.

All4Christ · Sep 5, 2019

MyChainsAreGone said:
Do you really mean that?

What about at the park, or doing sports, or swimming?

It is actually scriptural to minimize clothing during sporting events...

Hebrews 12:1 -

Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,

"great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us" = big crowd gathered to watch a sporting event

"let us also lay aside every encumbrance ... which so easily entangles us" = strip to a bare minimum of clothing (which was literally nude in ancient times)

"run with endurance the race" = a public sporting event

The writer of Hebrews is asking his readers to call to mind a common public sporting event of their time, reminding them of the importance of running without "encumbrance"--in the runner's case, their clothing--to make a spiritual point of being singlemindedly committed to running our spiritual race well.

Clearly, the writer of Hebrews did not consider naked race-running to be inappropriate in the context he described. Rather, it was a good "object lesson"

Add the words “generally speaking”, to my sentence. I spoke about “in regards to modesty” as well. That said, I don’t wear plunging necklines at the park. I don’t just wear bras when running. I don’t wear plunging necklines or high thigh lines with my swimsuit.

There is style, and there is function.

This is a place to share our understanding of Christian modesty...and this is one of the ways I try to follow this. ** My understanding, not yours **

MyChainsAreGone · Sep 5, 2019

All4Christ said:
I will try to get to this soon, but I have most of my books packed (we are moving), so I need to find the sources online. We also have a busy night, so it may not be tonight. I can’t answer this fully without time to be at my laptop for awhile.

Take your time.

Thanks.

bèlla · Sep 5, 2019

bekkilyn · Sep 5, 2019

MyChainsAreGone said:
Rebecca, I really liked your post.

I do have a follow-up I'd like you to expand on...

On what basis are you basing your comments about "professional prostitutes"?

Undoubtedly, there were such women (and men?) in Paul's day, but I actually don't see any evidence that that was in Paul's mind while writing 1 Timothy 2:8-10.

The ONLY thing that I see in the passage relative to clothing has to do with the flaunting of wealth.

I honestly think that it's only in western culture and modern Christianity that we've added the "sexual" component to the passage... but as I read Paul's words, it's simply not there at all.

Is there something I'm missing?

Thanks.

Took me a while to find where I remembered seeing the reference, and I couldn't remember the actual Greek term when I wrote the post, so hence "professional prostitute", but what I more specifically referring to were the Hetairai.

Hetairai: The Ancient Athenian Courtesan

I first came across them in reference to scripture when I read a book called "What Paul Really Said About Women" though I've seen it in a couple other places over time that the specific apparel Paul was describing in the passage matched with apparel the Hetairai would have worn, so a woman wearing such extravagant apparel out in public might be mistaken for one of these ladies.

Personally, I believe the idea that Paul is warning his readers away from flaunting wealth is enough in and of itself, but when there are other possibilities as well, it only goes to reinforce that scripture is NOT as clear as those who wish to use scripture in order to put burdensome limitations on other people seem to want people to believe.

All4Christ · Sep 5, 2019

LaBèlla said:
Very nice! Gosh ladies. You’ll have me shopping! ~lol

I wanted to go shopping as I looked through the photos!

NeedyFollower · Sep 5, 2019

LaBèlla said:
What does Christian modesty mean for men and women in today’s culture?

To facilitate the discussion I’m requesting three things from respondents:

— Please share an opinion based on your gender first. This subject skews disproportionately towards women and I would like to see edifying comments for both sexes.

— Please provide biblical support for your opinion if applicable.

— And for the sake of clarity for everyone, please share a visible example of the modest attire you’re addressing. Please avoid posting immodest images or videos in deference to those with struggles.

Thank you. I look forward to your response.

I used to be a " Polo " shirt and dock-siders . Navy blazer and business suits . I got out of business when the Lord Jesus came and got me . Now I dress so as to ( hopefully )not draw attention to myself . I do not have any way of posting pictures and I generally shy away from photos of me .
I do not want to be legalistic about anything . I have Amish and Mennonite brothers and sisters who dress "plain " . But from talking with them , they would indicate that anything can become another god ..even our "holy " attire .
With that said , I am very sorry that women and men have been taught that their "outward " appearance is what matters and I see old men trying to be young and attractive . How exhausting .
I am trying to "die" to self through Christ so that He has prominence . As the scriptures say , the inner man . A meek and quiet spirit . Again according to the bible , we are to be clothed in humility . I know my flesh must be changed anyway so why dress it up ?

Paidiske · Sep 5, 2019

timewerx said:
Unfortunately, we don't know exactly which of those laws still applies today.

Actually we do. Acts 15:19-21 spells it out.

AbbaLove said:
Would today's Christian woman wear the following modest attire (with bare feet) in a church or synagogue during a special Holy Day?

Well, I can only answer for myself. The dress is lovely but white is horribly impractical. I would choose something with more colour.

And bare feet, no. But I would never step out of the house in bare feet.

All4Christ · Sep 5, 2019

MyChainsAreGone said:
Thanks for replying. I'm cool with that.

Can you give me some examples of others who taught the same thing, though?

How do you harmonize the practice of nude baptism with the assertions from Clement about the visible female form? (just asking for your perspective...)

Yeah, no need to debate.

But you are making claims about early church fathers that I've not heard before... and I'd like to see them documented, if you don't mind.

And out of curiosity... would you assert that if the early church believed something, that we should embrace it too? Even if it is not included in the Canon of Scripture?

One reference in regards to consideration of Clement’s Epistles as Scripture:

Development of the New Testament canon - Wikipedia

Also from the Apostolic Constitutions

Apostolic Canon #85
Canon 85. Let the following books be esteemed venerable and holy by all of you, both clergy and laity. [A list of books of the Old Testament ...] And our sacred books, that is, of the New Testament, are the four Gospels, of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John; the fourteen Epistles of Paul; two Epistles of Peter; three of John; one of James; one of Jude; two Epistles of Clement; and the Constitutions dedicated to you, the bishops, by me, Clement, in eight books, which is not appropriate to make public before all, because of the mysteries contained in them; and the Acts of us, the Apostles.—(From the Latin version.)
Development of the New Testament canon - Wikipedia

timewerx · Sep 5, 2019

Paidiske said:
Actually we do. Acts 15:19-21 spells it out.

Thanks Paidiske. Sadly those verses still not brings clarity to me.

I have doubts about James saying "It is my judgement...." He seemed to have depended on his own understanding here which can be problematic for many reasons.

Paidiske · Sep 5, 2019

True, but then we have the fact that the church received that judgement and included it in the canon, which suggests that they found it to be authoritative?

AbbaLove · Sep 6, 2019

Paidiske said:
Well, I can only answer for myself. The dress is lovely but white is horribly impractical. I would choose something with more colour.

And bare feet, no. But I would never step out of the house in bare feet.

AbbaLove said:
Would today's Christian woman wear the following modest attire (with bare feet) in a church or synagogue during a special Holy Day?

Bride Of Christ

My post was more along the line of getting us to think about that special Holy Day when clothed in a new garment (Titus 3:5). The garment in the photo is a baptismal gown. Also representing my idea of a spiritual wedding gown for a chosen Bride of Chirst ...

Ephesians 5:26-27
that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish.

Isn't that what He is also telling us about how we clothe ourselves [spirituallly] without spots or wrinkles or blemishes. He so desires to prepare us for clothing us in our wedding garment.

1 Peter 3:3-4 (this is my favorite Bible verse relative to this thread)
Don’t be concerned about the outward beauty of fancy hairstyles, expensive jewelry, or beautiful clothes. You should clothe yourselves instead with the beauty that comes from within, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is so precious to God.

Revelation 7:14
"These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

timewerx · Sep 6, 2019

Paidiske said:
True, but then we have the fact that the church received that judgement and included it in the canon, which suggests that they found it to be authoritative?

There's plenty of commandments in the Bible we don't do. Yet they were still included in the Canon.

Things like animal sacrifice, passover, etc. Some of these were overridden by more recent teachings. Some were relatively clearly explained why we don't do them anymore. Some less so.

God allowed these for a reason.

bèlla · Sep 6, 2019

Zachm531 · Sep 7, 2019

LaBèlla said:
Is it possible you’ve left something out in your statement? The decision to sin in light of those things requires susceptibility within your person.

Does reading an article or hearing a report about crime lead you to do the same? Probably not. I can name a litany of sins you are unlikely to replicate and that is true for all of us.

James addresses this candidly.

Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death. —James 1:13-15

Unfortunately, it isn’t always that simple. As this thread proves. Accusations can be levied where no impropriety exists. And consider the suppositions regarding my images.

We broach this subject with a litany of biases and baggage that we thrust onto others. That isn’t loving, biblical, or Christ-like.

Sexual sin is a lot different from other sins and is very easy to get lured into.

Zachm531 · Sep 7, 2019

MyChainsAreGone said:
I disagree with your application of the "stumbling block" teaching, because in Romans 14, Paul said that it was "causing to stumble" if someone sees you doing something and they join you in doing it, despite the fact that they think it's wrong. In other words, if a strong Christian woman wears a bikini, and her not-so-strong-Christian friend sees her and decides to wear a bikini, too... because her strong friend did (even though she kinda thinks it's wrong), then--and ONLY then--the strong Christian woman has caused her weaker friend to "stumble."

It is NEVER "causing to stumble" if someone has a sinful response to another person who is just living their lives. Remember, there were a LOT of Pharisees that had a sinful response to Jesus' actions... all the time. Yet it was not a sin of Jesus that they had that wrong and sinful response to Him.

But let me ask you about your measure of "intent" being the measure of "modesty." If that is so, then a woman could be modest in a bikini at the beach, since that sort of attire is accepted there. And she may go to the beach solely for the purpose of recreation and catching some rays... completely without any intention at all to create lustful responses in others.

And going further, on many beaches in the world, it is perfectly acceptable for women to go topless. So--again, by your measure--if a Christian goes topless in that setting (with no intent of inflaming lust), then she too would still be "modest."

For the record, I know that's probably not what you meant, but I would agree... that when someone intends to cause lust in others, there's a problem. But if not--and the context is such where it is appropriate--then it is NOT "immodest"... even if the women is topless.

No matter who you are, man or woman if you are showing skin, it is to draw attention to yourselves. You are more likely to see a dude with a six pack shirtless on a beach rather than a heavier dude. And it is a stumbling block, you are causing another person to lust. People pick clothing that will make them look the best that they can look. Period.

bmjackson · Sep 7, 2019

In Germany, there is a long history of nakedness being connected with natural living, being close to nature and health. There were many areas where it was completely normal to be partially of fully undressed like lakesides or beaches. It probably is fading now but when I was there a while ago, and in one of those areas, where women were swimming naked, I noticed that the men were not staring at them and I could not catch a glimpse of them giving any attention at all which showed it is cultural.

Paidiske · Sep 7, 2019

Zachm531 said:
No matter who you are, man or woman if you are showing skin, it is to draw attention to yourselves. You are more likely to see a dude with a six pack shirtless on a beach rather than a heavier dude. And it is a stumbling block, you are causing another person to lust. People pick clothing that will make them look the best that they can look. Period.

Too broad a generalisation. Context matters, and someone's intent may well not be what you read into it on observation. People might "show skin" for all kinds of reasons that have nothing to do with drawing attention.

And nobody causes another person to lust. Each person is responsible for his or her own heart.

bèlla · Sep 7, 2019

bekkilyn · Sep 7, 2019

People who have issues with lust are going to lust regardless of how people are dressed or not dressed. When a person is covered from head to toe, the person with lust issues is going to imagine all of the temptations beneath. The solution isn't to control other people, but to bring it directly to God.

Zachm531 · Sep 7, 2019

Paidiske said:
Too broad a generalisation. Context matters, and someone's intent may well not be what you read into it on observation. People might "show skin" for all kinds of reasons that have nothing to do with drawing attention.

And nobody causes another person to lust. Each person is responsible for his or her own heart.

Whats another reason that somebody would show skin

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