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A Baptist-Presbyterian Dialogue on Baptism

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Iosias

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IMMERSION
First, in regard to immersion, let me say that, personally, I will 'Immerse If the individual desires this mode of baptism. Second, it is well to remember that the Greek Catholic Church and certain groups of Brethren have immersed babies as well as adults, and hence there is no necessary link between the mode of baptism used and the question of the baptism of infants. I have never immersed an infant, but I would not refuse to do so.

As a matter of fact, from evidence from the Catacombs before 200, it would seem probable that effusion, pouring, could have been the most common mode of baptism in the early church. That is, they stood in water and then had water poured on their head. Our position as to the mode of baptism is that immersion is not the only mode.

The words baptizo and bapto in the classical Greek are used with great latitude. Neither of these words can be said always to mean immerse. In the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Old Testament, the word "baptize" is used in such a way that it could not possibly always mean immersion. For example. in Daniel 4:23 in the Septuagint, it says that Nebuchadnezzar was baptized with dew. Certainly no one would say that he was immersed in dew.

In the New Testament use of the word, it is equally true that the word 'baptize" cannot always mean immersion. For example, in Hebrews 9:10, we read: "Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation." The King James Version uses "washings" instead of "baptizings", but the Greek says "baptizings." This passage refers to the Old Testament ceremonial cleansings, such as the red heifer, and the Day of Atonement. These Old Testament cleansings were never by immersion, but always by sprinkling. Notice how Hebrews 9 itself, verses 19 and 21, emphasize the fact that the Old Testament ceremonial cleansings were by sprinkling.
I Corinthians 10.1, 2 is another such passage: "Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; and were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea." In this case the Jews certainly were not immersed.

Mark 7:4 is also clear: "And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brazen vessels, and of tables." Again in the King James Version, the word "washings" is used, but the Greek again is "baptizing". If baptize always means immerse, it means that the Jews, each time they came from the market place, had to fill a tub with water and go under, head and all. This is impossible, for most of them had no such accommodation in their homes. Further, this passage would also say that they constantly immersed their tables. This is again obviously impossible. Many of the ancient versions add "and couches" to this passage. To say that they regularly immersed their beds, even if they did use bed rolls, is foolish.
At least three of the baptisms mentioned in the New Testament are difficult to imagine as immersion. The eunuch was baptized by a desert road. The jailer was baptized in the middle of the night. Three thousand were baptized on the Day of Pentecost. It is easy to see how these took place if sprinkling or pouring were used, it is difficult if immersion is taken as the only mode.

From: http://www.fivesolas.com/fs_bapt.htm
 

mlqurgw

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Iosias

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Thank you for this :) However for most Presbyterians the mode of baptism is not an issue, I myself accept immersion, pouring and sprinkling as legitimate modes of baptism. What I wish to focus on here is this:

WHAT IS THE BAPTIST CASE TO EXCLUDE INFANTS FROM RECEIVING THE SACRAMENT?
 
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mlqurgw

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Thank you for this :) However for most Presbyterians the mode of baptism is not an issue, I myself accept immersion, pouring and sprinkling as legitimate modes of baptism. What I wish to focus on here is this:

WHAT IS THE BAPTIST CASE TO EXCLUDE INFANTS FROM RECEIVING THE SACRAMENT?
Gill wrote quite a bit on that very subject also. The link I gave should take you to all his writings on the subject. You may find it easier to just go the the main page and then to Sermons and Tracts, scroll down to his tracts on Baptism.

Personally I think the main difference is in the issue of Baptism being a sign of the Covenant. I disagree with it replacing circumcision. To me they signify two completely different things. It seems to me that the passage most Pedo-baptists use is Col. 2: 11 and 12. I just don't find the proof of baptism being the same as circumcision there.
 
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AndOne

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I am in the middle on this issue. Two years ago through some in-depth study I was convinced that PadeoBaptism (PB) was a correct practice. I am not so certain any more. My current stand is that though I personally would not baptise my children as infants - I really have no problem with a brother/sister who would do so. There are good arguments for both sides of the issue - and I personally don't think it is something we should divide over. Shame on the Baptist churches who preclude believers from membership because they hold a conviction toward PB.

Now, in regards to this quote from the posted link to Schaffer's defense of Padeo-Baptism:

In the light of the teaching of the whole Bible, for w not to baptize babies there would have to be a clear command in Scripture not to do so. Instead of that, the emphasis is all the other way. Of the seven cases of water baptism mentioned in the New Testament, three were of families. Someone may say, "But it does not say that them were infants involved." I would point out to you that in the light of the natural expectancy of the saved Jew, if babies were not baptized, the Scripture would have made it clear that such was the case. God deals with families in the 0. T. and in the N. T. too. The promise made to the Philippian jailer, Acts 16:31b, "And thou shalt be saved, and thy house," adequately shows this. No matter what interpretation we, individually, may hold concerning this passage, certainly God here does show that He deals with families not only in the Old Testament but in the New Testament as well.

It is a good point that he brings up but Francis forgets this statement from Jesus:

Matthew 10:34-35 said:
"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn
" 'a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her motherinlaw—
36a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.

In light of this passage the PB needs to clarify what they mean when they make statements that God deals with entire families.
 
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Pepperoni

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WHAT IS THE BAPTIST CASE TO EXCLUDE INFANTS FROM RECEIVING THE SACRAMENT?
From my viewpoint, this is because there is not one case of infants being baptized in the Bible. In every reference to baptism, those being baptized were believers. Obviously, infants are not able to be believers.
 
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Logos1560

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What is the Baptist case to exclude infants from receiving the sacrament?

Since you started the dialogue, why don't you first present the Presbyterian case concerning where the New Testament requires or demands that infants should be baptized?
 
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Iosias

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Since you started the dialogue, why don't you first present the Presbyterian case concerning where the New Testament requires or demands that infants should be baptized?

Why Baptise Infants?
“And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.”
– Genesis 17:7

There will be times I am sure that we shall be asked by someone why as Christians we should or do baptise infants. How should we respond? It is my conviction that we ought to found our position squarely upon the eternal covenant of God.

The covenant of God
It is a glorious truth indeed that our God is a covenant God. In Genesis 17:7 God declares of himself “I will establish my covenant”. This gracious covenant that God establishes is founded in eternity and is realised within history and is wholly unconditional. It “was made with Christ as the second Adam, and in him with all the elect as his seed.”[1]This covenant, the covenant of God, is a relation of the most intimate communion of friendship between the triune God and his chosen people in Christ Jesus. It is this covenant, this relation of friendship, that God establishes and he does so with believers and their children. Hence God says in Genesis 17:7 that “I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee”.

This gracious covenant is realised in history within the line of continued generations. This is found in Genesis 17:7 in the phrase “I will establish my covenant between me and…thy seed after thee in their generations”. So as we look back into the Old Testament we find the line of God’s covenant running from Adam to Christ in an unbroken line through Seth, Noah, Shem, Abraham, Israel, Judah and David.[2] Just read Genesis chapters 5, 10 and 11, Matthew chapter 1 and Luke chapter 3 to obtain a greater appreciation of this truth.

From the Old Testament we find that God has established his covenant with believers and their seed or, as Dutch Reformed theologian Herman Hoeksema puts it, ‘in the line of continued generations’ and that infants are included in the covenant of God. This is continued in the New Testament hence Peter declares in Acts 2:38, 39 “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.” I would then urge all to see “the truth of the historical-organic development of God’s covenant on earth in the line of generations.”[3] Indeed the Puritans were fond of pointing out that “God casts the line of election in the loins of godly parents.”[4]

The covenant sign
Whilst God has established his covenant he has also instituted a sign and seal of this covenant so that those with whom the covenant is established are marked out as being in a covenant relation with God. Not only that these signs of the covenant have two parts. The first is an “outward and sensible sign” and the second is “an inward and spiritual grace” signified thereby. Under the old dispensation the sign and seal of the covenant was circumcision so when God established his covenant with Abraham and his seed God said that “…Every man child among you shall be circumcised. And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you” (Genesis 17: 10, 11). The sign of circumcision, we are taught in Romans 4:11, was a “seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised” i.e. that God justifies the believers by faith. If we look throughout the Scriptures we find that circumcision signified much more that just this. It symbolised regeneration and confession of sin (Leviticus 26:40, 41), sanctification or the putting off of the old man (Jeremiah 4:4). In Deuteronomy 30:6 it signified the working of God in the heart filling it with the love of God. Finally circumcision was a sign of God’s covenant to be the God of believers and their seed as is taught in Genesis 17:7-14 saying that it “shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you”. The covenant sign of circumcision signified a spiritual grace.

However Christ has taken away all bloody ordinances and the rite of circumcision has been fulfilled in baptism and so now under the new dispensation baptism has replaced circumcision as the covenantal sign and seal. Titus 3:5 and 1 Peter 3:21 teach that baptism signifies regeneration and cleansing. Romans 6:4 teach that it symbolises sanctification and Galatians 3:27-29 teaches us that baptism signifies our being in the covenant of God as circumcision once did. Further Colossians 2:11-13 offers clear proof that circumcision and baptism are essentially the same in meaning.

This teaching is taught in both the Belgic Confession of 1561 and the Heidelberg Catechism of 1563. The Belgic Confession states that

We believe and confess that Jesus Christ, who is the end of the law, has by His shed blood put an end to every other shedding of blood that one could or would make as an expiation or satisfaction for sins. He has abolished circumcision, which involved blood, and has instituted in its place the sacrament of baptism. By baptism we are received into the Church of God and set apart from all other peoples and false religions, to be entirely committed to Him whose mark and emblem we bear. This serves as a testimony to us that He will be our God and gracious Father for ever…[and] Because baptism has the same meaning for our children as circumcision had for the people of Israel, Paul calls baptism the circumcision of Christ.[5]

The Heidelberg Catechism asks “Should infants, too, be baptized?” replying thus:

Yes. Infants as well as adults belong to God's covenant and congregation…Therefore, by baptism, as sign of the covenant, they must be grafted into the Christian church and distinguished from the children of unbelievers. This was done in the old covenant by circumcision, in place of which baptism was instituted in the new covenant.[6]

Here we find it taught explicitly that “baptism has the same meaning for our children as circumcision had for the people of Israel” and so we can say safely conclude that the sign and seal of the covenant has changed from circumcision to baptism.


A covenant people and a covenant sign
That God has established a covenant has been shown above as has his institution of a sign of that covenant. God has also commanded that those with whom he has established his covenant are marked with the covenant sign. This can be seen in Genesis 17:7-11 “I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee… Every man child among you shall be circumcised. And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.” Because God establishes his covenant with believers and their seed so believers and their seed ought be marked out by the covenant sign. Therefore the argument that we maintain is that infants ought to be baptised because they are included in the covenant of God and baptism being the sign of the covenant it should be administered to infants. Therein we join with the Second Helvetic Confession (1566) in asking that if infants are included in God’s covenant “Why, then, should the sign of God’s covenant not be given to them?”[7]

A final word
I began by asking how we should respond to someone asking why we should baptise infants. My answer is that we show them that because infants are included in the covenant and because baptism is the sign of the covenant it should therefore be administered to infants. We baptise infants because it is the will of God that infants be baptised!

[1] Westminster Larger Catechism, Question 31.

[2] Hoeksema, H. (1997) Believers and their Seed, RFPA, pages 85-99

[3] Hoeksema, H. (1997) Believers and their Seed, RFPA, pp. 58

[4] Engelsma, D. (2005) The Covenant of God and the Children of Believers, RFPA, pp. 20

[5] Belgic Confession, Article 34.

[6] Heidelberg Catechism, Question 74.

[7] Second Helvetic Confession, Chapter 20.
 
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Logos1560

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Why Baptise Infants?
A final word
I began by asking how we should respond to someone asking why we should baptise infants. My answer is that we show them that because infants are included in the covenant and because baptism is the sign of the covenant it should therefore be administered to infants. We baptise infants because it is the will of God that infants be baptised!

Where do the Scriptures directly and clearly state that it is the will of God that infants be baptised? Where are the instructions in the Scriptures concerning infant baptism for parents and churches? In the New Testaments, parents are not required or commanded to have their infant children baptized. There are no regulations concerning whether only the infant children of believers are to be baptized or whether all infant children are to be baptized or what to do in the case where only one parent is a believer or what to do in the case of infants who are orphans. Is the claimed right or duty for infant baptism lodged in the infants or in the parents? Claimed inferences are not a very strong case for stating that "it is the will of God that infants be baptised."

Instead of being commanded in the New Testament, infant baptism seems to conflict with some teachings of Scripture. According to the Great Commission, the subjects of baptism must first be taught or made disciples before they can be baptized. The person to be baptized is to first have faith before baptism.

The purpose or design of circumcision seems to be different from the purpose for baptism. Circumcision was adminstered to Ishmael as well as to Isaac and to the sons of Keturah, both believing and unbelieving. Circumcision was adminstered only to males.
 
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Logos1560

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Why Baptise Infants?

However Christ has taken away all bloody ordinances and the rite of circumcision has been fulfilled in baptism and so now under the new dispensation baptism has replaced circumcision as the covenantal sign and seal.

Does the New Testament actually teach or say that baptism is the seal?

In his book entitled BAPTISM: ITS MODE AND SUBJECTS, Alexander Carson after citing Ephesians 4:30 and Ephesians 1:13 wrote: "The seal, then, that comes in the room of circumcision, is the seal of the Spirit" (p. 235). Carson wrote: "When the Holy Spirit himself, in the heart of the believer, is the seal of God's truth, there is no need of any other seal" (p. 235).
 
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Logos1560

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XXXIX of the 1644 London Confession:

"That Baptism is an ordinance of the New Testament, given by Christ, to be dispensed only upon persons professing faith, or that are disciples, or taught, who upon a profession of faith, ought to be baptized."


1833 New Hampshire Confession

"[We believe] That Christian baptism is the immersion of a believer in water, in the name of the Father [and] Son, and Spirit, to show forth in a solemn and beautiful emblem, our faith in a crucified, buried, and risen Saviour, with its purifying powr; that it is prerequisite to the privileges of a church relation; and to the Lord's Supper, in which the members of the church, by the [sacred] use of bread and wine, are to commemorate together the dying love of Christ; preceded always by solemn self-examination."

1963 Statement of Faith of Southern Baptist Convention

VII. Baptism and the Lord's Supper
"Christian baptism is the immersion of a believer in water in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. It is an act of obedience symbolizing the believer's faith in a crucified, buried, and risen Saviour, the believer's death to sin, the burial of the old life, and the resurrection to walk in newness of life in Christ Jesus. It is a testimony to his faith in the final resurrection of the dead. Being a church ordinance, it is prerequisite to the privileges of church membership and to the Lord's Supper."
 
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