911 Towers Were Exploded Outwards, Not Collapsed

[Trogdor the Burninator]

By the way, this is a nice little video from National Geographic about the demolitions hypothesis...with both sides being presented as well. You get to see Richard Gage, head of 'AE911Truth', an architect...try to tell demolition experts how a demolition must have happened.

Notice how often he appeals to, 'but this wasn't a standard demolition, this was very special'...the definition of special pleading, to get around the contradictions his theory requires (forceful explosions with no sound, and properties of 'nanothermite' that it does not have).

Even some truthers who examine Gage's claims reckon they're rubbish

And then there's his credentials as posted on the AE911 website - again it sounds like a giant appeal to authority to me

“Gage has been a practicing Architect for 20 years and has worked on most types of building construction including numerous fire-proofed steel-framed buildings. He is employed with a San Francisco Bay Area architecture firm and has most recently performed Construction Administration services for a new $120M High School campus including a $10M steel-framed Gymnasium. Currently he is working on the Design Development for a very large mixed use urban project with 1.2M sq.ft. of retail and 320K sq.ft. of high-rise office space — altogether about 1,200 tons of steel framing.”

Notice the constant references to "steel framing" and "fire proofing" in an effort to appear expert on high-rise steel frame buildings like the WTC.

Pity someone found his actual resume on the web then.....

ae911truth - 911guide

BTW - Architects design spaces, engineers certify structures. If this guy thinks he's a structural expert, ask him to come and certify your house and put his signature to it.

 

[RealDealNeverstop]

These 9/11 conspiracy theories are an utter insult to the people who died that day and their families. I don't know if the OP is from America but you obviously don't know much about 9/11. I'm not smart enough to try to debunk paranoid conspiracy theories with no basis in reality point by point, I hope that somebody on this board does. But you posting this is a major insult to those families, America, and to me as a person.

It was the families who started the truth movement.

 

[ManFromUncle]

Which has been re-created on simulator by people with less flight experience than Hani Hanjour. It was a turn-and-descent, and only makes sense in light of the fact that the hijackers were using GPS equipment (having turned off the transponders) to find their target, and Flight 77 came into the Pentagon too high...therefore, they circled around and descended in order to hit it.

What's your story? The remote-control pilot threw in a turn-and-descent to 'make it look like Hani Hanjour overshot the target'? Every time you disagree with what happened, you are forced to speculate on much more absurd explanations. We're now up to remote-controlled aircraft, a command bunker in WTC7, thermite + shape charge demolitions with no sound, and...what next?

Btodd

Thank you for finally addressing Hani Hanjour's Blue Angels flying job, even though as usual you turn the truth inside-out then call other people dishonest. Is the below video the simulator recreation you are referring to showing other less-experienced pilots have done it? The flight instructor is Rob Balsamo, who is founder of Pilots for 911 Truth, an organization of hundreds of commercial and military pilots who say there is no way Hani did that flying, and didn't understand his instruments. Just a small sampling of their credentials are here:

Robert Balsamo
4000TT Commercial, Instrument, Multi, CFI II MEI
Corporate Chief Pilot

Captain Russ Wittenberg (ret)
30,000+ Total Flight Time
707, 727, 737, 747, 757, 767, 777, DC-8, L-1049, Learjet 24/25, L-188
Ground Instructor, Advanced Ground Instructor, Instrument Instructor, Flight Engineer Turbojet
Aircraft Dispatcher
Pan Am, United
United States Air Force (ret)
Over 100 Combat Missions Flown

Commander Ralph “Rotten” Kolstad
23,000 hours
27 years in the airlines
B757/767 for 13 years mostly international Captain with American Airlines.
20 years US Navy flying fighters off aircraft carriers, TopGun twice

Guy S. Razer, LtCol, USAF (Ret)
3,500+ Hours Total Flight Time
F-15E/C, F-111A/D/E/F/EF, F-16, F-18, B-1, Mig-29, SU-22, T-37/38, Various Cvilian Prop
Combat Time: Operation Northern Watch
USAF Fighter Weapons School Instructor

A fuller list of Pilots for 911 Truth and their credentials is HERE, I welcome the serious readers here to examine and evaluate these qualifications.

But first a little about Hani Hanjour.

From HistoryCommons:

October 1996-December 1997: Hani Hanjour Twice Attends Scottsdale Flight School

In late 1996, hijacker Hani Hanjour attends CRM Airline Training Center in Scottsdale, Arizona for three months. This is normally adequate time to earn a private pilot’s certificate, but Hanjour fails to accomplish this. [Los Angeles Times, 9/27/2001] Duncan Hastie, the school’s owner, finds Hanjour a “weak student” who is “wasting our resources.” According to Hastie, “He was not able to fly solo in a small plane, which is equivalent to getting out of a parking space [in a car] and stopping.”

1998: Hani Hanjour Attends Two More Arizona Flight Schools

Hanjour supposedly receives his commercial pilot rating while there. [US Congress, 9/26/2002] Later in 1998, Hanjour joins the simulator club at Sawyer School of Aviation in Phoenix. According to the Washington Post, Sawyer is “known locally as a flight school of last resort.” Wes Fults, the manager of the flight simulator, says Hanjour has “only the barest understanding what the instruments were there to do.”

April 15, 1999: Hanjour Gets Pilot’s License despite Dubious Skills

At the next flight school Hanjour will attend in early 2001, the staff will be so appalled at his lack of skills that they will repeatedly contact the FAA and ask them to investigate how he got a pilot’s license (see January-February 2001).

Pilots for 911 Truth with thousands of hours flying commercial as well as combat in every plane imaginable say the following:

The last known altitude reported for AA77 was 7000 feet. And travelled 33 miles in 5 minutes. Thats 6.6 miles per minute or 396 knots. Then the aircraft began a 330 degree spiraling dive, leveling at 2200 feet to accelerate to the Pentagon while continuing descent. He started the maneuver at 7000 feet, 396 knots, dove almost 5000 feet within a 330 degree turn and covered 5 miles in about 3 minutes. According to the 9/11 Commission Report, the final impact speed was 530 mph.

So lets take an avg speed throughout the dive of 430 knots (7 miles/min). We know a standard rate turn is 2 mins for 360 degrees. So lets say he completed the turn in just under 2 minutes. Since we don't know bank angles or speed. That means he was descending at better than 2500 fpm dropping almost 5000 feet only gaining 30 knots. No problem for guys like you and me, but for Hani?

Once this maneuver was completed, without going into a graveyard spiral, he started to pull out of the descent at 2200 feet and accelerated only 30 knots more at full power to 460 knots in a descent from 2200 feet to the pentagon in about a minute (Whats Vmo at sea level for a 757? Flap speed? Since it looks like he may have found the flap handle only accelerating 60 knots from 7000 feet, the from 2200 feet at full power). AA77 crossed the highways, knocking down light poles, entered ground effect, didn't touch the lawn and got a 44 foot high target (Tail height of 757) into a 77 foot target completely, without overshooting or bouncing off the lawn, or spreading any wreckage at 460 knots. With a 33 foot margin for error. Wow, impressive. Takes a real steady hand to pull that off. I know it would take me a few tries to get it so precise, especially entering ground effect at those speeds. Any slight movement will put you off 50 feet very quickly. I'm sure we all would agree.

So, who pulled off this stunt?

Hani Hanjour....Two seperate CFI's took Hani up to check him out. Baxter and Conner found that Hani had trouble controlling and landing a 172 at 65 knots. Bernard, the Chief CFI, refused to rent him the 172. I have instructed many years. I have soloed students in 172's when i had 300 hours as a CFI. How anyone could not control a 172 at 600TT and a Commercial is beyond me. Flight Schools keep going till you "get it" if you are a bit rusty, and then rent you the plane. They are in business to make money after all. .right? The Chief CFI basically refused any further lessons and basically told him to get lost.

I think these pilots know what you do and perhaps a bit more. On the dubiousness of the official conspiracy theory regarding Hani alone there should be a new investigation.

Simulator re-creation, Rob Balsamo invited by Gov. Jesse Ventura to demonstrate:
YouTube - ‪Simulator Recreation Demonstrates Pentagon Attack Impossibility‬‏

Remember folks, if you are poor, it is because of 911. The 911 Wars have cost every family at the very least $50,000. That is your children's education or your mortgage pay-off. It has cost us our rights. But it has made some people very, very rich. It has also fulfilled certain foreign policy agendas not in America's best interests: Project for a New American Century, Bush mafiosi Richard Perle's and Douglas Feith.

Join the 1500 licensed Architects and Engineers for 911 Truth in their 2011 Justice Campaign. Initiation of a prosecution requires only sufficient evidence of wrongdoing, not a complete theory of the crime.

It bears repeating: one honest and patriotic county DA could re-open the whole case, by indicting Giuliani for felony destruction of evidence. The part of the law which allows him/her to do this is called the "effects doctrine." This allows a prosecutor in one jurisdiction to file charges for a crime which happened in another jurisdiction, if that crime harmed someone in his own jurisdiction. Basically it's used if say, I hold up a liquor store in Texas and shoot a tourist from Oklahoma, the DA in Oklahoma can extradite me. Almost every state and every county has its soldiers who have been killed in Iraq, which Bush linked directly to 911 ("they brought war to our shores, and war is what they got" referring to Iraq, not Afghanistan.)

Therefore if it was based on the big lie of 911, any prosecutor can go after Rudy for destruction of the evidence which would have answered all the questions. Also the 3,000 tower victims probably have relatives in every state in the union.

This 9/11 in 2011 is planned to be the biggest yet, there will be actions in your area. Here is what happened in L.A. just last year:

YouTube - ‪9-11 Truth makes HUGE appearance at Los Angeles Anti-War March‬‏

They need volunteers, and have a to-do list for citizens here. Put Rudy Giuliani on the stand, let him cut a deal, and say "Now Rudy, you are looking at 15 years for felony destruction of evidence in a capital crime. We know you were only low-level. Who ordered you to ship the steel to China to be melted?"

It is also very important to write to your congressman and demand he open a hearing for former Assistant Deputy Secretary of State Dr. Steve Pieczenik to testify, and to hound him at public meetings on 911 Truth. That is the only way these critters do anything, or resign like they should and make way for someone who will.

CONTACT CONGRESS

Christians will be a critical part of the Truth Movment, and you can now join Christians for 911 Truth here. The good Dr. David Ray Griffin, distinguished theologian who has been attacked in these pages as "just a liar" has given us a guide with "The Christian Faith and the Truth behind 9/11." (Free study guide for individual or group use here.)


SUSPECTS: WhoDidIt.org

911 Survivor Families Call for Justice, TV Ad NOW running in NYC
YouTube - ‪Help Put This Ad On Air - Go to BuildingWhat.org‬‏

​

MEMBER, PATRIOTS QUESTION 911: Col. George Nelson, MBA, U.S. Air Force (ret) – Former U.S. Air Force aircraft accident investigator and airplane parts authority. Graduate, U.S. Air Force War College. 34-year Air Force career. Licensed commercial pilot. Licensed airframe and powerplant mechanic:

"In all my years of direct and indirect participation, I never witnessed nor even heard of an aircraft loss, where the wreckage was accessible, that prevented investigators from finding enough hard evidence to positively identify the make, model, and specific registration number of the aircraft -- and in most cases the precise cause of the accident."

-----------------------------------------------

"If the American people ever find out what we have done, they will chase us down the streets and lynch us." - George HW Bush Sr. to White House correspondent Sarah McClendon

Main website:
911: Shock and Awe Master Deed. Prosecute Giuliani.

"War is a Racket," Major General Smedley D. Butler, double Medal of Honor

 

[Btodd]

Before I move on to the Hani Hanjour stuff, I want to return to the previous attempt made at posting the dishonest 'thermite' video, and ManFromUncle still trying to claim it shows how thermite is used in demolitions, which according to him, is 'old hat'.

As I said, it's taken from a real video about REAL demolitions, using shape charges, and it's a documentary called 'Dynamite Dynasty' that aired on National Geographic. Truthers took that video, snipped a piece out of it where the demolitions guy was showing how shape charges are used (as you see in the video), and the only way thermite even comes up is simply because the voice-over says 'WAS thermite used with shape charges?'.

That's it, in a nutshell. We have Truthers who have no qualms about being completely dishonest with someone else's video, in the endless attempt to create conspiracies out of thin-air.

Since you moved on to Hani Hanjour now, ManFromUncle, I want to make sure you realize that continuing to post that video is straight-up dishonesty, starting with the initial claim about the beams (the ones cut during cleanup), and finishing with the voice-over trying to call a shape charge a 'thermite shape charge'.

You're entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts. After all that bluster about thermite demolitions, and 'explosions 5 times the force of demolitions'...that's the best you could do. If anyone else wants to see what a real demolitions company had to say about the collapse of the towers, and demolish (pun intended) Truther claims about it, this is a good paper to read:

http://www.implosionworld.com/Article-WTC STUDY 8-06 w clarif as of 9-8-06 .pdf


Btodd

 

[Btodd]

Ok, time to move on to the PilotsFor9/11Truth stuff and the Pentagon. This is going to be really interesting to see, considering ManFromUncle has already thrown in with the 'remote controlled aircraft' bit.

Rob Balsamo has concluded, with incorrect physics calculations (he's a former pilot, not a physicist), that not only was it 'impossible' for Hani Hanjour to have flown Flight 77 into the Pentagon, but that...wait for it...NO PLANE CRASHED THERE AT ALL.

The ball is in your court sir, start dribbling. Let's see how you weave this little fantasy together without contradicting yourself all over the place.


Btodd

 

[Trogdor the Burninator]

He started the maneuver at 7000 feet, 396 knots, dove almost 5000 feet within a 330 degree turn and covered 5 miles in about 3 minutes.
.....
[snip]
That means he was descending at better than 2500 fpm dropping almost 5000 feet only gaining 30 knots. No problem for guys like you and me, but for Hani?

Wait - what?

Almost 5000 ft. OK - lets say it was actually 5000 and give them the benefit of the doubt. He covered that in "around 3 minutes"

Now when I did math, 5000/3 = 1,666. So he was descending at 1,666 fpm, not 2500. Aparently that's different to Pilots for 911 Truth math.

Wow, that sounds a lot right? Well it's not actually. I'll go to the airline nerds for this one - for a 757.

Descent Information: To calculate Top Of Descent point (the point at which you need to begin your descent to reach the desired altitude at the desired time): Use 8 miles per minute (at Mach .70 in descent) as the basis.
If you are cruising at 33,000 ft. and wish to descend to 5,000 ft. at the next waypoint, at a descent rate of 1,800 ft./min., you need to figure the time to descend 28,000 ft. (33,000 - 5,000). Divide 28,000 ft. by 1,800 ft./min. and you will get 15.56 minutes.

So in other words the descent rate was BELOW THAT TYPICAL for that aircraft. I'll see if I can find an actual pilots manual for a better source.

Either way - no need for a Blue Angels Tally Ho Bullseye wamprats in my T-16 spiral immelman dive for this one.

 

[Btodd]

Yeah, but you're just a Disinfo Agent, Trogdor. Math is also disinfo.


Btodd

 

[Trogdor the Burninator]

Update - here's a better reference with a 757 noted as decending at 4000 fpm! Unpossible!

According to the crew's written and oral statements, the first officer was the flying pilot. The airplane had been cleared to descend to FL270 and was descending at a rate of about 4,000 feet per minute in instrument meteorological conditions. Albuquerque center issued a traffic advisory for opposite direction traffic at 12 o'clock and passing 1,000 feet below.

Event Details



More updatey - it appears that 911 turth pilots don't turn their planes either - maybe they only drive NASCAR

He started the maneuver at 7000 feet, 396 knots, dove almost 5000 feet within a 330 degree turn and covered 5 miles in about 3 minutes

330 degrees in 3 minutes - or 110 deg per minute - WOW

Umm - maybe not so wow

Turns out a standardised turn rates used for most aircraft (to keep things easier for controllers among other things - is 360deg in 2 minutes, or 180 deg per minute.

Turns out Hanjour was just boring...

 

[RealDealNeverstop]

Btodd, where is the link that people with less experience than Hanjour successfully simulated flight 77? (Since he had never flown a 757....how exactly do you find someone with less experience?)

How do you know Hanjour used a gps?

More importantly, what in the world does turning off the transponder have to do with navigation? A xponder does absolutely nothing in navigating a plane. All it does is send an ident sig to avoid mid-air collisions.

 

[RealDealNeverstop]

Update - here's a better reference with a 757 noted as decending at 4000 fpm! Unpossible!

Event Details



More updatey - it appears that 911 turth pilots don't turn their planes either - maybe they only drive NASCAR



330 degrees in 3 minutes - or 110 deg per minute - WOW

Umm - maybe not so wow

Turns out a standardised turn rates used for most aircraft (to keep things easier for controllers among other things - is 360deg in 2 minutes, or 180 deg per minute.

Turns out Hanjour was just boring...

Hate to burst your 757 bubble but ummm....take a look at the altitude of the Event you linked. In case you are unaware, which is obviously the case, descent rates increase with altitude so a plane that is five miles above the earth can descend faster than a plane that is only a mile above the earth.

 

[RealDealNeverstop]

Wait - what?

Almost 5000 ft. OK - lets say it was actually 5000 and give them the benefit of the doubt. He covered that in "around 3 minutes"

Now when I did math, 5000/3 = 1,666. So he was descending at 1,666 fpm, not 2500. Aparently that's different to Pilots for 911 Truth math.

Wow, that sounds a lot right? Well it's not actually. I'll go to the airline nerds for this one - for a 757.

So in other words the descent rate was BELOW THAT TYPICAL for that aircraft. I'll see if I can find an actual pilots manual for a better source.

Either way - no need for a Blue Angels Tally Ho Bullseye wamprats in my T-16 spiral immelman dive for this one.

You came up with the 1,666 fpm descent rate because you don't know how to do the calculations. Read the info again try not to confuse total distance traveled for descent rate.

 

[Btodd]

Btodd, where is the link that people with less experience than Hanjour successfully simulated flight 77? (Since he had never flown a 757....how exactly do you find someone with less experience?)

I think I said 'less flight experience', not 'less flight experience on a Boeing 757'.

The simulation experiment starts at about 4:40 of the video.

YouTube - ‪Pentagon Attack Analysis Zembla Video‬‏

How do you know Hanjour used a gps?

I don't 'know' it, but Jarrah purchased GPS equipment, and inquired about purchasing more.

Here's the link to the 9/11 myths page, scroll down to 22nd August 2001 on the timeline for this:

"Jarrah buys a Garmin GPS III Pilot/Americas from Oshkosh Pilot Shop, 5249 NW 36 Street, Miami, Fl. (The balance is paid with a credit card five days later)."

Ziad Jarrah Timeline: Official - 911myths


And here's the scan of the receipt, which was introduced in the Moussaui trial:

Image:Jarrah Garmin GPS.jpg - 911myths


From the 9/11 Commission Report, we also have this:

"On August 22, moreover, Jarrah attempted to purchase four GPS units from a pilot shop in Miami. He was able to buy only one unit, which he picked up a few days later when he also purchased three aeronautical charts."

I don't think it's any stretch of the imagination that Hanjour was using a GPS, and this makes perfect sense of the turn-and-descent that happened prior to the crash.

More importantly, what in the world does turning off the transponder have to do with navigation? A xponder does absolutely nothing in navigating a plane. All it does is send an ident sig to avoid mid-air collisions.

You're correct; that point was irrelevant to him finding the Pentagon.


Btodd

 

[Skaloop]

You came up with the 1,666 fpm descent rate because you don't know how to do the calculations. Read the info again try not to confuse total distance traveled for descent rate.

How would you do the calculations? The statement he replied to was essentially saying that the plane dropped 5000 feet in 3 minutes, so I'm not seeing the problem.

 

[Trogdor the Burninator]

Hate to burst your 757 bubble but ummm....take a look at the altitude of the Event you linked. In case you are unaware, which is obviously the case, descent rates increase with altitude so a plane that is five miles above the earth can descend faster than a plane that is only a mile above the earth.

Do you have a reference for the maximum recommended rate of descent for a Boeing 757 at the altitude he specified then?

 

[RealDealNeverstop]

I think I said 'less flight experience', not 'less flight experience on a Boeing 757'.

The simulation experiment starts at about 4:40 of the video.

Well, you don't know your own link. Let's put aside the fact it's a french version of loosechange and look at the fact the person had MORE experience than hanjour and actually PRACTICED the flight path simulation. If you or I had practiced enough we could do it too!

I don't 'know' it, but Jarrah purchased GPS equipment, and inquired about purchasing more.

Here's the link to the 9/11 myths page, scroll down to 22nd August 2001 on the timeline for this:

"Jarrah buys a Garmin GPS III Pilot/Americas from Oshkosh Pilot Shop, 5249 NW 36 Street, Miami, Fl. (The balance is paid with a credit card five days later)."

Ziad Jarrah Timeline: Official - 911myths


And here's the scan of the receipt, which was introduced in the Moussaui trial:

Image:Jarrah Garmin GPS.jpg - 911myths


From the 9/11 Commission Report, we also have this:

"On August 22, moreover, Jarrah attempted to purchase four GPS units from a pilot shop in Miami. He was able to buy only one unit, which he picked up a few days later when he also purchased three aeronautical charts."

I don't think it's any stretch of the imagination that Hanjour was using a GPS, and this makes perfect sense of the turn-and-descent that happened prior to the crash.




You're correct; that point was irrelevant to him finding the Pentagon.


Btodd

I don't read garbage sites like 9/11myths, prisonplanet, etc.

So obviously you have no idea if hanjour had a gps. More importantly, after years of planning, why would he need a gps? You want us to believe he was proficient enough to fly a 757 (the first and only time in his life) into the first floor of the pentagon but incompetent to navigate without a gps when far more accurate equipment was ya know.....already on the plane. Looks like you are trying too hard to justify the OCT and I love how your camp can use conjecture carte blanche while dissenters must present enough facts to plug the Potomac. The fact you thought the xponder somehow played a role in navigation proved you don't know the issue very well.

 

[RealDealNeverstop]

How would you do the calculations? The statement he replied to was essentially saying that the plane dropped 5000 feet in 3 minutes, so I'm not seeing the problem.

No. It said the plane flew 5 miles in three minutes.

 

[RealDealNeverstop]

Do you have a reference for the maximum recommended rate of descent for a Boeing 757 at the altitude he specified then?

I had it at one time but am too lazy to look it up again. The pilots did not say it was impossible to do. What they were pointing out is the feasibility someone like hanjour could have done it.

 

[Skaloop]

No. It said the plane flew 5 miles in three minutes.

It said "He started the maneuver at 7000 feet, 396 knots, dove almost 5000 feet within a 330 degree turn and covered 5 miles in about 3 minutes." Now, it is slightly ambiguous, sure, but as it's written it reads that the descent of 5000 feet, the 330 degree turn, and the travel of 5 miles occurred at the same time as part of "the maneuver."

If it was actually 2 minutes for the descent and 3 minutes for the travel, fine, then it's 2500 FPM. Sounds impressive. But what is that number relative to the normal operation of a 757?

 

[Btodd]

Well, you don't know your own link. Let's put aside the fact it's a french version of loosechang

No, it isn't. There are parts of Loose Change shown to the Frenchmen, but the link is not a 'french version of Loose Change'.

and look at the fact the person had MORE experience than hanjour and actually PRACTICED the flight path simulation. If you or I had practiced enough we could do it too!

He had more flight experience than Hanjour? How did you find that out? The point was well-made, that it's not some fantastic flying feat that could not be accomplished by Hani Hanjour. We can examine other sources in regard to the claim, if you wish.

I don't read garbage sites like 9/11myths, prisonplanet, etc.

The site itself has nothing to do with the information I presented, which were sourced from the Moussaui Trial. And if you're going to play games like that, "I don't accept anything from there", then don't pretend to want an answer.

So obviously you have no idea if hanjour had a gps.

No, I do have an idea that he had one, and gave evidence that suggests that was their plan in advance. Just because you decided to dismiss it out-of-hand (I don't read anything from 9/11 myths, or the Moussaui trial) does not count for an argument. Don't pretend to want answers if you're gonna refuse them, a priori.

More importantly, after years of planning, why would he need a gps? You want us to believe he was proficient enough to fly a 757 (the first and only time in his life) into the first floor of the pentagon but incompetent to navigate without a gps when far more accurate equipment was ya know.....already on the plane. Looks like you are trying too hard to justify the OCT and I love how your camp can use conjecture carte blanche while dissenters must present enough facts to plug the Potomac.

I don't think he was proficient at reading the instruments of a 757; hence the GPS. It's hard to see where you can reverse the actual reality of these debates by saying that we get to use conjecture, while you have to provide hard facts...have you actually READ this thread? If you wanna label an entire camp as using conjecture, it's definitely the 9/11 Truth camp.

The fact you thought the xponder somehow played a role in navigation proved you don't know the issue very well.

I admitted that it was irrelevant to him finding the Pentagon, and the fact that you would continue to harp on it after that admission shows me that you're more interested in scoring rhetorical points than actually getting at the truth. Perhaps you can explain why there was a big turn and descent better than I did?

Nah, you probably don't have to, as usual. Incredulity is supposed to count as proof of a conspiracy.


Btodd

 

[RealDealNeverstop]

It said "He started the maneuver at 7000 feet, 396 knots, dove almost 5000 feet within a 330 degree turn and covered 5 miles in about 3 minutes." Now, it is slightly ambiguous, sure, but as it's written it reads that the descent of 5000 feet, the 330 degree turn, and the travel of 5 miles occurred at the same time as part of "the maneuver."

If it was actually 2 minutes for the descent and 3 minutes for the travel, fine, then it's 2500 FPM. Sounds impressive. But what is that number relative to the normal operation of a 757?

It's definitely way above normal by the reactions of the ATCs as they thought it was a fighter jet.