90 Minutes in Heaven, by Pastor Don Piper

[Alive_Again]

Now, why don't you go off and think about what I've said. Good boy.

I did not return your insult. I commented that it would be a natural assocation with someone using a devil for an avatar? Do you deny that is what your picture represents? I'm curious, because if you asked 1,000 Americans, probably 999 would say it was a devil. What do you associate it with? Actually, I'm shocked at the avatars many people choose and some look like they came out of the grave still dead. What do people think about when they choose them?

I said: That's about the fruit I would expect from someone with a devil for an avatar. I do not judge you by the appearance, but don't you care about the appearance of evil?

I said: If part of you really did want to please the Lord, wouldn't you want to nurture that, particularly since people do tend to judge by the outward appearance, and your appearance by avatar and by the "Black Sabbath" is evil. Even if it is primarily a stage act, their are spirits loosed in the earth by permission by the inverted pentagram.

Okay, first let me say this before I respond to the above quote. Alive Again, thank you for the personal attack against me based on nothing but my Black Sabbath avatar! I really appreciated that. Nice "fruit", as you put it. It's nice of you to inform me that I am aligned with Satan and his demons just because Black Sabbath is my favourite band. Gee, like I haven't had anyone on CF slander me like this before.

This was not an attack. If someone comes along with a pair of horns and is insulting, I would consider it par for the course. I would strongly encourage you to reconsider partaking of B.S. It's of the world, and the devil, and Christians have no business partaking in it. Without turning this into a Black Sabbath thread, a couple of quick points:

"I really wish I knew why I've done some of the things I've done over the years. I don't know if I'm a medium for some outside source. Whatever it is, frankly, I hope it's not what I think it is - Satan."
Ozzy Osbourne (Hit Parader, February 1978

The song N.I.B.
"Now I have you with me, under my power, Our love grows stronger now with every hour, look into my eyes, you will see who I am, MY NAME IS LUCIFER, PLEASE TAKE MY HAND ”

I reject that and every association with it in Jesus' name!

"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Abstain from all appearance of evil."
1 Thess 5:21-22

Not just because I'm saying it, but this band has definitely the appearance of evil. Furthermore, God's anointing won't share time with the anointing this band ministers.

I'm an old rocker myself. I played guitar countless hours and covered a number of B.S. songs from the earliest days. When I was in the world, I thought nothing about "We sold our souls for rock n' roll" (Deep Purple) or things like it found in many metal rock songs. We'd say that were "wicked"! After I became a Christian, I'd occasionally break out a rock album here and there, and I would struggle spiritually because I let the door open to the enemy. After I returned from a long backsliding, I got rid of everything at the Holy Spirit's behest.

Regarding Heaven...

Whether it was 45 minutes or 90 is immaterial.

The exact time has little or no relevance and is a diversion from the message.

It is my intent that you are not offended by what I say, although you most assuredly will because you are still yet caught in the cords of this stronghold. It might not be "nice" to tell you these things as you say, but God is not mocked and the Word is true. You can enjoy a new freedom by cooperating with the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit.

 

[probinson]

Those versions you showed are not highly respected by all.

Oh. Are you one of those KJV-only folks?

by the way, plateia is found 9 times in the Word of God and is not translated as 'main street' in any of those 9 times except in modern versions.

Would you consider Young's Literal Translation of scripture as "resepcted"?

Revelation 21:21 (YLT)
And the twelve gates [are] twelve pearls, each several one of the gates was of one pearl; and the broad-place of the city [is] pure gold -- as transparent glass.
​

This literal translation of scripture says "the broad-place" of the city. Some other translations say "broadway".

The point is, your insistence that there is only one street in heaven is not definitively suppported by Revelation 21:21, no matter how much you may be in denial to the contrary.

 

[probinson]

Now, regarding you probinson and your response to my post. Yes, I can see where you're coming from. I cannot with "authority" claim that watches will stop working in Heaven.

I can see that from reading this, it does seem a little audacious to state. So let me rephrase what I believe to something more plausible.

Let's say someone did go to Heaven and their watch was working and 90 minutes elapsed, by their watch. That still does not mean that actually 90 minutes actually elapsed. Someone replied before saying that even for eg, if 90 minutes by your watch is not 90 minutes by time spent in Jupiter, (as I compared to), it is still 90 minutes by earth standards and by the differential readout of your watch.

But that analogy is false. Because you are comparing 2 finite natural places. Earth and Jupiter operate by the laws of nature and the universe. There's the law of gravity, laws of electromagnetic radiation, laws of life, decay and death. They are both finite, so that if you went to Jupiter and by your watch 90 minutes elapsed, then that is 90 minutes by your earth time. Regardless of what 90 minutes is equivalent by Jupiter's time.


But you cannot compare 90 minutes according to your watch according to earth time to that of Heaven. Because you are now comparing apples and oranges. Heaven is a completely supernatural dimension. And that I can authoritatively say. There is no night and day, just constant radiance from the glory of God. There is no beginning nor end, but eternity. And there is no death, decay or corruption. Heaven is completely boundless by the laws of nature and the universe and is manifested purely by the supernatural powers of God. Therefore there is no day, date and time.

To compare going to Heaven, you have to compare it to another non finite dimension. One that operates out of the scope of the laws of the universe and nature. And the best comparison I can think of is dreaming. Dreams are not bound by space, time, distance, the laws of the universe, nature etc. I can fall asleep and be in another country or in another time in a dream. I can even be a woman in a dream.

So compare the infiniteness of dreaming now to the infiniteness of Heaven, thus comparing apples directly with apples. Where the normal rules of space and time don't exist. Just like in Heaven, 20 minutes being there according to your watch if it is still working is not 20 minutes even by earth standards. You could have died on an operating table, gone to Heaven and 4 hours elapsed by your watch and then be resuscitated and be brought back to earth. All within a few minutes of actual earth time-not 4 hours.

Make sense?

Um, not really.

So you're saying that I could die for 2 minutes on an operating table, but if I spent 4 hours in heaven, my watch would now be 3 hours and 58 minutes fast when I woke up, provided of course I was wearing it during those 4 hours in heaven?

No, that really doesn't make sense to me... Sorry.

But in any event, would you feel better if the book's title were changed to, "90 Earth Minuntes in Heaven's Infinite Timespace"?

 

[Studious One]

Since a day with the Lord is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day, and Piper makes the ridiculous claim of having been dead for 90 minutes on earth, perhaps Piper's fairy tale would be better titled "253 Days in Heaven" (the equivalent of 90 minutes based on the 1 day/1000 years scale)

 

[Studious One]

Oh. Are you one of those KJV-only folks?



Would you consider Young's Literal Translation of scripture as "resepcted"?

Revelation 21:21 (YLT)
And the twelve gates [are] twelve pearls, each several one of the gates was of one pearl; and the broad-place of the city [is] pure gold -- as transparent glass.
​

This literal translation of scripture says "the broad-place" of the city. Some other translations say "broadway".

The point is, your insistence that there is only one street in heaven is not definitively suppported by Revelation 21:21, no matter how much you may be in denial to the contrary.

I put about as much trust in Young's Literal Translation as I do the satanic bible (which means I don't trust it at all)

Young's implies that the Son will not always remain in His Father's House, but will one day cease to be in His Father's House.

Matter of fact, Youngs even goes so far as to claim that one day Jesus will lose His power and that true believers will one day no longer exist.

Yet my Bible teaches me Jesus Christ remains for ever. I'll stick with my Bible. You can keep your fairy tales by Piper, Sigmund, Young, or any other that contradict the Word of God.

 

[Faulty]

Compare apples to apples, not apples to oranges. You cannot quanitfy a time in Heaven, just like in a dream, by looking at a clock or watch when you are actually in Heaven or in a dream.

Except for the part that you can, Revelation 8:1. You're building on a presumption that can stand up to scripture.

 

[probinson]

I put about as much trust in Young's Literal Translation as I do the satanic bible (which means I don't trust it at all)

......

I'll stick with my Bible. You can keep your fairy tales by Piper, Sigmund, Young, or any other that contradict the Word of God.

Oh please, spare us the histrionics. All they do is make you look foolish, and incapable of rational discussion.

If you're going to make off-the-wall claims about Young's translation, it would behoove you to cite specifically what you're talking about, because I simply am not going to take what you say as fact without some corroborating proof.

I've presented translations of the Bible that call into question your claim about the street of heaven. Explain to me how you can know with certainty that you've hitched your wagon to the correct interpretation.

And also, could you possibly clarify what you mean when you say, "Word of God"? What is the acceptable "Word of God" to you? Since you've attempted to discredit everything I've presented that contradicts your agenda as not being the "Word of God" (despite the fact that it clearly is), it would be nice if you could lay out clearly what you mean when you say "Word of God".

I'll repeat my question in an attempt to get some semblance of an answer; "Are you one of those KJV-only folks?"

 

[probinson]

Since a day with the Lord is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day, and Piper makes the ridiculous claim of having been dead for 90 minutes on earth, perhaps Piper's fairy tale would be better titled "253 Days in Heaven" (the equivalent of 90 minutes based on the 1 day/1000 years scale)

I was told there would be no math....

There are 1,440 minutes in one day. Therefore, 90 minutes is exactly 1/16 of one day.

There are 365 days in one year. Not including leap years, there are 365,000 days in 1,000 years. 1/16 of 365,000 days is 22,812.5 days.

Therefore, 90 minutes is equivalent to 22,812.5 days on the 1 day/1,000 years scale. Your calculations are slightly off. By tens of thousands of days.

 

[Studious One]

Oh please, spare us the histrionics. All they do is make you look foolish, and incapable of rational discussion.

If you're going to make off-the-wall claims about Young's translation, it would behoove you to cite specifically what you're talking about, because I simply am not going to take what you say as fact without some corroborating proof.

I've presented translations of the Bible that call into question your claim about the street of heaven. Explain to me how you can know with certainty that you've hitched your wagon to the correct interpretation.

And also, could you possibly clarify what you mean when you say, "Word of God"? What is the acceptable "Word of God" to you? Since you've attempted to discredit everything I've presented that contradicts your agenda as not being the "Word of God" (despite the fact that it clearly is), it would be nice if you could lay out clearly what you mean when you say "Word of God".

I'll repeat my question in an attempt to get some semblance of an answer; "Are you one of those KJV-only folks?"

How do I know with certainty that I've hitched my wagon to the correct interpretation? The Holy Spirit assures me I have.

What is the Word of God? Truth.

As to the YLT, I challenge you to do some homework on that. After all, the Word of God tells us to study to show ourselves approved unto God. You apparently have access to the YLT, so it should not be too hard for you to find those statement's of Robert Young's where he shows the believer will not live forever, that Christ will not be in power forever, and that Christ will not be in His Father's House forever.

 

[probinson]

How do I know with certainty that I've hitched my wagon to the correct interpretation? The Holy Spirit assures me I have.

The Holy Spirit assures me I have as well. Now I suppose we've got a conflict...

Try again; how do you know with certainty that you've got the correct interpretation of how many streets there are in heaven?

What is the Word of God? Truth.

Swell. I agree.

But you've called into question the translation of the "Word of God" that I've presented to you, for no good reason other than it disagrees with your agenda. You've failed to illustrate, beyond anything but proof by assertion, why what I have posted in any way contradicts the "Truth".

As to the YLT, I challenge you to do some homework on that. After all, the Word of God tells us to study to show ourselves approved unto God. You apparently have access to the YLT, so it should not be too hard for you to find those statement's of Robert Young's where he shows the believer will not live forever, that Christ will not be in power forever, and that Christ will not be in His Father's House forever.

Anyone who has access to the Internet has access to the YLT via any number of websites where the Bible is posted in its entirety. For me personally, www.biblegateway.com is where I access most translations of scripture.

How about this; I challenge you to prove your own claim. Since you're the one that made the accusation, the burden of proof rests on you, not me.

But to be honest, I could sincerely care less what Robert Young had to say, as that has absolutely nothing to do with what we're talking about. Instead, I challenge you to show me why the YLT translation of Revelation 21:21 is flawed, since that's what we were actually discussing before you went down your little irrelevant rabbit trail. That way, hopefully we can move past this diversion, and get back to the topic at hand.

 

[Biblicist]

Having read through a few pages of this topic I think that it has gone well past its used by date.

Its one thing to have a reasonded debate on the merits of these books but when we start to resort to insults and amazingly with clocks, how many streets there may or may not be in heaven or with how many heavens there are it does appear that we have lost the plot.

Alive Again - this is the reason that I avoided going into detail over the points raised in Pipers book as I could see that it would easily go the way that it has.

Barry

 

[Tobias]

Having read through a few pages of this topic I think that it has gone well past its used by date.

Its one thing to have a reasonded debate on the merits of these books but when we start to resort to insults and amazingly with clocks, how many streets there may or may not be in heaven or with how many heavens there are it does appear that we have lost the plot.

Alive Again - this is the reason that I avoided going into detail over the points raised in Pipers book as I could see that it would easily go the way that it has.

Barry

I think there are a ton more important issues that can be discussed here!


Take for instance: What happens to our clothes when we die and go to heaven? I know the Bible tells us that the Marriage Supper of the Lamb has required clothing, but I certainly hope that when I die I don't have to spend eternity wearing a night gown! Or a toga... whatever the traditionally thought of clothing of heaven is supposed to be. (Worn with what, boxers or briefs?)

I need to do a thorough research of all the "Died and Went to Heaven" books, but I imagine some of these people tell of what they were wearing there. In all the ghost folklore stories, it seems these people are stuck throughout eternity wearing whatever they had on when they died. If they died wearing a watch, then it would be stuck on their arm indefinitely! In which case.... Does a Christian who dies wearing a watch, end up in heaven with a watch on his/her arm? And then, would this watch be keeping track of Earth time, or Heaven time? If it is only a spiritual representation of a Earth watch, then it probably would keep track of heaven time. I don't know, what do you guys think?

Also, there is the factor of having our every desire met in heaven. People believe that their dogs and cats will be there to meet them; simply because they cannot imagine an eternity without their much loved pets! So if in Heaven I asked God for a watch... could I get one that keeps both Earth time and Heaven time?

Would anybody care to present a case that proves scripturally I could not get a watch in heaven that keeps dual time?

 

[BlackSabb]

Having read through a few pages of this topic I think that it has gone well past its used by date.

Its one thing to have a reasonded debate on the merits of these books but when we start to resort to insults and amazingly with clocks..........
Barry

I think there are a ton more important issues that can be discussed here!

I need to do a thorough research of all the "Died and Went to Heaven" books, but I imagine some of these people tell of what they were wearing there. In all the ghost folklore stories, it seems these people are stuck throughout eternity wearing whatever they had on when they died. If they died wearing a watch, then it would be stuck on their arm indefinitely! In which case.... Does a Christian who dies wearing a watch, end up in heaven with a watch on his/her arm? And then, would this watch be keeping track of Earth time, or Heaven time? If it is only a spiritual representation of a Earth watch, then it probably would keep track of heaven time. I don't know, what do you guys think?

So if in Heaven I asked God for a watch... could I get one that keeps both Earth time and Heaven time?

Would anybody care to present a case that proves scripturally I could not get a watch in heaven that keeps dual time?

Oh dear-look at the logical progression of what some offbeat carrying on about clocks and watches has started....Let's all rebuke this person.

 

[Tobias]

I'm certain I'm not the only one who feels this way. But if I get to heaven and God refuses to give me a real live working light-saber and Jedi training I'm going to cry!! And we all know what the Bible has to say about tears in Heaven!!


Just you wait and see. In a few more years, people coming back from their visits to heaven are going to be telling tales of the bands of Jedi knights roaming about the city...

 

[whatfor]

Swords or bow and arrows only , sorry.

 

[Tobias]

Swords or bow and arrows only , sorry.

 

[whatfor]

The book I read could be wrong.

 

[Alive_Again]

Alive Again - this is the reason that I avoided going into detail over the points raised in Pipers book as I could see that it would easily go the way that it has.

It needn't be that way. If their are points expressed that are in need of understanding, then it can be discussed peaceably, as is the wisdom from above. If we do not readily understand it, then put the point on the shelf and move on to another. Wisdom is not a vending machine to be dispensed at the will of another (although asking for it expectantly is the Word of God). Sometimes it is provided as precepts are established, which can take a little time or become clear as other things are understood.

 

[lismore]

These experiences happen to a lot of people, non-Christians, people of all sort of religions. A lady I went to Uni with was a Wiccan, she 'died' for a few minutes and met the horned god of the woods, Cerrunos. Is that proof that a humanoid with a deer's head rules over the Scottish woods?

The bible also says that a man caught up to the third heaven was not permitted to share what he had seen!

These days people claim to have been in the third heaven and make cash through selling books on it.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Nice thing about the 'annointing,' if you question the person with it, by default you are questioning God. Very handy in a pinch.

As regards interpretation: maybe the idea of an 'authorized' interpretation isn't so bad. Something like the EO or RC have.