911 Towers Were Exploded Outwards, Not Collapsed

Btodd said:

Perhaps you forgot that Hani Hanjour wasn’t the only hijacker on the plane? There were four others, you know...all with hands.

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So where is that Pentagon aircraft debris you promised? No? Okay. Then my claim of more destruction of evidence stands. It vaporized, right?

And regardless, the official story says 6'4" ex-Marine Capt. Burlingame and his equally strapping co-pilot allowed themselves to be herded to the back of the plane at knifepoint. Would never happen, says his friends.

Btodd said:

The ‘maneuver’ was a turn-and-descent, the first thing you learn before takeoff or landing. And our sim pilot in the video, who also has small plane and simulator training like Hani Hanjour...did it three times. Since ‘he practiced’ seems to be the refrain, you need to take note that so did Hani Hanjour, and the rest of the hijackers, all the way up until shortly before 9/11. I linked RealDeal to the timeline of the hijackers up until 9/11, which documents their continued training, complete with when they did it, where, and the payments made.

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LOL! a 500 MPH bank dive in a 757 is the first thing you learn in flight school? Or it's pretty much the same in a Cessna? Thanks for the chuckle, dismissed. Glad, though, you are telling all these combat pilots in Pilots for 911 Truth what the name of the maneuver is and how easy it actually is. When does your brain surgery primer for doctors begin? LOL!

Pilots for 911 Truth, an organization of hundreds of commercial and military pilots who say there is no way Hani did that flying, and didn't understand his instruments. Just a small sampling of their credentials are here:A fuller list of Pilots for 911 Truth and their credentials is HERE, I welcome the serious readers here to examine and evaluate these qualifications.

Btodd said:

The point was supposed to be about this big acrobatic maneuver (otherwise known as a turn with descent, to the reality-based crowd)

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Again, experienced pilots thank you...

Btodd said:

I’m not sure if you can even plot the light poles for the simulator, but it will be very interesting to hear you guys attempt to explain how those poles fell, when there are photos of them right after the crash, while the building is still burning, while cars are stopped in morning traffic, right there on the highway. Did a crew of guys run up there and knock down/plant light poles right along the highway full of stopped cars, without anyone noticing?

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We don't have to explain who or what hit the light poles. It's up to the government to produce the aircraft debris we saw pictures of so it can be positively identified, and explain why the Pentagon video, the most heavily surveillanced building in the world, was confiscated and disappeared. We are the ones asking the questions here. The point is it wasn't Hanjour flying, we know that's a lie.

My own speculation, let's go back to Dov Zakheim, [SIZE=-1]Pentagon Comptroller and the suspected mastermind of 911, was CEO of a company which specialized in [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]technology to seize control of a commercial aircraft from the ground. Of course anytime it's the right guys seizing control of your plane, it could also be the wrong guys too. Remember I said "speculation." If the American people want answers we have to sit people down on a witness stand, like Cheney (for failing to give the shootdown order at the plane coming into the Pentagon after 2 towers had already been hit.)

[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Remote control is old technology unless your consider those Predator drones flying over Afghanistan every day "tin foil." [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]We also know the flight paths were zig-zag but just happened to follow the edges of military bases.

Zakheim was in charge of Pentagon finances at the time $2.3 trillion was announced missing from the Pentagon, on Sept. 10, 2001, the day before 911. [/SIZE]Never mentioned again!

[SIZE=-1]Wikipedia entry for Dov Zakheim:
[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]SPC description of Zakheim's "Flight Termination System" (click on image):

[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]
Note the words "remote control and flight termination of airborne test systems." That means seizing it from the ground.

And it just so happens that the government lied about having exactly this technology. From HistoryCommons.org:

[/SIZE]

October 2, 2001: Remote Controlled Passenger Airplane Flew Before 9/11, Despite Claims to the Contrary (HistoryCommons.org)

A Raytheon 727 lands in New Mexico in August, 2001. [Source: Associated Press] It is reported that the US company Raytheon landed a 727 six times in a military base in New Mexico without any pilots on board. This was done to test equipment making future hijackings more difficult, by allowing ground con[SIZE=-1]trol to take over the flying of a hijacked plane. [Associated Press, 10/2/2001; Der Spiegel (Hamburg), 10/28/2001][/SIZE]

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[SIZE=-1]
Zakheim was one of the gang in the Bush administration who have wanted to invade Iraq all along, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz, Douglas Feith, Elliot Abrams, all members of a think tank called Project for a New American Century, which wrote letters urging Clinton to do it in the 90s. In 1996 an important policy paper was written for Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu called: "A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm" Which advised:

[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]
Who were the authors of this paper? The people who later became George Bush's foreign policy team, and members of Project for a New American Century, including Richard Perle and Douglas Feith.[/SIZE]

More on Zakheim HERE.

The rest of you post doesn't make enough sense to respond to, if you think it does please repeat. It's right HERE for anyone's reference.

I urge everyone to go to Christians for 911 Truth website, extraordinarily well-written, some points:

Why were the twin towers ground into dust and ejected laterally?

If there were no explosives in the twin towers, then the only force acting on the building at the time of collapse was the force of gravity. This force is pulling straight down through the center of the building. The vector diagram should have one large arrow pointing down.

However, what we actually see is enormous amounts of energy blowing the building outwards. This energy is directed perpendicular to the gravitational force. Where does this energy come from if not from explosives?

The majority of the building is ground into dust and blown outward as far as New Jersey. Observe photos of ground zero. There should be a pile with 110 floors of material at the bottom. However, most of the mass of the buildings was shredded to dust and blown away.

Why do independent investigators find high-energy explosives in WTC debris?

Independent investigators claim to have discovered high-energy explosives in the world trade center debris. The picture shows an unexploded piece of nano-thermite recovered from a world trade center dust sample. Nano-thermite is a high-tech explosive that was recently developed by defense department contractors at the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory. It is capable of reaching 4500 degrees within seconds and can easily cut steel. What is it doing in WTC dust samples?

It's not as if the NIST investigators don't know anything about nano-thermite. Interestingly, many of them are some of the world's most knowledgeable experts regarding nano-thermite and have been active in developing the technology.

Why did our air defenses ignore protocol and fail to protect the nation?
The U.S. has the most powerful and sophisticated air-force in the entire world. Domestic flights were intercepted 67 times in the nine months preceding 9/11. How was it possible that four hijacked aircraft where allowed to fly unmolested through U.S. airspace for over an hour and a half?

Was NORAD ordered to stand down?

How can a gravitational collapse melt steel and concrete?
Molten metal was present underneath the remains of all three world trade center towers. USGS aerial thermal imaging showed surface temperatures of over 800 degrees F five days after the attack. However, there were no fires at the surface. Aerial images were recording molten metal under the surface. There was even molten metal recorded flowing out of the towers before they came down, even though there was minimal fire. How could a gravitational collapse have caused this molten metal? (mathematical gravitational analysis)

YouTube - ‪U.S. Government lies about molten steel found at Ground Zero after 9/11‬‏

FROM CHRISTIANS FOR 911 TRUTH

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Remember, if you are poor, it is because of 911. That is what this smoke-blowing operation is trying to keep you from realizing. The 911 Wars have cost every family at the very least $50,000. But it has made some people very, very rich. False flag attacks are an old part of the tool box to drag us into wars, Gulf of Tonkin is just one, and USS Liberty is another.

Join the 1500 licensed Architects and Engineers for 911 Truth in their 2011 Justice Campaign. Initiation of a prosecution requires only sufficient evidence of wrongdoing, not a complete theory of the crime.

It is also very important to write to your congressman and demand he open a hearing for former Assistant Deputy Secretary of State Dr. Steve Pieczenik to testify.

CONTACT CONGRESS

ManFromUncle said:

So where is that Pentagon aircraft debris you promised? No? Okay. Then my claim of more destruction of evidence stands. It vaporized, right?

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Are you serious? I thought you meant 'where is it now?', and that's how you were jumping to the (fallacious) claim that it had been destroyed. It did not 'vaporize', and it's only Truthers who say such silly things. If you're seriously saying that you've never seen pictures of the debris, then here you go:

Wheel

Landing Gear

Part of the engine, from the Moussaui trial exhibits

Part of the diffuser case, smashed

Rotor hub, with matching pic from a 757, and a bogus pic from the JT8D that Loose Change tried to say this was from

More assorted parts

VAPORIZED, YOU SAY?

ManFromUncle said:

And regardless, the official story says 6'4" ex-Marine Capt. Burlingame and his equally strapping co-pilot allowed themselves to be herded to the back of the plane at knifepoint. Would never happen, says his friends.

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How did it happen? First, they stormed the cabin, in which both pilots would have been sitting in their seats with their backs to the attackers. This isn't a Steven Seagal movie, so let's not pretend that while in-flight, the good Captain left the plane flying, spun around in a second's notice, and disarmed 5 attackers. While we may never know exactly what happened on the flight, it's entirely plausible that they had a flight attendant held hostage with a blade to her throat while ordering the pilots to the back. The point being, the Captain was the unfortunate victim of having no way to stop the situation.

ManFromUncle said:

Glad, though, you are telling all these combat pilots in Pilots for 911 Truth what the name of the maneuver is and how easy it actually is. When does your brain surgery primer for doctors begin? LOL!

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As always, you will latch on to any crackpot with supposed 'expertise', to the exclusion of the other 99%, and then pretend like I'M the one going against consensus. Nice try. And you were already shown that Balsamo's physics and math were WAY off...again, he's not a physicist or mathematician.

For the record, AE911Truth, and several other 9/11 Truth organizations, have completely disowned PilotsFor911Truth, now calling them DISINFO. Remember that word? They think that Balsamo's claim of 'no plane hit the Pentagon' is a distraction, and so ridiculous that it tar-and-feathers the rest of the Truth Movement. Just FYI, since you appeal to both groups.

ManFromUncle said:

We don't have to explain who or what hit the light poles. It's up to the government to produce the aircraft debris we saw pictures of so it can be positively identified, and explain why the Pentagon video, the most heavily surveillanced building in the world, was confiscated and disappeared. We are the ones asking the questions here. The point is it wasn't Hanjour flying, we know that's a lie.

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Thank you for bolding the part that you did, because I've been making that point all along...you can't come up with a plausible explanation for any of the supposed conspiracy, and expect a one-sided argument, where you get to make things up as you go along, and never have to answer for any of it, while expecting your opponent to provide every single detail, or you get to claim 'victory'. So now, you seem to imply that if you could go personally view the wreckage yourself, that you would believe it? That's what's holding you back? Riiiight. As soon as you saw it, you would claim that it was 'fake anyway', or some other excuse to allow you to keep holding the delusional conclusion that you do.

So thank you, for admitting you have no explanation whatsoever for how those light poles got knocked over, right in front of stopped traffic on the highway, which the witnesses attest to. It 'must be fake', right? Good luck with that kind of methodology; you will still be on the internet watching YouTube videos in 5 years, still beating your head against a brick wall.

I snipped the rest of your advertisement; you seem to think it works like a radio commercial, where no matter how annoying and repetitive it is, that it will eventually convince the listener to make a stupid purchase. Not gonna happen.

Hurry back, I'll post pictures of right after the crash, so you can explain how all the wreckage, and light poles, got where they were within seconds of it, while traffic was stopped on the highway. It's going to be really entertaining, but you'll likely just go with, 'I don't have to'.


Btodd

I don't see where it's such of a stretch, to think the corrupt elites, who are involved in international swindles, could be behind something like this.

Who needs the truth, when we have science telling us what to believe? Hey you didn't see that, you're crazy or some kind of conspirator, this is what you seen or what you didn't. How dare you!!!

Cyberspace is a big concern for our government and others, controlling information and telling us who we can trust or not.

Believe it or not, that's up to you.

stelow said:

I don't see where it's such of a stretch, to think the corrupt elites, who are involved in international swindles, could be behind something like this.

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That in itself is true; it's the particulars (and the necessity the theories create) that matter. Please don't take defense of the 'official story' as the equivalent of 'believing whatever the government tells you'. That's false skepticism, and becomes straight reactionary cynicism.

stelow said:

ho needs the truth, when we have science telling us what to believe? Hey you didn't see that, you're crazy or some kind of conspirator, this is what you seen or what you didn't. How dare you!!!

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If you trust your own basic understanding of building collapses, explosives, plane crashes, on and on...over the science, and arguments/testing behind it, then you're going to be severely mistaken on a lot of things. Science isn't perfect, but there's a reason you go to the doctor when you have a serious illness, instead of assuming you know better.

stelow said:

Cyberspace is a big concern for our government and others, controlling information and telling us who we can trust or not.

Believe it or not, that's up to you.

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Sure, you always have to be wary of the real facts, and what can be discerned. But the story about 9/11 doesn't just come straight from the government, it's a ton of independent sources as well. And if you can't trust cyberspace in regard to the official story, then you can't trust it in regard to Truther theories, either.

There's still something that matters, though...that helps remove the bias of one's preconceptions. It's not perfect, but it's called science, and it's the difference between YouTube and a technical science paper.

People are free to believe whatever they want; that's not the issue. We're talking about the best explanation for a series of events.


Btodd

When the government is behind the science, the truth could be lacking in importance.

stelow said:

When the government is behind the science, the truth could be lacking in importance.

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The government didn't create the basics of physics, demolitions and structural engineering, and there are many independent sources about that day that the details, and science behind, come from. Writing it all off like that is a complete disservice to rational thinking in the first place; it's simply reactionary. Cynicism and skepticism are two entirely different things, and I don't like to see the latter mistaken for the former.


Btodd

Oh you mean like the magician trick, the EPA pulled on the ground zero workers, about the clean air.

ManFromUncle said:

So where is that Pentagon aircraft debris you promised? No? Okay. Then my claim of more destruction of evidence stands. It vaporized, right?

And regardless, the official story says 6'4" ex-Marine Capt. Burlingame and his equally strapping co-pilot allowed themselves to be herded to the back of the plane at knifepoint. Would never happen, says his friends.

LOL! a 500 MPH bank dive in a 757 is the first thing you learn in flight school? Or it's pretty much the same in a Cessna? Thanks for the chuckle, dismissed. Glad, though, you are telling all these combat pilots in Pilots for 911 Truth what the name of the maneuver is and how easy it actually is. When does your brain surgery primer for doctors begin? LOL!

Pilots for 911 Truth, an organization of hundreds of commercial and military pilots who say there is no way Hani did that flying, and didn't understand his instruments. Just a small sampling of their credentials are here:

Robert Balsamo
4000TT Commercial, Instrument, Multi, CFI II MEI
Corporate Chief Pilot

Captain Russ Wittenberg (ret)
30,000+ Total Flight Time
707, 727, 737, 747, 757, 767, 777, DC-8, L-1049, Learjet 24/25, L-188
Ground Instructor, Advanced Ground Instructor, Instrument Instructor, Flight Engineer Turbojet
Aircraft Dispatcher
Pan Am, United
United States Air Force (ret)
Over 100 Combat Missions Flown

Commander Ralph “Rotten” Kolstad
23,000 hours
27 years in the airlines
B757/767 for 13 years mostly international Captain with American Airlines.
20 years US Navy flying fighters off aircraft carriers, TopGun twice

Guy S. Razer, LtCol, USAF (Ret)
3,500+ Hours Total Flight Time
F-15E/C, F-111A/D/E/F/EF, F-16, F-18, B-1, Mig-29, SU-22, T-37/38, Various Cvilian Prop
Combat Time: Operation Northern Watch
USAF Fighter Weapons School Instructor

​

A fuller list of Pilots for 911 Truth and their credentials is HERE, I welcome the serious readers here to examine and evaluate these qualifications.



Again, experienced pilots thank you...



We don't have to explain who or what hit the light poles. It's up to the government to produce the aircraft debris we saw pictures of so it can be positively identified, and explain why the Pentagon video, the most heavily surveillanced building in the world, was confiscated and disappeared. We are the ones asking the questions here. The point is it wasn't Hanjour flying, we know that's a lie.

My own speculation, let's go back to Dov Zakheim, [SIZE=-1]Pentagon Comptroller and the suspected mastermind of 911, was CEO of a company which specialized in [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]technology to seize control of a commercial aircraft from the ground. Of course anytime it's the right guys seizing control of your plane, it could also be the wrong guys too. Remember I said "speculation." If the American people want answers we have to sit people down on a witness stand, like Cheney (for failing to give the shootdown order at the plane coming into the Pentagon after 2 towers had already been hit.) [/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]Remote control is old technology unless your consider those Predator drones flying over Afghanistan every day "tin foil." [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]We also know the flight paths were zig-zag but just happened to follow the edges of military bases.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]Zakheim was in charge of Pentagon finances at the time $2.3 trillion was announced missing from the Pentagon, on Sept. 10, 2001, the day before 911. [/SIZE]Never mentioned again!

[SIZE=-1]Wikipedia entry for Dov Zakheim:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]"From 1987-2001, Zakheim was CEO of SPC International, a subsidiary of System Planning Corporation, a high-technology analytical firm...He was then appointed to be Undersecretary of Defense and Comptroller from 2001 to 2004 under the George W. Bush administration, and served in this capacity until April 2004.[/SIZE]

​

[SIZE=-1]SPC description of Zakheim's "Flight Termination System" (click on image):[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]

[/SIZE]



[SIZE=-1]Note the words "remote control and flight termination of airborne test systems." That means seizing it from the ground.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]And it just so happens that the government lied about having exactly this technology. From HistoryCommons.org:[/SIZE]



[SIZE=-1]Zakheim was one of the gang in the Bush administration who have wanted to invade Iraq all along, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz, Douglas Feith, Elliot Abrams, all members of a think tank called Project for a New American Century, which wrote letters urging Clinton to do it in the 90s. In 1996 an important policy paper was written for Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu called: "A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm" Which advised:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]"Israel can shape its strategic environment, in cooperation with Turkey and Jordan, by weakening, containing, and even rolling back Syria. This effort can focus on removing Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq an important Israeli strategic objective in its own right as a means of foiling Syria's regional ambitions."[/SIZE]

​

[SIZE=-1]Who were the authors of this paper? The people who later became George Bush's foreign policy team, and members of Project for a New American Century, including Richard Perle and Douglas Feith.[/SIZE]

More on Zakheim HERE.

The rest of you post doesn't make enough sense to respond to, if you think it does please repeat. It's right HERE for anyone's reference.

I urge everyone to go to Christians for 911 Truth website, extraordinarily well-written, some points:

Remember, if you are poor, it is because of 911. That is what this smoke-blowing operation is trying to keep you from realizing. The 911 Wars have cost every family at the very least $50,000. But it has made some people very, very rich. False flag attacks are an old part of the tool box to drag us into wars, Gulf of Tonkin is just one, and USS Liberty is another.

Join the 1500 licensed Architects and Engineers for 911 Truth in their 2011 Justice Campaign. Initiation of a prosecution requires only sufficient evidence of wrongdoing, not a complete theory of the crime.

It is also very important to write to your congressman and demand he open a hearing for former Assistant Deputy Secretary of State Dr. Steve Pieczenik to testify.

CONTACT CONGRESS

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what happened to your thread its all stretched out

stelow said:

Oh you mean like the magician trick, the EPA pulled on the ground zero workers, about the clean air.

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More faulty 'all or nothing' reasoning. Any fault by the EPA concerning air quality is not proof of a 9/11 Inside Job™. Nor does the Kennedy Assassination, or any other side-issue, have any bearing on what happened on 9/11. Again, the difference between skepticism and cynicism.


Btodd

I did not say it was, that's your take on it. You can think what you want, I'm not going to stereo-type for the sake of debate.

Rudolph Hucker said:

I do not hate America.I do not hate Americans. I admire America. I admire many Americans. I do not admire Bush (but that is not relevant).

3000 deaths is indeed sad.

There remain unanswered questions about the events of that day.

Here is one: the 19 hijackers were Saudis. So Iraq was invaded? Is there any logic there?

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What's really sad is you. I watched the towers fall live on tv. If you have the floors of a building falling and slamming onto the floors beneath them, one after the other, and after the other, and after the other, you can safely assume that whatever is between those floors as they collide is going to fly out or get crushed. This is actual logical thinking.

Galvanized said:

What's really sad is you. I watched the towers fall live on tv. If you have the floors of a building falling and slamming onto the floors beneath them, one after the other, and after the other, and after the other, you can safely assume that whatever is between those floors as they collide is going to fly out or get crushed. This is actual logical thinking.

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What does that have to do with either my post or even the recent exchange here?

Galvanized said:

What's really sad is you. I watched the towers fall live on tv. If you have the floors of a building falling and slamming onto the floors beneath them, one after the other, and after the other, and after the other, you can safely assume that whatever is between those floors as they collide is going to fly out or get crushed. This is actual logical thinking.

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What does that have to do with the fact the majority of hijackers being Saudis?

Btodd said:

The government didn't create the basics of physics, demolitions and structural engineering, and there are many independent sources about that day that the details, and science behind, come from. Writing it all off like that is a complete disservice to rational thinking in the first place; it's simply reactionary. Cynicism and skepticism are two entirely different things, and I don't like to see the latter mistaken for the former.


Btodd

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There are experts from several fields that show why they doubt the OCT but for some strange reason you guys only consider someone an expert if they support the OCT.

RealDealNeverstop said:

There are experts from several fields that show why they doubt the OCT but for some strange reason you guys only consider someone an expert if they support the OCT.

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You still have a pending question...'intended by whom', RealDeal? Who intended to hit the remodeled portion of the Pentagon?


Btodd

Btodd said:

You still have a pending question...'intended by whom', RealDeal? Who intended to hit the remodeled portion of the Pentagon?


Btodd

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Im still waiting for you to show people with less experience than Hanjor duplicated the flight. Not holding my breath....

Regarding flight 77 debris....it's amazing how there are only 5-6 pics and none of them prove 77 hit the pentagon.

RealDealNeverstop said:

Im still waiting for you to show people with less experience than Hanjor duplicated the flight. Not holding my breath....

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The difference between us is that I discussed that at length, and even if you weren't satisfied with my answers, at least I didn't dodge it with a phony appeal to moral outrage, dismiss myself and attribute it to my opponent, and then show up again immediately as if nothing had happened.

So, this 'intention' cannot be attributed to anyone, yet it still stands?


Btodd

RealDealNeverstop said:

Regarding flight 77 debris....it's amazing how there are only 5-6 pics and none of them prove 77 hit the pentagon.

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Yeah, that's a nice attempt at moving on. Unfortunately, if I ask you how to explain it, it will be punted, and you'll try to move on again.

It's like 5 years ago, all over again. I wonder why the Truth Movement is still beating its head against the wall?


Btodd

Btodd said:

The difference between us is that I discussed that at length, and even if you weren't satisfied with my answers, at least I didn't dodge it with a phony appeal to moral outrage, dismiss myself and attribute it to my opponent, and then show up again immediately as if nothing had happened.

So, this 'intention' cannot be attributed to anyone, yet it still stands?


Btodd

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Lol......you had to discuss it at length to try and cover up the fact you made a bogus claim.