A basic flaw in Partial Preterist interpretation

sovereigngrace said:

Not so. He was simply outlining an explanation he had heard. You definitely cannot in any way use his as a supporter of your position.

While I agree with your comments on "the quote of Ignatius," you actually did the same thing with your quote from Cyril of Jerusalem (Catechetical Lectures, LECTURE XV). It has absolutely nothing to do with 2 Thess 2 or the subject at hand.

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I qualified my quote from Cyril.

There are no ECFs/ECSs who both:
1. Specifically comment on 2 Thessalonians 2; and
2. Identify the restrainer in that passage as either the Holy Spirit or the Church.

sovereigngrace said:

The first resurrection relates to the Lord Jesus Christ and His victorious defeat of sin, death and Hades. The life, death, resurrection/ascension of Christ caused Satan's restraint, and spiritual curtailment from deceiving the nations, resulting in his casting out from his seat of accusation. He

Previous to Satan's eviction, God was Israel's God, not the Gentiles God. Satan ruled the nations. But through this casting out of Satan, after man's penalty had been paid in full, he no longer had anything to accuse the elect over. It was indeed finished! The powerful spread of the Gospel to the Gentiles lifting the deception that kept them bound. Satan was now bound. The boot was on the other foot. With the global expanse of the great commission the Gentiles now are without excuse. The ignorance is gone. The veil is lifted. The means by which God lifts deception is the preaching of the Word of God. This has now been successfully ongoing throughout the nations for 2000 years.

Satan's defeat came after the resurrection. Here is when he got his eviction notice, and here is "when" salvation came to the "whole world" - not just one nation Israel. The deception enveloping the Gentiles was lifted - praise God. They are now without excuse, just like those in the OT that rejected salvation. Salvation has now come to the nations. But Satan had to first be cast down. He had to be defeated. Christ’s life, death and resurrection safely secured that. As a result the Church becomes a militant overcoming organism.

Christ predicted shortly before He destroyed the power of Satan at the cross, in John 12:30-33: “Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die.”

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Where can you show that in Revelation 12, though? Before satan is cast unto the earth, he still had access to heaven. So, his thousand year binding can't fit any of that. Once he is cast out of heaven he sets out to persecute the woman who brought forth the man child, this showing he is not in the pit here either. Where else is left in Revelation 12 for his 2000 year binding to fit? How can you possibly think you have a valid argument in the meantime unless you can also prove what you assert via Revelation 12? If you can show me where a 2000 year binding of satan can fit in Revelation 12, maybe then I might at least agree you have a valid argument after all. But until then it would be silly of me to admit you have a valid argument when you can't even prove it via Revelation 12.

There are 17 verses in Revelation 12, where those 17 verses cover at least the past 2000 years, the same 2000 years Amils claim is meaning satan's time in the pit. After what verse in Revelation 12 should one insert the beginning of satan's binding? After what verse in Revelation 12 should one insert the end of satan's binding? And then explain why those are the places these things fit in Revelation 12. That's not too much to ask, is it?

sovereigngrace said:

To be honest, my litmus test is not the ECFs. It is the Word of God. I study them to ascertain their position on subjects because there is so much misinformation out there, and ascertain the development of doctrines. But some of their theology is truly weird, fanciful and heretical at times. To take them as the basis of your theology is dangerous.

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They were not infallible. But neither are we.

Their testimonies are consistent with both the Word, and with the events of what can now be confirmed in history.

It doesn't get better than that.

sovereigngrace said:

I honestly don't think hand-picking 2 quotes from 2 ECFs proves anything. You could literally cherry-pick 2 ECFs teachings on any given subject to prove any error in the church, now, or down in through history. 2 of the quotes you submitted were not even espousing what you were arguing.

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The number 2 is an infinitely greater quantity than the number 0.

They are espousing exactly what I'm arguing, as they specifically address and exegete 2 Thessalonians 2.

They're also supported by Reformation-era commentators e.g. Adam Clarke, John Gill, et al.

I know that you understand prophetic fulfillment, and much appreciate the numerous times when you've defended and explained it.

Why do you find prophetic fulfillment difficult to accept in this instance?

sovereigngrace said:

That is not true.

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Which part specifically is not true?


Dispensationalists often ask the same questions to Amil that you are asking me. As an previous Amil, I have been asked:

1.) How can satan be in the abyss now, if he is still roaming and devowering?
2.) how is satan bound, if he is still roaming and devowering?
3.) how can satan not be deceiving the nations right now, when so many do not understand the gospel?

sovereigngrace said:

That does not make rational sense.

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Scripture is clear that satan was bound by Christ's 1st advent, but also loosed upon Christ's advent. What part doesn't make rational sense?

sovereigngrace said:

(1) How can Satan simultaneously be in the bottomless pit and not in the bottomless pit at the same time?

(2) How can Satan simultaneously be bound and be loosed at the one time?

(3) How can Satan simultaneously deceive the Gentiles and not deceive the Gentiles at the same time?

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Satan was bound at Christ's ministry, death, resurrection, and ascension. I'm sure we can agree that Satan was bound by Christ's first advent, and can no longer accuse God's elect, as the righteous requirements of the law are now fulfilled in us.

Matthew 12:29 Or again, how can anyone enter a strong man’s house and steal his possessions, unless he first binds the strong man? Then he can plunder his house.

Romans 8:33 Who will bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies.

John 12:31-33 Now judgment is upon this world; now the prince of this world will be cast out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.” He said this to indicate the kind of death He was going to die.

However, scripture is also clear that Satan was loosed at Christ's ascension. This is evidenced by Christ clearly stating "the prince of this world is coming". Peter states the devil is presently prowling. Paul states the spirit of the ruler of the power of the air was presently at work in the sons of disobedience. John points to the apostacy that was occurring in the church due to the present spirit of the antichrist.

John 14:30 I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming, and he has no claim on Me.

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober-minded and alert. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.

Ephesians 2:2 n which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience.

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea; with great fury the devil has come down to you, knowing he has only a short time.”

1 John 2:18-19 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they did not belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But their departure made it clear that none of them belonged to us.

sovereigngrace said:

I did not say that Revelation 12 showed the binding of Satan. We find that in Revelation 20 and other passages in the gospels. There are different recaps in Revelation showing different aspects of the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness. They're not focused on the exact same subject every time. That is a story of Scripture. Why does it need to be in Revelation 12? It doesn't! That is just you've been pedantic.

Matthew 12:22-29, Mark 3:11, 23-27, Luke 10:18-19, Luke 11:20-22, John 12:31-33 Colossians 2:13-15, Hebrews 2:14-15, I John 3:8, Revelation 9:1-11, Revelation 12:7-9 and Revelation 20:2 prove Satan was cast out, bound, defeated, incapacitated, divested of power, disarmed, brought to naught, undone, stripped and spiritually imprisoned through Christ's sinless life, atoning death and triumphant resurrection. Colossians 2:15 tells us: “having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.” Satan has not been rendered immobile or inoperative but is limited in his power, kingship and influence by being defeated on the cross. He is like a dog on a chain. He is shackled.

Satan cannot stop the enlightenment of the Gentiles as before. The restraint simply relates to the Gospel advance to the Gentiles. They were once enveloped in darkness before the first resurrection, now a bright light has been shining for 2000 years saving countless millions throughout the nations. And there is absolutely nothing Satan can do prevent the invasion of his territory. He cannot deceive "the nations" (Gentiles) because we now have the truth as a result of the church expansion into the nations.

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I'm not saying you are saying satan's time in the pit can be found in Revelation 12. And that's actually part of the problem since Amils should be saying that if they are correct about when satan is in the pit.

You are not grasping my point. My point is, Revelation 12 covers the NT church era, the same era Amils claim satan is in the pit. After what verse in Revelation 12 should one insert the beginning of satan's binding? After what verse in Revelation 12 should one insert the end of satan's binding? Logically, how can satan's binding not be in Revelation 12 if Revelation 12 is covering the same 2000 years Amils claim satan is in the pit?

If Amils are correct about satan's time in the pit is parallelling the NT church age, yet neglecting to show this in Revelation 12, doesn't that indicate Amils are not correct to begin with? Because if they are correct, and the fact Revelation 12 clearly covers the entire NT church era, Amils should easily without much effort, show after what verse in Revelation 12 one should insert the beginning of satan's binding. And after what verse in Revelation 12 should one insert the end of satan's binding.

Let's reduce Revelation 12 to the following verses. All the verses before verse 9, satan apparently still had access to heaven. I could be wrong, but I don't think anyone would argue that he was bound in the pit while he still had access to heaven.

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


Verse 9 fits with verse 12-17, like such.

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

If satan's 2000 years in the pit fit in this age before the 2nd coming, the above is the only place in Revelation 12 it can possibly fit. Where do you propose in the block of text above that the beginning of satan's 2000 years in the pit initially begin? Where do you propose in the block of text above that the end of satan's 2000 years in the pit initially end?

If you can't show any of that in this block of text, keep in mind, everything that precedes this block of text, satan would still have access to heaven. If you are unable to show in the block of text above, where the beginning of satan's 2000 years in the pit initially begins, and where it intially ends, that only leaves you two options.

Either you have to conclude satan is in the pit while he still had access to heaven. Or you have to admit that you can't actually prove Amil after all, because if you could, you would be able to show satan's 2000 year in the pit with the block of text above. So, where in the block of text above does it ever depict satan locked up in the pit? But if you can't do that or unwilling to do that, I will unfortunately have to take that to mean you can't actually prove Amil after all, because if you could, you would be able to show satan's 2000 year in the pit with the block of text above.

The following is only to illustrate a point.

Revelation 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

Regardless what these locusts are, would anyone think that while they are in the pit until someone opens it, that they are able to do the things they do outside of the pit while they are still locked up in the pit? I don't think any reasonable person would think that. The same has to be true of satan when he is locked up in the pit. He literally can't be roaming around the earth while locked up in the pit any more than these locusts in Revelation 9 can while they are locked inside the pit. If nothing else, Revelation 9 proves this pit is a real place, a prison of sorts for spirits, apparently.

claninja said:

Can you provide non apocalyptic and symbolic scripture to support that your interpretation is correct?


Otherwise, I'll stick with Jesus' application.

Luke 23:28-30 But Jesus turned to them and said, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. Look, the days are coming when people will say, ‘Blessed are the barren women, the wombs that never bore, and breasts that never nursed.’ At that time ‘they will say to the mountains, “Fall on us!”
and to the hills, “Cover us!”’c

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It's impossible to provide you with what you ask, and I think you well know it, because that very idea in the Scripture about those seeking to hide in the holes of the rocks, and wishing for the hills and mountains to fall on them, is part of the day of Jesus' 2nd coming! And that is Apocalyptic!

But I'll give you more, though I don't think you can understand it either.

Jesus quoted to those daughters of Jerusalem while carrying His cross from Isaiah 54 about that "Blessed are the barren...". He said the day will come when they will be saying that. But to whom and about whom? To those whose wombs never gave suck, that's who. Who is that? Not those daughters of Jerusalem nor their children whom Jesus said to weep for.

That event is future, and is about His return, and then the unbelieving Jews in Jerusalem suddenly 'know' what they had done against Him. It goes with the timing of Zechariah 12 when the Jews will mourn for Jesus like a lost son. Their wanting for the hills and mountains to fall on them is a metaphor for their shame in that future time. That is why they are afraid of His wrath on that day, per the 6th Seal.

Isaiah 54 starts off about that parable of Blessed are the barren, and even Apostle Paul used it about us staying faithful so he can present us to Christ as "a chaste virgin" (2 Cor.11). It is about remaining in the Faith all the way through the coming tribulation, not being deceived by the coming pseudo-Messiah, waiting on Jesus to come instead.

The majority at Jerusalem won't wait, but will instead fall to the coming pseudo-Messiah. When Jesus comes, they will be found as spiritual harlots, not chaste virgins. And any believer on Christ that falls to that will be in the same boat with them.

DavidPT said:

What's interesting about this, 2 Thessalonians 2 connects with the 42 month reign of the beast in Revelation 13, and that all of this is fulfilled in the end of this age followed by the 2nd coming. That appears to be the position of both Premil and many of those that hold to Amil, yet both positions, though they are basically in agreement about the timing of these events, can't be the correct position, in regards to the timing of the thousand years.

Per Premil the chronology would be----2 Thessalonians 2/Revelation 13 and the 42 month reign of the beast---the 2nd coming---the thousand years---satan's little season.


Per Amil, such as SG holds, the chronology would be this---the thousand years---satan's little season/2 Thessalonians 2/Revelation 13 and the 42 month reign of the beast----the 2nd coming.

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That the Amil position is clearly defunct should be obvious, because at the end of the "thousand years", death and hell are destroyed in the lake of fire, as written. So if the thousand years were first, it would make "satan's little season...the 2nd coming," impossible to exist.

claninja said:

Scripture is clear that satan was bound by Christ's 1st advent, but also loosed upon Christ's advent. What part doesn't make rational sense?

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I’m interested in your view here, I haven’t considered this before.

Do you think that Satan being bound has to do with salvation being apart from the law which occurs after the cross; and Satan being loosed has to do with people continuing to believe that salvation comes by the law? Or perhaps put another way Satan is bound for those not under the law, but loosed for those that are under the law.

DavidPT said:

My point is, Revelation 12 covers the NT church era, the same era Amils claim satan is in the pit.

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So, how do you interpret the verses in post #304, which show that satan has been bound?

Davy said:

That the Amil position is clearly defunct should be obvious, because at the end of the "thousand years", death and hell are destroyed in the lake of fire, as written. So if the thousand years were first, it would make "satan's little season...the 2nd coming," impossible to exist.

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I'm not seeing how that might cause a problem? Perhaps you can expand further, maybe then I will be able to see what you are meaning?

In the meantime, what I do see as a problem for Amils, the 42 month reign of the beast has to be followed by the 2nd coming. That means, in order for Amil to be the correct position, this 42 month reign of the beast has to occur during satan's little season after the thousand years. Totally impossible according to Revelation 20:4. There are clearly already those being martyred during the 42 month reign of the beast before satan is ever loosed from the pit. And since it's illogical that they are martyred by the beast during the thousand years while satan is in the pit, the only other option is, they are martyred before the thousand years even begin. Therefore placing the time of the 42 month reign of the beast prior to the beginning of the thousand years, and not after the thousand years where Amils need it to fit in order for their position to work. Premil is the only position this can work with. How non Premils cannot see that, that is beyond me?

sovereigngrace said:

In the new heavens and new earth there is going to be no more grief, grave stones or goodbyes. There is coming a day in the future when dying, crying, pain, sorrow and the curse will cease. Or put differently, there is going to be no sea, no sepulchers, no sorrow, no suffering. All the awful effects of sin have finally and eternally been expunged, namely death, disease, disaster, disappointment, depression, and despair. All things are now new.

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Dream on sir. That's not at all what the scripture says.

Andrewn said:

So, how do you interpret the verses in post #304, which show that satan has been bound?

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What do those arguments serve if one can't even demonstrate in Revelation 12, after which verse does it depict satan bound in the pit, and after which verse is it depicting satan no longer bound in the pit? In Revelation 12, first satan has access to heaven. Obviously, he can't be in the pit during that time. Eventually he is cast out of heaven. Does it depict him bound in the pit once he is cast out? No. It depicts him free to roam about, the fact he is seen persecuting the woman who brought forth the man child, once he sees he has been cast unto the earth. None of that is depicting someone locked up in a pit.

In one of my latest posts in this thread, I brought up Revelation 9 in order to try and illustrate a point. That chapter has the same pit in view that satan also gets cast into. These locusts inside are obviously confined inside of this pit until the pit is opened and that they are let loose. This tells us that any occupants in the pit while the pit is locked, are not while locked up in the pit, also literally freely roaming about outside of the pit at the same time.

The same has to be true of satan when he is locked up in the pit. Therefore when he is cast unto the earth after losing his access to heaven, he can't be locked up in the pit after that if he is instead seen roaming freely about, persecuting the woman in this case. If he can do that while locked up in the pit, why can't these locusts in Revelation 9 also freely roam about outside of the pit while they are locked up in it? Only God can be in more than one place at the same time. These locusts certainly can't, and neither can satan. That means when they are locked up in the pit they can't also be roaming freely about outside of the pit at the same time. If they can do that, that means they possess some of the same qualities that only God possesses.

DavidPT said:

What do those arguments serve if one can't even demonstrate in Revelation 12, after which verse does it depict satan bound in the pit, and after which verse is it depicting satan no longer bound in the pit?

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Congratulation! You've earned a spot in the abyss by ignoring my question and the fact that I answered you about Rev 12 in a previous thread .

But you can still roam the earth. You can be in 2 places at the same time .

Andrewn said:

Congratulation! You've earned a spot in the abyss by ignoring my question and the fact that I answered you about Rev 12 in a previous thread .

But you can still roam the earth. You can be in 2 places at the same time .

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Apparently I wasn't satisfied with your answer in that other thread in question. And assuming that is the case, what then is your point? Does your unsatifactory answer mean I no longer have a right to argue against Amil via Revelation 12? Did I find your answer satisfactory at the time? Did I agree with your answer at the time? You'll have to refresh my memory since I don't recall one way or the other atm, as to how I perceived your answer at the time. So I'm thinking I likely found it unsatisfactory if I'm still arguing against Amil via Revelation 12 to this day.