can this 2000 year binding of satan be found in Revelation 12? I don't see a hint of it anywhere in the text. There is not a single place in all of that chapter depicting a satan that is bound and locked up in a pit.
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