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[Peter J Barban]

I'll start with my experience with God's voice.

The Why
The Bible says that God speaks through prophecy for to build up the believers. Likewise, God speaks to me to build me up and help me build others up, certainly not to add to/change the Bible.

Why me? That is God's plan from before time began and not based on my merit or ability. The best thing I can do is go along with it. I don't claim that my spirituality makes me able to hear God better than others.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I was saying YIKES to
Hearing (prophesying?) something that can't be backed up in scripture - ie: special revelation

Yes, I know. There is some that in this thread. It's not only cult leaders who do it.

 

[Peter J Barban]

The When:

About half the time, God speaks to me when I am not expecting/seeking. Often, I will be in worship or prayer.

Sometimes, God speaks to comfort me when I am in distress. Other times, God challenges me when I am wrong about something.

While I can give you many stories, since I have been serving God for 35 years, they amount to less that one a year. I certainly can't hear from God whenever I want.

I do know that my hearing from God increased a lot when I joined the mission field. Also, God seems to talk to me more when there is a particularly difficult work God has given me to do.

Basically, when God is silent, my life is peaceful. When God speaks, there is or will be trouble.

 

[swordsman1]

How do you think that God speaks to us?
I mean using tons of Scripture verses to show how.

God speaks to us through scripture. There are dozens of verses that say this. Here are just are few: Ps 19:7-11, Ps 119:105, 2 Tim 3.16-17, 1 Thes 2:13, Col 3:16, James 1:25, 2 Pet 1:19, Heb 4:12, Matt 7:24, 1 John 1:1-4, Rom 1:16, John 8:47, Luke 11:28, Prov 30:5, Ps 119:18, Ps 119:24.

Now where are all the verses that says God speaks to us through feelings or voices in our minds?

OOPS! You added the word "Scripture" to that.
He never said my sheep hear the words of Christ in Scripture.
We can't really "assume" that's what He meant can we?

Neither did he say my sheep will hear His voice in their heads.

Or why not 'assume' He meant just what He said, that His sheep
(and we do know that's us) HEAR His VOICE.
If it's like Sheep and a Shepard. Do the sheep read books?
Or do they listen to their Shepherds voice speaking right to them?

You hit the nail on the head. "My sheep hear My voice" is clearly metaphorical as is the rest of the verse. It is bad exegesis to say that it is all metaphorical apart from one little bit that we should take literally and we really hear his voice speaking to us (telepathically in our heads even).

To be absolutely certain of it's meaning, Jesus repeats the metaphor throughout the chapter:

John 10:4 "the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out."
John 10:16 "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd."​

It is all clearly metaphorical. The shepherd speaks to his sheep and they follow him to safety and join the rest of the flock. It is not saying we will literally hear his voice, just as Jesus is not literally a shepherd, nor are we literally a flock of sheep.

Nor is it a voice in our heads or some divinely given thought. If it is literal as you claim we would expect to hear Christ's voice audibly via our ears, just as the sheep did, not telepathically in our heads.

Jesus then says "and they follow me". Do we follow Christ because we hear a voice in our heads, but because of his words and teachings recorded in scripture?

If you are going to take "hear his voice" literally then you should also take other references to God's voice literally. Here are just a small selection of such verses:

Deut 9:23 "Like the nations that the Lord makes to perish before you, so you shall perish; because you would not listen to the voice of the Lord your God."​

Were the Israelites barred from entering the promised land because they didn't listen to God's voice in their minds, or because they didn't believe the recorded promises given by God?

Judges 2:20 "So the anger of the Lord burned against Israel, and He said, “Because this nation has transgressed My covenant which I commanded their fathers and has not listened to My voice". ​

Was the Lord angry with Israel because they were not obeying an inner voice or because they disobeyed his written commandments?

2 Kings 18:12 "because they did not obey the voice of the Lord their God, but transgressed His covenant, even all that Moses the servant of the Lord commanded; they would neither listen nor do it."
​

The "voice" here is clearly metaphorical for God's commandments.

Psalm 103:20 "Mighty in strength, who perform His word, Obeying the voice of His word!" ​

Clearly "voice" is scripture here.

Jer 9:13 "The Lord said, “Because they have forsaken My law which I set before them, and have not obeyed My voice nor walked according to it". ​

Feelings or God's law?

Jer 26:12-13 "The Lord sent me to prophesy against this house and against this city all the words that you have heard. Now therefore amend your ways and your deeds and obey the voice of the Lord your God". ​

Inner thoughts or previous commands given by prophecy?

Jer 40:2-3 "The Lord your God promised this calamity against this place; 3 and the Lord has brought it on and done just as He promised. Because you people sinned against the Lord and did not listen to His voice, therefore this thing has happened to you". ​

Did they disobey their impressions, or previously given prophecy?

Dan 9:10 "nor have we obeyed the voice of the Lord our God, to walk in His teachings which He set before us through His servants the prophets."
​

An inner voice or written teachings and prophecies?

Rev 3:19 "Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me."
​

Does Jesus literally knock at the door, speak to us, and dine with us? Or is it a metaphorical picture of salvation by hearing the gospel?

 

[swordsman1]

Do you also reject the account of Ananias talking with God prior to him baptizing Saul?

You see, that is a NORMAL conversation of a servant of God with God...

Notice how CASUAL it is:

Acts 9:10-16
And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias;
and to him said the Lord in a vision, "Ananias".
And he said, "Behold, I am here, Lord."
And the Lord said unto him,
"Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight,
and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus:
for, behold, he prayeth,
And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in,
and putting his hand on him,
that he might receive his sight."

So you can see that the Lord came to His servant, Ananias, and addressed him by name, and Ananias responded in words to Him, and the Lord gave him His Will for him to do...

And Ananias argued against the Lord's will for him:

Then Ananias answered,
"Lord, I have heard by many of this man,
how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
And here he hath authority from the chief priests
to bind all that call on thy name."

A perfectly reasonable objection...
Which God answered:

But the Lord said unto him,
"Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me,
to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings,
and the children of Israel:
For I will shew him how great things
he must suffer for my name's sake."

So you can see that converse with God is Biblically, after the Resurrection, and during the time of the writing of the Acts of the Apostles, rather ordinary. Ananias was not knocked flat like the Apostles were on Mt Tabor seeing the Lord come in Power in his Transfiguration... He questioned the command, got the answer he needed, and obeyed the Lord... THAT is how it works - A fair amount of the time... Saul was killing Christians... Ordinarily, one will not argue with God... But simple asking of God what one desires to receive, be it an object or an understanding, is simply ordinary for Christians... And many here do so on a minute by minute basis... Not exactly believing in miracles, but instead relying on them! Regularly...

And Paul all the time, in askings, in visions, in all manner of administering the Gifts of God... The MARRIAGE OF THE LAMB is first and foremost a RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD... And it can take a LOT of different forms, but converse with God is pretty basic and rudimentary... And it comes normally in the times of the prayers, and in visions, which replace words... As with Ananias above...

Arsenios

I specifically asked for verses other than historical events. Just because Ananias, Peter, Paul, Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah, or any other prophet audibly heard God's voice in unique historical circumstances, doesn't mean that it is normative for us to do so. Is it normative for us to expect tongues of fire landing on our heads, or to raise the dead as Paul did, or to heal people with our shadows as Peter did? In any case the verse you quoted was a prophetic vision, not everyday thoughts planted in Ananias's head.

If God speaking to us by inner voices is normative for all believers there will be clear didactic verses applicable to us all teaching this. Where are they?

 

[Peter J Barban]

The How:

I experience the voice of God as a thought inside my head that is clearly not my own. Even though God communicates in my language, he sometimes expresses things in a way that I would not; using emotions that I would not connect to the same message.

For example, one of my strongest experiences was when I was sitting in the balcony of my church in Taiwan, about 20 years ago. The pastor, who I had no problem with, began bitterly complaining about past injustice in Taiwan, (the 228 Incident). He was advocating for justice against his side's enemies.

However, in the middle of his sermon, God spoke to me in a very strong and angry voice, "How dare he! How dare he speak this way in MY House!" Suddenly, my body was shaking with anger and I had to make an effort not to rush the stage and rebuke the church, which liked the message.

(One reason that I believe that message was from God is that I did not consider a church meeting place to be "God's house." Another reason that I believe the message is from God is that I have no feelings for the 228 Incident.)

I decided to write a letter to the pastor and explain what happened. After much research, prayer and discernment, I discoved a stronghold of racial division and unforgiveness in the entire denomination in Taiwan which was always there, but I had not noticed in my first years at the church.

After having the letter translated to Chinese, we had a meeting, just me, the head pastor and about 5-10 junior pastors. I told him about my experence of God's anger and that he needed to forgive his enemies. The pastor proclaimed that he could not forgive until the other side, basically, the entire ruling government, confessed their sin. I told him that he should forgive first, just as Jesus died on the cross for our sins before we asked him. The pastor concluded that He would do that only if God spoke such directly to him. I don't think that he ever believed me but at least he never spoke this way in the church again (so far as I know).

I spent the next year teaching about Biblical forgiveness in the church. That is when I discovered how deep the bitterness of our most respected and even godly leaders was over political oppression that occurred long before I arrived in Taiwan.

It was a painful time for myself and many others, and while some good was done, much good was resisted. None of this, of course, compares with the words and deeds of the apostles and prophets of scripture.

 

[sunlover1]

I was saying YIKES to
Hearing (prophesying?) something that can't be backed up in scripture - ie: special revelation.. Joseph Smith, cult leaders, etc.

I'm sorry, I still don't understand.

Prophesying can't be backed up in Scripture?

And no one is talking about 'special revelation' except thatbrian.
God gives me personal direction and warnings for me and others.
WOW and WOK and prophesy, these are all Scriptural practices.
You have not read about them in the Bible?

 

[sunlover1]

I specifically asked for verses other than historical events. Just because Ananias, Peter, Paul, Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah, or any other prophet audibly heard God's voice in unique historical circumstances, doesn't mean that it is normative for us to do so. Is it normative for us to expect tongues of fire landing on our heads, or to raise the dead as Paul did, or to heal people with our shadows as Peter did? In any case the verse you quoted was a prophetic vision, not everyday thoughts planted in Ananias's head.

If God speaking to us by inner voices is normative for all believers there will be clear didactic verses applicable to us all teaching this. Where are they?

Then we can toss most of Scripture out as just an example of how God dealt with folks 'historically'.

 

[swordsman1]

Then we can toss most of Scripture out as just an example of how God dealt with folks 'historically'.

Not at all. Just because miraculous events happened at certain crucial times in biblical history, doesn't mean we should expect them to happen to us.

 

[sunlover1]

The claim that you use scripture is interesting. I have addressed the scripture you use and exegetically or contextually demonstrate that your are using it out of context. Your reply is not counter exegesis, but a complaint that I never use scripture.

I felt that your "demonstrations" were more of a 'twisting' of Scripture
to make it say what fit your own paradigms (God doesn't speak to His
kids, except through scripture)

I do understand this claim that you use scripture and I do not.

I am not familiar with this claim you speak of,
please help me with a link.

What you are really saying is that we use scripture in two totally different ways. We believe in a historical, grammatical, contextual approach to scriptures. Your use of scriptures focuses on one word or phrase taken out of the propositional context.

No, my understandings come from 25+ years of Bible study and revelation from God.
So not one word or phrase, but the entire counsel of God.
If i USE a passage, that doesn't mean I base my understandings on one passage.
it just means i was lazy or assuming everyone 'gets' it.

I know that in the past, you agreed with something vaguely close to sola fide,

Which post are you referencing? but I continued to wonder if you would be consistent in that doctrine.
Would you sign a doctrinal stated that calls for salvation to be by faith? ......I would not. Unless the statement asks for salvation by faith "alone" I would not sign it.[/QUOTE]
argumentum ad hominem doesn't help to resolve the issue.

 

[sunlover1]

Not at all. Just because miraculous events happened at certain crucial times in biblical history, doesn't mean we should expect them to happen to us.

I don't consider Father's speaking to their children as "miraculous" I consider it conversation/fellowship.
Evidently you feel our communication should be us speaking to Him and Him handing us the Book
to find what He might say in our circumstance.
Well you're right, we're light years apart in our understanding.

 

[Arsenios]

Luke 6:26 Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.

That's the Truth!

I am simply making a friend...

Thank-you for your care...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Many believe that God speaks to them, because. . . God speaks to them.

When God speaks to you, you will too!

But for right now, it is outside your experience...

Yet God can give sight even to the "blind from birth"ers...

I KNOW, because I was one of them - An atheist for my first 36 years, and I knew for a fact that people talking to God were all psycho's suffering delusions... I was ugly toward Christians...

The Gospel is a command: Repent and be baptized!

It is given for a reason: For the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand!

That means here and now, and the Marriage of the Lamb not just some deeply held idea of OURS...

It is to KNOW the One True God, and His Son, Jesus Christ...

We have been discipling this for 2000 years...

Arsenios

 

[Gwen-is-new!]

I'm sorry, I still don't understand.

Prophesying can't be backed up in Scripture?

And no one is talking about 'special revelation' except thatbrian.
God gives me personal direction and warnings for me and others.
WOW and WOK and prophesy, these are all Scriptural practices.
You have not read about them in the Bible?

WOW and WOK? Sorry if I missed some posted. Yes, I try to study the bible on my own (illuminated by the power of the Holy Spirit, of course), but I do get help from man a lot, and this would summarize what I've always believed concerning this: http://www.gotquestions.org/prophets-today.html

 

[sunlover1]

WOW and WOK? Sorry if I missed some posted. Yes, I try to study the bible on my own (illuminated by the power of the Holy Spirit, of course), but I do get help from man a lot, and this would summarize what I've always believed concerning this: http://www.gotquestions.org/prophets-today.html

WOW= Word of Wisdom
WOK= Word of knowledge.
I'm not sure why those guys think that God would STOP doing those thigns
or when, but I look at the 'reason' they were walking in these manifestations
of the Holy Spirit. And then work from there.
Perhaps those men felt that it was for show.
Scripture says that the manifestations of the Spirit are for "The common good" (v 7)
IOW, God gave these gifts so we could all get helped when we needed it,
AND that we might be united! (V25 That there be no division)

Here's the entire chapter and I'll highlight ALL of the "gifts" (manifestations
of God through His body) in RED
This is a great read, and it's really self explanatory imo.
It's when men try to twist it to mean what they can wrap
their minds around, is when it becomes confusing.

Spiritual Gifts: Unity in Diversity
12 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be ignorant:
2 You know that you were Gentiles, carried away to these dumb idols, however you were led.
3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

4 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all.
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all:

8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit,
to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit,
9 to another faith by the same Spirit,
to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit,
10 to another the working of miracles,
to another prophecy,
to another discerning of spirits,
to another different kinds of tongues,
to another the interpretation of tongues.
11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things,
distributing to each one individually as He wills.

Unity and Diversity in One Body
12 For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. 14 For in fact the body is not one member but many.

15 If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body? 16 And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body? 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling? 18 But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased. 19 And if they were all one member, where would the body be?

20 But now indeed there are many members, yet one body. 21 And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” 22 No, much rather, those members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary. 23 And those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow greater honor; and our unpresentable partshave greater modesty, 24 but our presentable parts have no need. But God composed the body, having given greater honor to that part which lacks it, 25 that there should be no schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another. 26 And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; or if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.

27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. 28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way.

 

[Gwen-is-new!]

Well, I believe that God would even help someone to remember butter.
I know it's not His ideal. He wants us to "Grow up" in Him.

Yesterday I was feeling frustrated with my mom - just the usual she can't say nice things, but does nice things (material). That might not sound too bad, but the things she does aren't really nice - they are, I believe, indirect insults and criticism's disguised in a "gift" or "deed".

Anyway, I was conversing with the Lord (venting and whining really, not sure how He puts up with me.. oh yeah, grace).. and He basically put the image of an other older woman from my church into my mind, and then He basically asked me, "would you get upset if she wanted to give you a new tablecloth"? "Would you get offended if she gave you something you didn't ask for?".. and of course not! I might mention this particular woman that came to mind has never tried to give me anything, I barely know her. He gives me a gentle conviction and He almost always puts it in question form, that is how I know it's HIM.. a question that gets me thinking, a question that pokes (burns really) my flesh, yet ALWAYS gives me peace when I accept it and receive it, and let it humble me.

Gratitude, patience, honor, and simply choosing to believe the best in someone.. this is what He told me, and it can easily be backed up in scripture Now, I do believe He pours out favor on His children and that might be the best parking spot at Dunkin Donuts - there is a balance between keeping God in a box, and heresy

 

[Arsenios]

I specifically asked for verses other than historical events. Just because Ananias, Peter, Paul, Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah, or any other prophet audibly heard God's voice in unique historical circumstances, doesn't mean that it is normative for us to do so.

Why do you think God makes sure historical events get narrated in Scripture?

Is it normative for us to expect tongues of fire landing on our heads, or to raise the dead as Paul did, or to heal people with our shadows as Peter did? In any case the verse you quoted was a prophetic vision, not everyday thoughts planted in Ananias's head.

Just another day in the Life of Christ...

If God speaking to us by inner voices is normative for all believers there will be clear didactic verses applicable to us all teaching this. Where are they?

The POSSIBILITY is normative - What does the Psalmist write?

"But as for me, I am poor and needy, O God come unto mine aid..."

So some of us are just higher maintenance Believers, do ya think?

Arsenios

 

[faroukfarouk]

We have our thoughts, the things that the enemy puts in and God's thoughts.

This is why it's so good to combine prayer with Scripture reading because then our minds may be centred on the Lord Jesus and His will and ways, and our minds don't wander so much.

 

[Winter_Rose]

This is why it's so good to combine prayer with Scripture reading because then our minds may be centred on the Lord Jesus and His will and ways, and our minds don't wander so much.

Absolutely.

 

[sunlover1]

Yesterday I was feeling frustrated with my mom - just the usual she can't say nice things, but does nice things (material). That might not sound too bad, but the things she does aren't really nice - they are, I believe, indirect insults and criticism's disguised in a "gift" or "deed".

I'm so sorry that you have to live this way,
and so happy you have Father to help you!

Anyway, I was conversing with the Lord (venting and whining really, not sure how He puts up with me.. oh yeah, grace).. and He basically put the image of an other older woman from my church into my mind, and then He basically asked me, "would you get upset if she wanted to give you a new tablecloth"? "Would you get offended if she gave you something you didn't ask for?".. and of course not! I might mention this particular woman that came to mind has never tried to give me anything, I barely know her. He gives me a gentle conviction and He almost always puts it in question form, that is how I know it's HIM.. a question that gets me thinking, a question that pokes (burns really) my flesh, yet ALWAYS gives me peace when I accept it and receive it, and let it humble me.

Gratitude, patience, honor, and simply choosing to believe the best in someone.. this is what He told me, and it can easily be backed up in scripture Now, I do believe He pours out favor on His children and that might be the best parking spot at Dunkin Donuts - there is a balance between keeping God in a box, and heresy

Thanks for sharing this, it helped me too!
(Dealing with passive agressive NPD folks in my life)
This is good stuff Father gave you!