80,000 Russian troops staged at Ukraine - what now, Obama?

[cow451]

That is the same question I have posed on this forum and on others where right wingers keep using this issue to attack President Obama. As always, not one person can come up with a logical answer.

Same silence I get asking similar questions.

 

[mindlight]

That is the same question I have posed on this forum and on others where right wingers keep using this issue to attack President Obama. As always, not one person can come up with a logical answer.

Its none of Obamas business, he cannot really do anything about it , but he has to shout loudly cause the USA has a treaty with the Ukraine guaranteeing its sovereign integrity. I appreciate this puts him in a bind and makes him vulnerable to accusation of hypocrisy and weakness. Personally I do not like Obama , do not like the things he may have done to help promote the Kiev coup in the first place that precipitated this crisis ,but now that he is in this mess, there is probably little different that I would do in his position, although my rhetoric would be very different.

 

[mindlight]

I know of no one who has done more for humanity than Jesus. In fact, there is nothing wrong with Christianity ... The trouble is with you Christians. You do not begin to live up to your own teachings.- Mahatma Ghandi

Said a famous bisexual, wife beating, probably unsaved, racist who once said:

“A general belief seems to prevail in the colony that the Indians are little better, if at all, than the savages or natives of Africa. Even the children are taught to believe in that manner, with the result that the Indian is being dragged down to the position of a raw Kaffir.”

 

[cow451]

Its none of Obamas business, he cannot really do anything about it , but he has to shout loudly cause the USA has a treaty with the Ukraine guaranteeing its sovereign integrity. I appreciate this puts him in a bind and makes him vulnerable to accusation of hypocrisy and weakness. Personally I do not like Obama , do not like the things he may have done to help promote the Kiev coup in the first place that precipitated this crisis ,but now that he is in this mess, there is probably little different that I would do in his position, although my rhetoric would be very different.

The treaty, to my knowledge, is not a defense pact, nor a "guarantee." But I agree that harsh language is about all we can do short term. Unless NATO countries are worried, we should simply continue as is. We can certainly ante up to support the Ukranian economy and beef up military support.

 

[Nithavela]

Said a famous bisexual, wife beating, probably unsaved, racist who once said:

“A general belief seems to prevail in the colony that the Indians are little better, if at all, than the savages or natives of Africa. Even the children are taught to believe in that manner, with the result that the Indian is being dragged down to the position of a raw Kaffir.”

Sounds like he had a point there, too. Also: Bisexual: so? Wife Beating: citation needed. Unsaved: By your standarts, yes, as he was a Hindu. Racist: Citation needed.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Sounds like he had a point there, too. Also: Bisexual: so? Wife Beating: citation needed. Unsaved: By your standarts, yes, as he was a Hindu. Racist: Citation needed.

And yet, even if all these things are the unvarnished truth, what does it say about today's Christians (let alone the ones from his time) who are unable/unwilling to live up to the standards he set in his statement?

 

[SolomonVII]

Be perfect, as Christ is perfect..

That is the Christian standard.

 

[mindlight]

The treaty, to my knowledge, is not a defense pact, nor a "guarantee." But I agree that harsh language is about all we can do short term. Unless NATO countries are worried, we should simply continue as is. We can certainly ante up to support the Ukranian economy and beef up military support.

Throwing resources at the Ukraine might backfire from Obamas perspective. Afterall they need American money to pay for Russian gas. Also Putin can use the excuse of an increasingly aggressive government in Kiev to take the Eastern Ukraine also ( i think this would be a good idea) The Americans may then inherit an aggressive Ukrainian ally pushing to join NATO and immediately qualifying as Americas most likely ally to get it into a war. Also for many Ukranian industries and especially in the Russian East EU membership will mean they go out of business. The Russian market is more attractive to many for purely pragmatic reasons

 

[OGM]

Throwing resources at the Ukraine might backfire from Obamas perspective. Afterall they need American money to pay for Russian gas. Also Putin can use the excuse of an increasingly aggressive government in Kiev to take the Eastern Ukraine also ( i think this would be a good idea)

That could be very problematic for Russia because he now has to prop up Crimea. The more he takes on the more manpower and money it will cost. These areas are not exactly Frankfurt, New York, London or Paris. They need help and will need help for years to come. Also water and electricity will have to come from somewhere or be paid by someone.

The Americans may then inherit an aggressive Ukrainian ally pushing to join NATO and immediately qualifying as Americas most likely ally to get it into a war.

If the Ukraine joins NATO, Russia will have to think about annexing property in a NATO area. The irony is that what he did pushed the Ukraine further to the West than ever before because he is feared.

Also for many Ukrainian industries and especially in the Russian East EU membership will mean they go out of business. The Russian market is more attractive to many for purely pragmatic reasons

Many business will go under because the area is seen as more unstable. Less tourist will go there not. Not to mention the affect this is all having on the Russian stock market and Rubble value.

Another factor is that the United States, Canada and Australia is seeking to export more natural gas to Europe in the next few years. This will cut dependence on Russian natural gas.

 

[Nithavela]

Be perfect, as Christ is perfect..

That is the Christian standard.

You are referring to Matthew 5:48?

Nonono.

As many christians have told me, that is an allegory for.. something. Just like giving away all your money or that a rich man is highly unlikely to get into heaven.

What is not allegorical are of course talking snakes, donkeys, unicorns, dragons, as well as giant boats that defy the laws of physics and people surviving in the bellies of fish.

Just be a born again christian, and then nothing can stop you from entering heaven, so sin like you want and look down on the other christians, treating them as second rate.

You know, in the bible are a lot of stories about false faiths and prophets and that the devil is able to twist the word of God.

I'm not saying... I'm just saying.

 

[GarfieldJL]

That could be very problematic for Russia because he now has to prop up Crimea. The more he takes on the more manpower and money it will cost. These areas are not exactly Frankfurt, New York, London or Paris. They need help and will need help for years to come. Also water and electricity will have to come from somewhere or be paid by someone.

You're assuming he isn't going to invade the rest of Ukraine next...

If the Ukraine joins NATO, Russia will have to think about annexing property in a NATO area. The irony is that what he did pushed the Ukraine further to the West than ever before because he is feared.

That remains to be seen, if Putin goes after Estonia next, then I guess we'll see whether or not Putin cares whether or not a country is a NATO member.

Many business will go under because the area is seen as more unstable. Less tourist will go there not. Not to mention the affect this is all having on the Russian stock market and Rubble value.

That depends on the Europeans, if the rest of Europe imposes harsh sanctions, then Russia will suffer serious economic hardship. Otherwise, I think Russia's economy won't suffer because of this.

Another factor is that the United States, Canada and Australia is seeking to export more natural gas to Europe in the next few years. This will cut dependence on Russian natural gas.

That's if the United States decides to export more natural gas to Europe, remember that has to be signed off on by the Obama Administration, and until he's actually signed off on it, I wouldn't hold my breath.

 

[SolomonVII]

You are referring to Matthew 5:48?

Nonono.

As many christians have told me, that is an allegory for.. something. Just like giving away all your money or that a rich man is highly unlikely to get into heaven.

What is not allegorical are of course talking snakes, donkeys, unicorns, dragons, as well as giant boats that defy the laws of physics and people surviving in the bellies of fish.

Just be a born again christian, and then nothing can stop you from entering heaven, so sin like you want and look down on the other christians, treating them as second rate.

You know, in the bible are a lot of stories about false faiths and prophets and that the devil is able to twist the word of God.

I'm not saying... I'm just saying.

Allegory or not, it is the Christian standard.

"Take up your cross and follow me" is how one becomes a disciple of Christ.
Yes it is allegorical, literal in the case of Jesus, and it is something that anyone born in the shadow of the cross must take seriously, as much as it makes them cringe to think that that is what Christianity is all about.
It doesn't matter if it is allegorical and metaphorical in terms of instructions of how to carry out one's life. The abasement and self-sacrifice being requested of those who consider being Christ's disciples is a source of sheer terror.

"There is no greater love than to lay down one's life for the sake of a friend".
The message again is clear enough.

It is not surprising then that so many Christians have not lived up to the Christian standard. It is not surprising either that atheism, agnosticism and secularism began in Christian lands, because there is a lot more involved in Christianity than praying to Mecca six times a day, or abstaining from pork.

There is always the impulse on digesting the full import of the Christian message to run like Hades in the exact opposite direction from the cross. Assuredly, it is not talking donkeys that atheists are running from.

 

[OGM]

You're assuming he isn't going to invade the rest of Ukraine next...

It is the size of France. That would be a massive undertaking. Thou this time the other sections would not be so pro-Russia.

That remains to be seen, if Putin goes after Estonia next, then I guess we'll see whether or not Putin cares whether or not a country is a NATO member.

He could...though the problem with that is that he would be taking on 28 NATO countries simultaneously. The United States, Great Britain and France have nukes as well. So does he of course but would it be worth it for him?

That depends on the Europeans, if the rest of Europe imposes harsh sanctions, then Russia will suffer serious economic hardship. Otherwise, I think Russia's economy won't suffer because of this.

It will suffer even without the sanctions.

1. Crimea's tourism is drying up...very bad.
2. Banks are removing credit lines to the area for businesses
3. The area economy was not self sustaining and depended heavily on mainland Ukraine for vital services including electricity and fresh water.
4. In January the Crimean Parliament adopted a 2014 budget of about $540,000,000 of which about $300,000,000 was expected to come from the central government in Kiev. Crimean officials in recent days have said they now expect Moscow to fill the gap.
5. The currency will have to change.
6. The Peninsula is remote and there is no overland link between Russia and Crimea. Projected cost $3,000,000,000-$5,000,000,000 USD.
7. Countries that do not recognize the region will cut off flights.
8. New systems will have to integrate the different systems for property records, taxes, legal disputes and more.

It is one thing to annex...it is another to have to finance it for years.

That's if the United States decides to export more natural gas to Europe, remember that has to be signed off on by the Obama Administration, and until he's actually signed off on it, I wouldn't hold my breath.

Canada and Australia will also be increasing production.

 

[mindlight]

That could be very problematic for Russia because he now has to prop up Crimea. The more he takes on the more manpower and money it will cost. These areas are not exactly Frankfurt, New York, London or Paris. They need help and will need help for years to come. Also water and electricity will have to come from somewhere or be paid by someone.

I do not think Putin cares about that (he just spent $50bn on Sochi after all) and these problems will be resolved with time. You could put a gas pipeline through Kerch and I notice in the short term the Russians have seized some power stations. Rainfall over the Crimea is adequate though the Summer months require planning. So you could probably build something local. So long term no problem.

If the Ukraine joins NATO, Russia will have to think about annexing property in a NATO area. The irony is that what he did pushed the Ukraine further to the West than ever before because he is feared.

The ideal solution IMHO is for the Eastern provinces to return to Russia and for the Ukraine that is left to join NATO and the EU in the long run. Probably NATO before the EU cause corruption is a major issue. Then we have fairly settled borders on the Russian front and can work on trade stuff to benefit both sides of the border.

Many business will go under because the area is seen as more unstable. Less tourist will go there not. Not to mention the affect this is all having on the Russian stock market and Rubble value.

Another factor is that the United States, Canada and Australia is seeking to export more natural gas to Europe in the next few years. This will cut dependence on Russian natural gas.

The area is Russian and when you have such overwhelming control I do not think dissent and protest will be common features of the region. Also you underestimate the Russian love of the Crimea as a holiday destination. A great many Russian tourists may well replace or complement Western tourists.

 

[OGM]

I do not think Putin cares about that (he just spent $50bn on Sochi after all) and these problems will be resolved with time. You could put a gas pipeline through Kerch and I notice in the short term the Russians have seized some power stations. Rainfall over the Crimea is adequate though the Summer months require planning. So you could probably build something local. So long term no problem.

I was wondering because about 80% of the electricity and 80% of the fresh water come from the other part of the Ukraine. The two areas will have to become civil with each other and are still interdependent.

The ideal solution IMHO is for the Eastern provinces to return to Russia and for the Ukraine that is left to join NATO and the EU in the long run. Probably NATO before the EU cause corruption is a major issue. Then we have fairly settled borders on the Russian front and can work on trade stuff to benefit both sides of the border.

Putin might not like ANY part of the Ukraine going to NATO.

The area is Russian and when you have such overwhelming control I do not think dissent and protest will be common features of the region. Also you underestimate the Russian love of the Crimea as a holiday destination. A great many Russian tourists may well replace or complement Western tourists.

60 percent of the tourist are or should I say, were Ukraines, from the rest of the country. On a related note Putin approved a bridge connecting Russia with Crimea.

 

[HonestTruth]

The treaty, to my knowledge, is not a defense pact, nor a "guarantee." But I agree that harsh language is about all we can do short term. Unless NATO countries are worried, we should simply continue as is. We can certainly ante up to support the Ukranian economy and beef up military support.

Part of the problem is that some people believe Russia has invaded Ukraine and stolen Crimea. This even though the news media have clearly reported that Crimeans took a vote and the MAJORITY voted to re-join Russia. Neither the UN nor the European Union has stated that there was any irregularity in that vote.

Therefore, there is absolutely NOTHING that Obama nor the UN can do as the Charter guarantees everyone the right of self determination.


It is time for the pro war, pro interventionist crowd to stop asking, "what now, Obama". It is time for them to stop their ridiculous BLAME OBAMA campaign. It is time for them to stop their incessant attacks on Obama. And most especially in this regard, It is time for them to say, "congratulations" to Crimeans for deciding to make a peaceful and democratic transition back into Russian society.




CASE CLOSED

 

[Nithavela]

*snip*

Exactly, being atheist has nothing to do with the absence of evidence, all atheists and agnostics are in truth closet christians that just don't want to quit their sinfull lifestyles.

On the other hand, all those christians that betray their spouses with affairs, steal, lie and offer as much charity as a crowbar, those are of a completely different cut.

Also, I think you have a wrong impression of Islam, it also entails more things to do, rules and prohibitions than pray towards mecca and not eat pork.

 

[Bedford]

all atheists and agnostics are in truth closet christians that just don't want to quit their sinfull lifestyles.

What?

Where did you ever get this thought?

 

[Nithavela]

From Christians. It's what they often say, isn't it?

 

[Bedford]

From Christians. It's what they often say, isn't it?

I see....

It was a Poe. Got it.

It is sort of like some claiming there are no atheists in fox holes....