.

[Patmos]

It may be deception but is that the best you can do to judge the work of God everywhere that does not fit in with your theology?

From my research into the subject some of which I have been involved in and some which I seen with my own eyes, I can give you a hundred examples of God at work that are not deception. Do you really expect me to say I can't accept any of it as valid because you come up with a few isolated examples which are not typical.

No, I am not 'judging everywhere either'

and

No - accept what you like.

 

[aiki]

What makes you think that mistreatment from those who claim to be teachers is confined to a certain denom ... that outlandish blanket accusation flies in the face of logic...
I see it's time to unsubscribe

You've jumped to a conclusion I never made. No where do I state or imply that only charismatics have a problem with false teachers. But my focus in my comments was upon charismatics because they have, from what I can see, a much larger proportion of false teachers who are active among them than any other group along the evangelical Christian spectrum. So unsubscribe if you must, but understand the "outlandish blanket accusation" was of your making, not mine.

Selah.

 

[tiglathpileser]

No, I am not 'judging everywhere either' and No - accept what you like.

People who believe that you can accept what you like do not usually spend their time telling people they are wrong. Of course it does not apply to you and even if it did I could not say as such because you would report me for phishing or goading.

 

[tiglathpileser]

Discernment can only be used when there is an actual teaching to examine. Teaching can be compared and contrasted with scripture, but experience can't.

The gift of discernment in the nine gifts of the spirit is the ability to discern spirits.I can discern a Jezebel spirit or a spirit of rejection when someone is preaching. I don't have to deal with an actual teaching because I was taught what I needed to know long before I got involved in the discerning of spirits. The fact that I was taught enables me to discern spirits in the first place.

 

[tiglathpileser]

<Staff Edit>
Atheism is a religion that requires more faith than any other religion on earth. To believe that everything came from nothing is mind boggling and way beyond my ability to believe.

I watched a programme on TV tonight about the Great Barrier Reef in Australia. The sheer magnitude of it and the vastness of its diversity.

All came from nothing???? Totally impossible.

 

[tiglathpileser]

'Faith' is proportional to your 'need', specifically a state or condition of total helplessness. it is NOT A MEASUREMENT of (e.g. being active in church, or knowing a lot about God, bible study, etc). faith is 'response' to a ' helpless personal need'.

Faith is born out of our helplessness and, like Peter, cries out 'Lord, save me' (Mt14:30). your sense of helplessness always precedes faith.

this is the biblical concept. the definition changed throughout history as the church got institutionalized more and more and 'faith' generalized being used by other religions as well in their own versions of god(s).

but 'faith' is always at the personal level, and all the bible characters praised for their faith was in the backdrop of a very dire situation. and yes, you can include the thief on the cross and all the characters mentioned in Heb 11.

that is why simply saying the prayer to accept christ and received him by 'faith' in church services makes no sense if the person has no dire need, an understanding of one's helplessness from sin and his/her need for God to save him/her. it is not genuine. If there is no helpless need, there can be no response of faith=> to totally depend on God to help you in your helplessness.

Until you need God you don't need faith.

 

[tiglathpileser]

Putting forth a subjective experience as theological argument is not helpful; however, it is a way for you to attempt to win an argument because the subjective can't be argued against. Oh, I have a very good idea of what happened with that young man. I have an argument, but that's not my point. My point is, if scripture is not the agreed upon objective basis for truth, all debate will be fruitless.

I can assure you that there was nothing subjective about the experience. it was totally objective which was to release the young man from the demon spirits that were bothering him. And it wasn't a theological argument. It was an outworking of the teaching of Jesus and the disciples from the New Testament.

So do tell, what happened with that young man? I am always interested in the insights of people who were not there and did not see what happened and did not know the person concerned.

By the way, the scripture was the objective basis for the experience. Expelling demons are all over the scripture and no where does it say that when Jesus leaves the earth or when you have the cannon of scripture or when your denomination tells you their word overrides scripture you will no longer need to expel demons.

In fact, because I study culture and modern day apologetic, we need the expelling of demons more than ever as it is obvious that satan and his inglorious horde are being allowed to take over bit by bit with its main aim is to crush the truth so that he can pervert all that is good and wholesome.

Never has the scripture "calling good evil and evil good" been so true.

 

[tiglathpileser]

Are you sure? Since you're autistic and all, shouldn't you make an effort to verify what someone means, in stead of doing ambiguous projections, which may seem real in your mind? I mean, you're old and wise enough, right?

Your comment about my autism is a sure sign that you do not know how autism affects people.

 

[Hieronymus]

Your comment about my autism is a sure sign that you do not know how autism affects people.

Well, i'm a bit of a mental case myself, so don't take it too hard.
I would expect an experienced autist to verify before interpreting further, but i guess i was a little blunt anyway, so, alas, it didn't go to well...
To be clear: me calling it a "typical charismatic success story" was perhaps not the best choice of words...

 

[Patmos]

People who believe that you can accept what you like do not usually spend their time telling people they are wrong.

No idea what this means, sorry.

Of course it does not apply to you and even if it did I could not say as such because you would report me for phishing or goading.

Huh, what does not apply to me ? Would I report you - are you psychic ?

Phishing, goading ? You same some odd things.

EDIT - having looked up the thread (post 129) rather than come her from an alert.

tiglathpileser - You misunderstand me. I have no intention for reporting you for anything. I hope you believe that. Be blessed.

 

[Geralt]

well, there it is. the presence of 'need'.
the (awareness of) need for help precedes the need for God.

Until you need God you don't need faith.

 

[Hieronymus]

Your comment about my autism is a sure sign that you do not know how autism affects people.

I apologise for using it against you.

So this has happened to me before, in discussion with charismatics...
...and with Catholics, atheists, theosphists, JWs, ...

 

[Hieronymus]

So, i think it may be typical 'Laodicean' bias and experience that miracles of God are very rare indeed...
I mean the Christians in western culture.
On the other hand we have suspicious Christian trends, such as spiritual, prosperity and empowerment religion, where repentance (the turning form sinful self, towards holy God) is not popular, and people assume sanctification...
We should all realise people like Hinn and Copeland are in it for their own prosperity.
For themselves, their gospel may be reality...
Bentley i consider to be 'probably possessed'.

So there must be a range in between Bently and the lukewarm...

 

[AlexDTX]

After being involved in a few threads about knowing God through the spectacular e.g. hearing His voice, miracles, etc. I began to wonder about those of us who have followed our Lord with no signs and wonders. We have lost friends and family because of our faith, yet we have never heard the voice of God speak directly to us (other than through His Word, of course).

I was left with this question: Who actually has more faith, those who see (or hear) or those who don't?

Edit to rephrase the question.

Which requires more faith?

We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak; (2 Cor. 4:13).

The question should be, "Who has more unbelief?"

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

You've jumped to a conclusion I never made. No where do I state or imply that only charismatics have a problem with false teachers. But my focus in my comments was upon charismatics because they have, from what I can see, a much larger proportion of false teachers who are active among them than any other group along the evangelical Christian spectrum. So subscribe if you must, but understand the "outlandish blanket accusation" was of your making, not mine.

Selah.

Ya I was just kinda put off by your description of the atrosities

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I apologise for using it against you.

So this has happened to me before, in discussion with charismatics...
...and with Catholics, atheists, theosphists, JWs, ...

What? the autistism or the endeavor to hold an impersonal conversation?

 

[Hieronymus]

What? the autism

yes.

or the endeavour to hold an impersonal conversation?

That's allowed.

 

[aiki]

By the way, the scripture was the objective basis for the experience. Expelling demons are all over the scripture and no where does it say that when Jesus leaves the earth or when you have the cannon of scripture or when your denomination tells you their word overrides scripture you will no longer need to expel demons.

Matthew 7:21-23
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

I think this verse exposes the problem with charismatics who claim all they are doing is of and for God. They may be able to point to prophecies, and exorcisms, and various wonders as proof of their connection to God but when they stand before Him, He will say, "I never knew you." God is not in everything to which people may decide to attach His name - however miraculous the things may be. The equation among charismatics seems to be: If it is extraordinary and done in Jesus' name, it has to be of God. Well, as Jesus demonstrates above, this equation is horribly and destructively false!

Faith is not constructed out of unusual experiences we decide to pin on God. Faith is a gift of God (Ro. 12:3), strengthened and enlarged by our obedience to His commands (1Jn. 2:3) given to us in His word, and deepened by a patient and enduring trust in His promises to us. Faith may be bolstered by God's providence and miraculous action but many of the Giants of the Faith listed in Hebrews 11 did not live to see the fulfillment of God's promises to them. They "walked by faith, not by sight" and in so doing demonstrated a greater and godlier faith than those who seek constant confirmation of their relationship with God through shivers, and goosebumps, and tongues, and "healings" and such like.

The following story from the Gospels makes my point:

Matthew 8:7-10
7 And Jesus said to him, "I will come and heal him."
8 The centurion answered and said, "Lord, I am not worthy that You should come under my roof. But only speak a word, and my servant will be healed.
9 For I also am a man under authority, having soldiers under me. And I say to this one, 'Go,' and he goes; and to another, 'Come,' and he comes; and to my servant, 'Do this,' and he does it."
10 When Jesus heard it, He marveled, and said to those who followed, "Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel!

The centurion had never met Jesus before, he had no concrete, personal demonstration of Christ's power to heal and yet he was confident Christ could simply say the word and his servant would be healed. And how does Christ describe the faith of the centurion that existed separate from any personal demonstration of God's power in his life? "I have not found such great faith in all of Israel!"

Selah.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

The equation among charismatics seems to be: If it is extraordinary and done in Jesus' name, it has to be of God. Well, as Jesus demonstrates above, this equation is horribly and destructively false!

Vert true.

Some have said as much in another thread I began recently: http://www.christianforums.com/thre...ay-conversation.7938830/page-37#post-69490276

 

[sunlover1]

After being involved in a few threads about knowing God through the spectacular e.g. hearing His voice, miracles, etc. I began to wonder about those of us who have followed our Lord with no signs and wonders. We have lost friends and family because of our faith, yet we have never heard the voice of God speak directly to us (other than through His Word, of course).

I was left with this question: Who actually has more faith, those who see (or hear) or those who don't?

Edit to rephrase the question.

Which requires more faith?

Who could know the answer?
I have no idea how much faith it takes to believe in God without hearing from Him
I have no idea how much faith it takes TO hear from Him.
What's the tool to measure and what might become of it.
There is also such a thing as a "gift" of faith...